Wives Submit to Husbands?

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calgal

Puritan Board Graduate
I find it very humbling that my wife submits to me and feel the burden of that responsibility keenly. It is not to be taken lightly.

I would almost say that we err no the side of encouraging men to be too macho and running roughshod over everyone.
But that is likewise culture (in this case local), not biblical manhood. It is a perversion. Christlike manhood is realizing that we are servant leaders but with authority granted us by God, it is incredibly empowering to realize that my position in our family is God-given and God-authorized. It gives great power and authority but the burden of responsibility is likewise enormous.

Our culture is feminizing the men to where many 25 year old 'men' are nothing but giant, emasculated children and the women have been taught to be everything a woman should not be. Thankfully, we serve a sovereign God.
Exactly. And sadly this is the norm and it gives the more um aggressive ladies an excuse to say "we need to be deacons/elders" then the cycle continues ever downward.
 

ZackF

Puritan Board Graduate
Given the times we live in, I am surprised the sermon wasn't condemned as hate speech or at least accused of inciting hate.
 

calgal

Puritan Board Graduate
I agree with Montanablue, but I would add that masculinity can be defined different ways. Yes, the culture has an obsession with teaching boys and men to be "masculine" by chewing tobacco, lifting heavy objects, watching lots of football (not saying that's always bad), and being obsessed with women's bodies and mistreating women, etc. But this is not the same as taking a spiritual role of leadership in the family, being a good shepherd to his children, etc. Our culture has plenty of the former kind of masculinity, but not enough of the latter. In fact, I think the former is the culture's way of hiding the fact that they obviously have lost all real masculinity. It's a facade.
Being a leader is NOT being abusive, not being nasty and not ordering ones wife and kids around nor is it nagging the daylights out of ones husband and disrespecting him in public and in private That never.ever.ends.well. On a more positive note, a friend of ours and a long time minister gave us some very useful advice about practical headship: In their family, they discuss what they want to do and his wife has input in decisions but he makes the final call.
 

au5t1n

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I agree with Montanablue, but I would add that masculinity can be defined different ways. Yes, the culture has an obsession with teaching boys and men to be "masculine" by chewing tobacco, lifting heavy objects, watching lots of football (not saying that's always bad), and being obsessed with women's bodies and mistreating women, etc. But this is not the same as taking a spiritual role of leadership in the family, being a good shepherd to his children, etc. Our culture has plenty of the former kind of masculinity, but not enough of the latter. In fact, I think the former is the culture's way of hiding the fact that they obviously have lost all real masculinity. It's a facade.
Being a leader is NOT being abusive, not being nasty and not ordering ones wife and kids around. A friend of ours and a long time minister gave us some very useful advice about practical headship: In their family, they discuss what they want to do and his wife has input in decisions but he makes the final call.
Yes, the world has seen enough of husbands and fathers like your first sentence.
 

calgal

Puritan Board Graduate
I agree with Montanablue, but I would add that masculinity can be defined different ways. Yes, the culture has an obsession with teaching boys and men to be "masculine" by chewing tobacco, lifting heavy objects, watching lots of football (not saying that's always bad), and being obsessed with women's bodies and mistreating women, etc. But this is not the same as taking a spiritual role of leadership in the family, being a good shepherd to his children, etc. Our culture has plenty of the former kind of masculinity, but not enough of the latter. In fact, I think the former is the culture's way of hiding the fact that they obviously have lost all real masculinity. It's a facade.
Being a leader is NOT being abusive, not being nasty and not ordering ones wife and kids around. A friend of ours and a long time minister gave us some very useful advice about practical headship: In their family, they discuss what they want to do and his wife has input in decisions but he makes the final call.
Yes, the world has seen enough of husbands and fathers like your first sentence.
Amen. And these relationships result in some really messed up families in the long run.
 

au5t1n

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I agree with Montanablue, but I would add that masculinity can be defined different ways. Yes, the culture has an obsession with teaching boys and men to be "masculine" by chewing tobacco, lifting heavy objects, watching lots of football (not saying that's always bad), and being obsessed with women's bodies and mistreating women, etc. But this is not the same as taking a spiritual role of leadership in the family, being a good shepherd to his children, etc. Our culture has plenty of the former kind of masculinity, but not enough of the latter. In fact, I think the former is the culture's way of hiding the fact that they obviously have lost all real masculinity. It's a facade.
Being a leader is NOT being abusive, not being nasty and not ordering ones wife and kids around. A friend of ours and a long time minister gave us some very useful advice about practical headship: In their family, they discuss what they want to do and his wife has input in decisions but he makes the final call.
Yes, the world has seen enough of husbands and fathers like your first sentence.
Amen. And these relationships result in some really messed up families in the long run.
I have some friends going through this kind of drama right now, so I know what you mean (apart from having experienced it myself in the past).
 

JennyG

Puritan Board Graduate
This morning the Telegraph (which also ran the original story) has followed up with a would-be humorous take on it by a columnist. It's much too lame to quote
 

PuritanZealot

Puritan Board Freshman
Afraid to say to all you non English folks out there, this is what the Church of England has become now, a total mockery of protestantism. Most of the CofE churches are full of charisamania and the most bizarre people, half of whom I doubt are truly saved. There's a general fear of orthodoxy these days, I professed my desire to start going to my local Strict Baptist Chapel, which has a two hundred year tradition of being Hardline Calvinist and my very good friends delivered a mix of terrifying responses, 'they make women wear head coverings' and 'they're way too strict on the order of service' and so on. Then we read this article in the mail recently and my wife was angered enough to write in. The thing that shocked us the most was the title, 'wives submit to husbands says vicar', no, 'wives submit to husbands says BIBLE'.
It's this kind of gungho who cares what the dusty old book says as long as i'm saved attitude that is destroying the True Religion. To then read of those blessed covenanters who threw prayer stools at the Bishop of Edinburgh and then tried to stone him to death when he read from the Book of Common Prayer in the pre-civil war times, it makes for sobering reading.
This is just another example of the heretical line the Church is treading, more worrying though is the general attitude of ecumenism in England at the moment, half the Anglicans are moving toward reconcillation with Rome, the other half is merging with the Methodists and the BUGB is merging with the Methodists as well. It's very, very worrying.
 

ericfromcowtown

Puritan Board Sophomore
When I forwarded the Sun article to my wife, she asked me what the context was. Is the vicar's sermon online somewhere? What about the leaflet that accompanied the sermon? Do we know if he later preached on the role of husbands to love their wives as Christ loves the Church? [much tougher job description, In my humble opinion] I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he gave the sermon in it's proper context and biblically, but this is one topic that could be handled poorly.

http://www.stnicholas-sevenoaks.org/resources/sermon-recordings/

The sermon should be on the page above. I don't have the time to listen to it at this moment.
 
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au5t1n

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
When I forwarded the Sun article to my wife, she asked me what the context was. Is the vicar's sermon online somewhere? What about the leaflet that accompanied the sermon? Do we know if he later preached on the role of husbands to love their wives as Christ loves the Church? [much tougher job description, In my humble opinion] I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he gave the sermon in it's proper context and biblically, but this is one topic that could be handled poorly.
The OP says leaflets were also handed out. I don't know why, but that raises a red flag for me.
 

ZackF

Puritan Board Graduate
When I forwarded the Sun article to my wife, she asked me what the context was. Is the vicar's sermon online somewhere? What about the leaflet that accompanied the sermon? Do we know if he later preached on the role of husbands to love their wives as Christ loves the Church? [much tougher job description, In my humble opinion] I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he gave the sermon in it's proper context and biblically, but this is one topic that could be handled poorly.
You and Mr. Snyder above make a good point about attacking things that may not exist.

On the matter of controversy, I find this strange to comment as I have thought of myself as one of the more liberal guys on the PB. I don't agree that every husband-headship or wife-submission sermon has to be a "but" sermon that talks about love of Christ toward the Church or something else. The puritans were known even notorious for expositing a verse or even clause at time when appropriate. Sometimes for emphasis and to break through a cultural cloud a preacher needs the impact of taking one concept at a time.
 

Bern

Puritan Board Freshman
On the church website is a statement by the rector himself, Angus Macleay. Reading that is helpful, as it showshow the papers exaggerate a story just to get people to buy the paper.

Shock! Horror! Church Believes The Bible! - St Nicholas Church - Sevenoaks

I recommend people listen to the sermon online if they wish to comment further on the subject, because having listened to it myself, I don't know how anyone could have disagreed with it! The preacher couldn't have been more careful and diplomatic with his wording than he was... I've heard far more "offensive" sermons than that.
 
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PuritanZealot

Puritan Board Freshman
As a Baptist in the UK though you must agree that the CofE has fallen into almost outright apostasy, I went to a friends daughters Dedication Ceremony at my local CofE church last Sunday and it just reminded my wife and I so painfully of why we left. They use a projector for the songs, there's a whole rock band with amps and everything playing the appalling songs, no hymns are sung (except an abominable rehashing of Amazing Grace with a sickening chorus thrown in the middle) and there is general stained glass, carved walls, statues, carvings of eagles and such everywhere. It's just depressing to stand there whilst all these so called Christians throw their hands in the air and grin like loons about the liberal comedy sermon being given, I really fear for their souls.
 

au5t1n

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
From the article Shock! Horror! Church Believes The Bible! - St Nicholas Church - Sevenoaks

On a different point another strand of headlines speak of the Rector telling women to be silent and of a leaflet written by him being distributed around the congregation in January. The reality is that I have written no leaflets, nothing has been distributed and no-one has ever told women to be silent.
Looks like the leaflets thing wasn't true.
 

Bern

Puritan Board Freshman
Craig, I agree, probably the vast majority of the CofE is apostate, but what percentage I couldn't say. However there are Anglican congregations across the country who do believe the bible and teach faithfully. Even within the congregations which are liberal or teaching false doctrine, there probably are genuine believers that don't really know any different because thats where they have always attended. Thankfully the Lord knows those who are His and no-one will snatch them out of His hand.
 

tommyb

Puritan Board Freshman
I expected rejection by many of the precept being taught, such is the generation we live. What is most discouraging is the complete ignorance, shock and disbelief that it was even in the Bible to begin with. Have they never read Ephesians or heard it preached? Obviously, the question answers itself. I would imagine it's that way with the rest of the Bible. Sad that you can be a tithing church member in England (or anywhere) and have absolutely no exposure to scripture.
 

Bern

Puritan Board Freshman
True Tom, but I think it says more about them than the church leaders. Don't they read the bible in their own time? In England, being a "Sunday Christian" is quite common, especially among CofE members... but perhaps equally among many of the modern arminian charismatic churches, where the teaching is mainly secular humanism packaged to look like Christianity. Hillsong is a good example of this.
 
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