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Discussion in 'Family Forum' started by puritangirl, Jun 24, 2005.
But choosing NOT to do it is sin, isn't it?
I also don't know how to quote, so for now, I will just quote it with quotation marks. BJ Clark writes:
"He WANTS us to with a JOYFUL heart, without complaining, without feeling pressured to do so"
I agree. A wife is to always to submit to her husband (unless he asked her to sin), and she is always to do it with a joyful heart. We are always to obey God (and our husbands) with a cheerful heart.
"without feeling as if we are some how sinning if we don't. God does not in anyway want us to feel forced to do anything we don't want to do which is why He gave us Free will to choose."
This I do not agree with at all. Jesus did not particularly want to die on the cross, as exemplified when He said,"Not MY will, but Yours be done." It was not His will to go through the pain and suffering of the cross, but He did it. Why? Because, more important than His own will is the will of the Father. Just because I may want to sleep in on a Sunday morning and forsake the gathering together of the people of the Lord doesn't mean that I can, because it's the Lord's Day and I have an obligation to keep the Sabbath holy. Just because I may want to give into my flesh and be impure before marriage doesn't mean I can, because otherwise I would be breaking the law of God and committing adultury. Just because I may want to dishonor my parents because I don't understand why they ask me to do the things they do doesn't mean I can, because I have been commanded to honor and obey my parents. Just because I may not understand or agree with my husband when he asks something of me does not mean I don't have to do it, because I am commanded by God to submit to my husband. No, becoming a wife doesn't mean you leave your "Christian status" at the door. But your identity in Christ and as a Christian will directly affect the kind of wife you are. You will either be the kind of wife who doesn't care what the Bible has to say but instead views her relationship with her husband as a "team" and a "partnership" (the world's view), or you will listen to the Word of God and humbly accept your place as a wife. Miss SolaFide makes a great point - God commands us not to be jealous, and yet He Himself claims that He is a jealous God. Do we not obey Him and dismiss His words (after all, it isn't fair - He's asked us to do something He Himself doesn't do...). No, of course not. You and I both agree that we strive to not be jealous, regardless of what God does. We understand that His place and our place are two very different things. In the same way, if your boss gives you a job to do, as an employee you must do it. It's not because you're an idiot or because you can't make your own decisions, but simply because your "place" is employee and his "place" is your employer. It is no different with marriage. There are different "places" and we are commanded by God to be submissive wives, and to, as you have pointed out, submit cheerfully.
I might also add that submission is not submission when you already agree with your husband. Submission is subjecting your will to his when your wills differ.
Bobbie, I have to ask....are you or are you not a Calvinist? Your postings are showing free-will arminian views.
Yes, I was.
In this case scripture is speaking to the external. It doesn't state that one should obey only if they agree. You can obey with a joyful heart to the Lord whether you are in agreement on the issue or not. As Christine mentioned...using Christ as an example.
No on said it was. You are misinterpreting the mindset. We are focusing on the wives' response. If you would like, start a thread for the men's side of things.
Yes, if it isn't going against God's commands.
in my opinion, the wife is MUCH happier if she does follow Biblical commands whether he does or not
If one does the "wrong" thing for the "right" reason it is still sin, and
if one does the "right" thing for the "wrong" reason (SELF will vs. Scripture) it too is sin
Also, Eph 5:23 states " For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church"
so if we are supposed to submit to God with a supple and joyful heart, why should we think that our husbands should be different? Thier place (positionally) in our lives is ordained by God.
Wow! Thanks for the insult! Believe me, my brain is fully functioning. What you think is being a doormat isactually called being a servant. There is a difference. As wives we are "helpmeets" (that is the position we have been given by God, therefore a part of WHO we are in Christ). We are not to seek our own. However, this does not mean we are mindless idiots either. In fact, I believe it takes a great deal of wisdom to be a proper helpmeet.
Well, then I guess I could only tell you what we all have to do in that situation. Pray that the Lord changes your heart and attitude. We all deal with it, we aren't perfect, but it doesn't excuse us from at the very least obeying externally while we work on the internal. Scripture speaks much about obligations. This prevents us from making excuses for wrong actions based on emotions.
Here is where you are leaning away from reformed teachings. Proverbs 16:9 "a man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps"
There is also a verse that states that no man seeketh after the Lord. (having trouble with my SwordSearcher right now) and that it is the Lord that draweth the heart.
God isn't sitting there just waiting for us to WANT Him. He actually CREATES that desire.
As Christine stated...Christ said that he would rather the cup be taken from him...but he submitted to the Will of the Father. And it sounds like the love you are talking about is the emotional love...not the love found in Scripture. Emotions ebb and flow. They change. I don't always "feel" like "loving" my husband or others. However, I "Love" them as in that I do that which is commanded of my by God...I support, take care of, want and do what is best for, etc. This is the love that is commanded...this is the love that Christ showed when he died on the cross.
[Edited on 9-27-2005 by LadyFlynt]
You women crack me up...
Very well said Colleen.
Love is a commitment, backed by actions, not necessarily feelings
Phrased much better than mine...thanks!
Colleen, I am a little confused by the comment you made on me starting a thread on the men's side of things. You asked me, "At what point are you going to rebel. And are you willing to risk your marriage for it? Don't say that this is petty stuff and not marriage breaking...because the attitudes that go with it generally lead to such." Which I responded, "Marriages are not solely dependant on the wife. She is not the maker or breaker of a marriage. This kind of mindset relegates the failure or success of a marriage fully on the wife. I am not speaking of divorce here." My point was that marriage is made up of 2 people. No need to go start another thread - it was relevant to your comment.
The rabbit trails and tone within some comments on this thread are enough for me to quietly step out. My original questions and comments on the issue have still not been addressed. I am thankful that I am accepted in Christ, not by what I do or don't do, but by His blood alone. I am grateful my husband is the head and leader of our home, and I strive to submit to him with a cheerful heart. I fail, he fails. Praise God for His mercies. :bigsmile:
That was my point. In marriages, there are times that when the wife fails the men will fail as well as vise versa. We are dealing with wives. A woman doesn't alone make or break a marriage. But she does have a big impact on it. Many women have saved their marriages by focusing on their part alone. I would believe the same would apply in minor situations also. It does not mean that it is totally dependent upon her...but that her part is and her part affects his part.
Sorry, I must have missed something.. was something funny said here?
Romans 3:23..for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...
I think we all have. What is trying to be addressed here is the state of the wife's heart, Scriptural responsibililty, and attitudes and actions that result from it...
Don't be intimidated by the board. You'll find we all are quite opinionated here! LOL. Please continue to post in this thread if you have something else to add.
I've grown a lot since coming to the PB, and made some good friends. I see you're already at 4 posts. Great start! Welcome to the board
I also apologize. We do get quite intense in debates...er, discussions.
[Edited on 9-27-2005 by LadyFlynt]
I can imagine myself asking my wife to do something I would never do because I am a sinner. I never said it would be right or loving to do so. It would probably not be loving or right (but not necessarily, but that doesn't really matter), but the whole point of me saying that...is to ask the question 'What would you do?' or for me, "What would my wife do if I asked her to do something that I wouldn't do (hopefully I wouldn't do that, but what if I actually did do that)...what would she then do?" I would hope that she would obey me and moreso Christ (in not sinning, but also in obeying her husband because Christ has made him (husband) to be her head). That is the point: what would you do? obey or not obey...submit or not submit?
I guess that would depend, on whether you feel a person continues to have free will (or freedom in Christ) on what choices they make within their Christian walk or not. Which is why we are more Free in Christ than we are without Him.
I am no longer under the LAW, I am under Grace. I make the choice to live within the Law or not, but I am not controlled by the law.
I certainly have a choice in deciding to get up and go to Church on Sunday Morning or not. I know that if I don't go, *I* miss out on a Blessing in my life. However, I still have a choice in the matter and I'm not going to feel guilty if I choose not to go one Sunday. Why? Because I know it is my choice to spend that time with God or Not.
I am even free to sin if I so choose, does it mean there will not be consequences if I make that choice? No, it doesn't, but I still have the freedom of choice or 'free will' to do so.
Jesus actually had a CHOICE on whether or not He died on the Cross of not. Notice as was mentioned above "not MY WILL, but thine" That clearly shows me HE had a CHOICE on whether to the Cross or not, and it shows me the freedoms I also have in Him.
My salvation is not dependant upon anything *I* do or don't do, however the depth of relationship I have with God is. God loves me whether I am living in sin or not, He loves me whether I am in Church on Sunday morning or not, His love for me is UNCONDITIONAL--it is not based on any set conditions being met on my part, it is all about HIM.
However, in order to BE in a relationship with Christ, I must meet certain conditions, admit I am a sinner, confess that sin, repent of that sin and seek God's forgiveness. But those are the conditions of relationship not God's love nor do they have anything to do with the depth of relationship I have with Christ. It is the choices I make on a day to day basis within my relationship with Christ that make the relationship stronger or not.
in other words, as a Christian, I have the freedom to choose what kind of relationship I want with God and how strong that relationship is, I personally choose to live within God's will and not my own, but I also acknowledge it is MY choice to do that and God is in no way forcing me to serve Him, love Him, or do anything for Him that I do not wish to do.
Just as with Christ going to the Cross, He made a Choice to submit His will to God's will, God didn't force Him to do that. Remember, though He was fully God, He was also Fully Man. And as Christians, we have just as much of the Holy Spirit within us as Christ did and yet, we can still make our own choices. Good or Bad.
As always...counting on you Wayne. Thanks for being a REALIST.
Actually, I can see times where a spouse would ask the other to do things that they themselves would not do, merely due to the roles each is in.
There have been some interesting posts or links about free will here:
Bobbi, it sounds as though you are creating God to be someone who waits on us and is reactionary instead of someone who has already predetermined history.
Sorry to butt in, but I don't think Christian Liberty has anything to do with this. If you make a distinction between law and grace, doesn't necessarily matter here.
It is in Ephesians/Colossians/1 Peter where we see God command "Wives submit...". Do we have choices as Christians? Yes. Are they free? It doesn't really matter in this context. Even if we do have free will as you are defining it (I am not arguing), women are still commanded BY GOD to submit to their husbands (Husbands are commanded to love their wives). There is no CHRISTIAN LIBERTY in commandments. YOU DO IT, bottom line. We are commanded not to murder. We have the freedom to murder or not murder (ok, thats fine), but the point is we are still commanded to not murder. Therefore if one does murder, it is a sin. What is sin? You could define it as doing something not according to God's will. Well God lays down His will throughout Scripture, some of it is through commandments. Would you say that the 10 commandments are not binding today?
So, because of Christian Liberty...(in your definition of it, you can do whatever you want) so...where sin increased, grace abouned all th emore, that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be? - Romans 5:20-6:2a
Christian Liberty doesn't allow us (or give us free will) to do whatever we want to do (sin or not sin). It gives us liberty FROM SIN! "For freedom Christ has set us free (from sin); stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery (which is sin)." Italics added for clarification of context.
[Edited on 9-27-2005 by Romans922]
**Puritanhead sits idle in amusement with a smirk on his face**
Amazing Free Will;
how sweet the sound?
that saved a wretched Arminian like me
Your original post:
Yes, she must not when it would be a sin against God to do so.
I've already answered this...there is no harm in her sipping a glass of wine at his request...whether he be a drunk or not. As she is not sinning and has no convictions against it, I do not see how she is encouraging his sin. Particularly when she has probably confronted him on his sin and he is the one insisting already aware of her feelings on the issue. To assist in his drunkeness would be for her to be drinking when he is trying not to or to take it up herself.
Okay, waiting to hear. However, all things would be all things that are not contrary to God's commands.
No one stated it was controller/controllee. It is where one is in authority and the other is not.
The scripture states to obey in all things. It does not state to obey only when our husbands hearts are right.
This has been addressed already. 1) you have the right of appeal 2) it reflects more upon your husband than upon you...however, God never said that he wouldn't put us in embarrasing situations and there are ways of handling them graciously. (BJClark comes to mind )
Mayhaps you should read testamonies of those that are or have fought for their marriages in this way.
Women of Faith
Marriage Restoration sites
"Daughters of Sarah" book
"Grace Enough" book
Please do not take what I said as insulting, I did not mean it that way,
And you actually do not know what I consider being a servant or a doormat, I've been both. As a previous doormat, I certainly didn't feel I had a choice in anything, if my Now ex-husband said 'Don't go to church', I didn't go to church under the belief I was being 'submissive' to what he wanted. When he wanted to me to stop associating with my Christian lady friends, I stopped, again under the belief *I* was being submissive, when the reality was I actually DID have a choice in whether I went to church and who to fellowship with as God led me, why because God isn't going to tell me NOT to fellowship with other believers, but even in his asking me NOT to do those things he wasn't technically asking me to sin or even do something sinful, but he certainly wasn't leading me TO God by asking me not to go to church, and not fellowshipping with other female believers. I was in essence putting my husband's will before what I knew God's will was for my life, and basically placing Him before God in my life. So again, please do not take what I said as an insult.
Actually, my attitude has been changed greatly by God over the past few years, as has my relationship with Him grown by leaps and bounds, by recognizing the choices and freedoms I actually have, in realizing that God's will comes even before my husband's will, and I follow God first.
I believe I said God gives us that desire.
Actually, no I'm not refering to emotional love, I'm refering to unconditional love, the love you have for someone that gives others the freedom to make choices, good or bad, and yet you love them anyway even if you don't agree with their decisions.
It's the same love that has allowed me to truly forgive a man who molested me my entire childhood, and desire to have a relationship with him today. As I realized God allowed Him to CHOOSE to sin or not, just as God allows me to make the same choice, to sin or not. It is the same love that has allowed me to see this man as God does, a sinner in need of a Savior, JUST like ME. It's the same love that has allowed me to see my own sin as JUST as BAD as this man's sin, and worthy of my own death and eternal seperation from God. Even though our choice of sin has been different, it was still sin, and still worthy of the same death and eternal damnation. (and even more pointedly, allows me to truly see myself the same as I see Him, equally a Sinner in need of a Savior)
I have learned His sin was not greater than mine, and my sin is not less than his, just different sins, but again, worthy of the same hell fire and damnation and eternal seperation from God. And again, just as I had a choice to sin or not, so did he.
So, no, it is not an emotional love I am speaking of, but a love God has brought me through a great deal of pain to understand and appreciate.
And when others say women don't have a choice, but to submit or even to serve God, based on what God has taught me, I have to disagree, we always have a choice to choose to follow and submit to God and or our husbands or Not.
[Edited on 9-28-2005 by BJClark]
[Edited on 9-28-2005 by BJClark]
"The scripture states to obey in all things. It does not state to obey only when our husbands hearts are right."
Absolutely! !!!!!! !
The only exception I could possibly think of would be where his request clearly violated God's moral law as well as government's law: as in a command "here, go murder someone" or "go rob that bank".
In this case I believe God's heirarchy of authority comes into effect. And if I had to guess since 99.99% of cases do not fall into the exception catagory, especially for the people on this board, I'd say the point is moot.
hmmm...Can you telll I'm in a rambling mood? Can I blame it on my chocolate shake?
I didn't take you too strongly on the "brain check" statement...I threw is back to show how needless and out there it was. Not really offended.
Please see Romans' post on Christian Liberty.
As far as being a doormat vs servant...there are women on here who DO understand in similar manners that you do. However, do not let what was FORCED on you affect how you view scriptural commands. We are speaking of requests here. Neither are we saying that you have to obey under ALL conditions. We stated the condition...would it be sinning against God to obey your husband in his request?
I'm still a bit concerned though. You stated that Christ could have chosen to disobey the Father. How so, considering that the Son and the Father are in constant agreement? It is not possible for the trinity to disagree when they are one. How is it that you would view that Christ's "decision" was what all was dependant upon? Did not God predetermine all things as they would happen from before the beginning?
And even asking that I not go to church or ending Christian female friendships was not asking me to sin against God, yet the reasons he asked was because of his own sin. And I submitted (based on the teaching that a wife must submit in EVERY THING, as was taught in the church I had previously attended, the preacher even told me I was sinning if I went to Church, because I would be going against my husband and yes, He even confronted him and he chose to ignore them) and by my not following God first, I was not being fed, I was in essence starving Spiritually.
Someone mentioned is it a sin for a wife not to drink with her husband if he asks her to, well, is he going to church? Will your drinking with him lead him to Christ? I would say NO; That was one of the many issues in my previous marriage, he wanted me to drink along side him, and I again submitted to him in this area, it led me back into a sin from which God delivered me years ago. But then again, to not submit to my husband in EVERY THING was also a sin. I finally said NO to drinking with him and God blessed that decision, and my struggle to quit was not long.
I personally believe that by submitting in that area you are in fact enabling his sin, you are in essence telling him that you agree with that choice, when in fact you don't.
Because Christ was fully man, He could have chosen to disobey, He would not have had to prove to us with His Temptations in the Garden that it is possible to overcome sin with the Help of the Holy Spirit, it was because He was also fully God and filled with the Holy Spirit, that He didn't give in to those temptations. And because He knew what was required of Him from the beginning of time to reconcile us with Himself, He submitted to the will of God the Father.
But even beyond that, God could have very easily chosen from the beginning of time to destroy mankind and not send a Savior at all.
He could have very easily chosen to send us all to hell for eternity, but in In His grace and mercy He Chose to reconcile us with Himself by coming and paying our sin debt for us. But He didn't HAVE to do that. Did He?
I don't believe that He had to.