Mrs.SolaFide
Puritan Board Freshman
But choosing NOT to do it is sin, isn't it?
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Originally posted by 5solasmom
Colleen, I am not sure you are speaking directly to me, but there are a few things I will try to address in the time I have to do so.
Originally posted by 5solasmom
You may wonder what this has to do with obediance....EVERYTHING...because it all has to do with the heart.
EXACTLY. Obedience IS true obedience when our hearts obey. If we relegate "obedience" to mean doing something someone tells you to regardless of their or our sinful attitude in it, we are defining obedience as merely EXTERNAL ACTION.
Originally posted by 5solasmom
At what point are you going to rebel. And are you willing to risk your marriage for it? Don't say that this is petty stuff and not marriage breaking...because the attitudes that go with it generally lead to such.
Marriages are not solely dependant on the wife. She is not the maker or breaker of a marriage. This kind of mindset relegates the failure or success of a marriage fully on the wife. I am not speaking of divorce here.
Originally posted by 5solasmom
Also, there is a segment of this discussion that is being ignored. No one implied that when a husband speaks that the wife "snaps to". It has been stated several times, that the "request" is open to discussion...and generally does.
The initial discussion centered on her obeying regardless. I did not say anything about someone saying "snap to it". I was speaking to the posts which said she should obey in everything.
Originally posted by BJClark
5solasmom,
Obedience IS true obedience when our hearts obey. If we relegate "obedience" to mean doing something someone tells you to regardless of their or our sinful attitude in it, we are defining obedience as merely EXTERNAL ACTION.
When I read some things I wonder if people think when a women becomes a wife she leaves the rest of her brain and Who she is in Christ as a CHRISTAIN at the front door.
Originally posted by BJClark
The Bible tells me as a Christian, of which I am first even before I am a wife, I am to make my Yes mean Yes, and my No mean No. It also says to do everything without complaining. If my husband were to ask me to do something that I really don't want to do and I do it because I feel I would be sinning by not being the submissive wife to every word, then I am still sinning. As I'm not doing it because I WANT to do it to please Him, but out of obligation.
Originally posted by BJClark
It most certainly has to do with the heart, Even God does not want us to serve Him because we think we are some how "obligated" to do so, that's not love.
God does not NEED US to serve Him, He WANTS us to with a JOYFUL heart, without complaining, without feeling pressured to do so, without feeling as if we are some how sinning if we don't. God does not in anyway want us to feel forced to do anything we don't want to do which is why He gave us Free will to choose. We are not puppets on a string. But, He wants us to CHOOSE to serve Him, He wants us to WANT to serve Him out of our Love for Him, out of the very Love He has placed in us through the Holy Spirit.
if you don't want to serve in a ministry then DON'T, God isn't going to pressure us to do something we do not want to do, He will change our want to if we allow Him to do so, but He won't force or pressure us to serve.
Originally posted by BJClark
And as a marriage is supposed to show Christ's relationship with the Church, it should be the same way, you submit because you WANT to submit, You do things for your spouse not just because they said too, but
because you WANT to out of your love for them, anything less is not love.
Originally posted by LadyFlynt
Wow! Thanks for the insult! Believe me, my brain is fully functioning. What you think is being a doormat isactually called being a servant. There is a difference. As wives we are "helpmeets". We are not to seek our own. However, this does not mean we are mindless idiots either. In fact, I believe it takes a great deal of wisdom to be a proper helpmeet.
Originally posted by LadyFlynt
As Christine stated...Christ said that he would rather the cup be taken from him...but he submitted to the Will of the Father. And it sounds like the love you are talking about is the emotional love...not the love found in Scripture. Emotions ebb and flow. They change. I don't always "feel" like "loving" my husband or others. However, I "Love" them as in that I do that which is commanded of my by God...I support, take care of, want and do what is best for, etc. This is the love that is commanded...this is the love that Christ showed when he died on the cross.
Originally posted by bond-servant
Love is a commitment, backed by actions, not necessarily feelings
Originally posted by Puritanhead
You women crack me up...
Originally posted by 5solasmom
The rabbit trails and tone within some comments on this thread are enough for me to quietly step out. My original questions and comments on the issue have still not been addressed. I am thankful that I am accepted in Christ, not by what I do or don't do, but by His blood alone. I am grateful my husband is the head and leader of our home, and I strive to submit to him with a cheerful heart. I fail, he fails. Praise God for His mercies. :bigsmile:
Originally posted by BJClark
Romans922,
I am not in that situation to know at this time, but I could image there would be a few times in life with a spouse where a husband would ask something of his wife.
Actually, my husband wouldn't ask me or anyone to do something he's not willing to do himself, his idea of a leadership is someone who leads BY example, not dictatorship. And he looks at it that if he isn't willing to do it, then he isn't going to ask someone else to.
Not even Christ asks us to do things He wasn't willing to do Himself, (and not that my husband is Christ, he is Christ-like in this way) I can't imagine my husband asking me to do something he isn't willing to do himself.
So I'm curious what can you imagine a husband could ask his wife to do that he, himself wouldn't be willing to do?
I realize your not in that situation, but if you can imagine it can happen, you must have some ideas of what those things would be. So what are they? What things can you imagine asking a wife to do that you, yourself would be unwilling to do?
[Edited on 9-27-2005 by BJClark]
[Edited on 9-27-2005 by BJClark]
Originally posted by wsw201
God commands men to love their wives, which to me means not asking them to do stupid things like dancing down the street singing at the top of her lungs. And no, it would not be a sin to refuse.
Originally posted by Romans922
Originally posted by BJClark
Romans922,
I am not in that situation to know at this time, but I could image there would be a few times in life with a spouse where a husband would ask something of his wife.
Actually, my husband wouldn't ask me or anyone to do something he's not willing to do himself, his idea of a leadership is someone who leads BY example, not dictatorship. And he looks at it that if he isn't willing to do it, then he isn't going to ask someone else to.
Not even Christ asks us to do things He wasn't willing to do Himself, (and not that my husband is Christ, he is Christ-like in this way) I can't imagine my husband asking me to do something he isn't willing to do himself.
So I'm curious what can you imagine a husband could ask his wife to do that he, himself wouldn't be willing to do?
I realize your not in that situation, but if you can imagine it can happen, you must have some ideas of what those things would be. So what are they? What things can you imagine asking a wife to do that you, yourself would be unwilling to do?
[Edited on 9-27-2005 by BJClark]
[Edited on 9-27-2005 by BJClark]
I can imagine myself asking my wife to do something I would never do because I am a sinner. I never said it would be right or loving to do so. It would probably not be loving or right (but not necessarily, but that doesn't really matter), but the whole point of me saying that...is to ask the question 'What would you do?' or for me, "What would my wife do if I asked her to do something that I wouldn't do (hopefully I wouldn't do that, but what if I actually did do that)...what would she then do?" I would hope that she would obey me and moreso Christ (in not sinning, but also in obeying her husband because Christ has made him (husband) to be her head). That is the point: what would you do? obey or not obey...submit or not submit?
Originally posted by BJClark
LadyFlynt,
I guess that would depend, on whether you feel a person continues to have free will (or freedom in Christ) on what choices they make within their Christian walk or not. Which is why we are more Free in Christ than we are without Him.
I am no longer under the LAW, I am under Grace. I make the choice to live within the Law or not, but I am not controlled by the law.
I certainly have a choice in deciding to get up and go to Church on Sunday Morning or not. I know that if I don't go, *I* miss out on a Blessing in my life. However, I still have a choice in the matter and I'm not going to feel guilty if I choose not to go one Sunday. Why? Because I know it is my choice to spend that time with God or Not.
I am even free to sin if I so choose, does it mean there will not be consequences if I make that choice? No, it doesn't, but I still have the freedom of choice or 'free will' to do so.
Jesus actually had a CHOICE on whether or not He died on the Cross of not. Notice as was mentioned above "not MY WILL, but thine" That clearly shows me HE had a CHOICE on whether to the Cross or not, and it shows me the freedoms I also have in Him.
My salvation is not dependant upon anything *I* do or don't do, however the depth of relationship I have with God is. God loves me whether I am living in sin or not, He loves me whether I am in Church on Sunday morning or not, His love for me is UNCONDITIONAL--it is not based on any set conditions being met on my part, it is all about HIM.
However, in order to BE in a relationship with Christ, I must meet certain conditions, admit I am a sinner, confess that sin, repent of that sin and seek God's forgiveness. But those are the conditions of relationship not God's love nor do they have anything to do with the depth of relationship I have with Christ. It is the choices I make on a day to day basis within my relationship with Christ that make the relationship stronger or not.
in other words, as a Christian, I have the freedom to choose what kind of relationship I want with God and how strong that relationship is, I personally choose to live within God's will and not my own, but I also acknowledge it is MY choice to do that and God is in no way forcing me to serve Him, love Him, or do anything for Him that I do not wish to do.
Just as with Christ going to the Cross, He made a Choice to submit His will to God's will, God didn't force Him to do that. Remember, though He was fully God, He was also Fully Man. And as Christians, we have just as much of the Holy Spirit within us as Christ did and yet, we can still make our own choices. Good or Bad.
Originally posted by Romans922
So, because of Christian Liberty...(in your definition of it, you can do whatever you want) so...where sin increased, grace abouned all th emore, that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be? - Romans 5:20-6:2a
Christian Liberty doesn't allow us (or give us free will) to do whatever we want to do (sin or not sin). It gives us liberty FROM SIN! "For freedom Christ has set us free (from sin); stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery (which is sin)." Italics added for clarification of context.
[Edited on 9-27-2005 by Romans922]
Originally posted by 5solasmom
Those who say it doesn't matter if the hubby is in sin or not, but that what matters is that the wife submits if it isn't sin for her ~
The idea that a woman is not in sin by doing something foolish at the demand of her husband (assuming his intent is to abuse his leadership, showing clear disregard and unconcern for his wife's HEART) is hard for me to grasp. I wonder....is she encouraging HIS sin by doing so? in my opinion, this isn't an across the board issue. There will be times she can submit to something even knowing her dh has a wrong motive etc. but there are times when she must not.
Originally posted by 5solasmom
Let's take another example. Husband is a drunk. TELLS wife to drink with him, not get "drunk"" but have some wine while he get's blasted. So according to this mindset, she is to submit (assuming here that she has no "conviction" against general alcohol consumption) because partaking alchohol is not a sin (drunkeness is), therefore for her, she must submit to his request.
Originally posted by 5solasmom
The argument that a wife submits in "everything" regardless of the man's sin in requiring her to is an interesting argument being that the word used to support this thought does not exclude those things that are sinful....we obviously (and rightly) imply it based upon the rest of scripture...which is my point - the word itself does not literally MEAN "everything"... another example of why we do not isolate scripture from context or build a theology around an obscure verse etc. So we already KNOW and agree that it can't mean "everything". When I have time, I plan to study this entire passage out more deeply, but this is my initial thought on it.
Originally posted by 5solasmom
The marriage relationship is compared to Christ and the Church. That's where we look to come to a proper view of headshiip and submission. It is not controller/controllee. Relationship is inherrent.
Originally posted by 5solasmom
Where is the biblical support for the idea that "a wife is to submit if it is not sin, otherwise, her refusal to submit to any request not inherently 'sinful' IS sin, regardless of the husbands sin in requiring it"?
Originally posted by 5solasmom
Sin is not OUTSIDE of our hearts. If my dh told me to dance and sing in the street, it would hurt me that he would expect me to, as I would feel he does not care or love me very much to make me do such a thing, cause me extreme embarrassement and shame, and seriously mar my testimony for Christ to those who see it. But I guess, because those are heart issues or problems/sins in me (because I should do it cheerfully regardless), I must "get over it", since the act itself is devoid of sin (ie. dancing and singing in the street is not sin) and do it anyway, or I would be a rebellious and disobedient wife.
Originally posted by 5solasmom
I don't get it (and for those who may be wondering, neither does my dh).
Well, then I guess I could only tell you what we all have to do in that situation. Pray that the Lord changes your heart and attitude. We all deal with it, we aren't perfect, but it doesn't excuse us from at the very least obeying externally while we work on the internal. Scripture speaks much about obligations. This prevents us from making excuses for wrong actions based on emotions.
Here is where you are leaning away from reformed teachings. Proverbs 16:9 "a man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps" There is also a verse that states that no man seeketh after the Lord. (having trouble with my SwordSearcher right now) and that it is the Lord that draweth the heart. God isn't sitting there just waiting for us to WANT Him. He actually CREATES that desire.
We are not puppets on a string. But, He wants us to CHOOSE to serve Him, He wants us to WANT to serve Him out of our Love for Him, out of the very Love He has placed in us through the Holy Spirit.
As Christine stated...Christ said that he would rather the cup be taken from him...but he submitted to the Will of the Father. And it sounds like the love you are talking about is the emotional love...not the love found in Scripture. Emotions ebb and flow. They change. I don't always "feel" like "loving" my husband or others. However, I "Love" them as in that I do that which is commanded of my by God...I support, take care of, want and do what is best for, etc. This is the love that is commanded...this is the love that Christ showed when he died on the cross.
As far as being a doormat vs servant...there are women on here who DO understand in similar manners that you do. However, do not let what was FORCED on you affect how you view scriptural commands. We are speaking of requests here. Neither are we saying that you have to obey under ALL conditions. We stated the condition...would it be sinning against God to obey your husband in his request?
I'm still a bit concerned though. You stated that Christ could have chosen to disobey the Father. How so, considering that the Son and the Father are in constant agreement? It is not possible for the trinity to disagree when they are one. How is it that you would view that Christ's "decision" was what all was dependant upon? Did not God predetermine all things as they would happen from before the beginning?