Submission

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Originally posted by wsw201
However, public and malicious acts don't neccesarily portray the woman as foolish...guess who she is a reflection of? Her husband, what she does reflects him. If he gives her a foolish command (though not sinful), then the consequences directly reflect on him more than her.
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I just had a vision of Colleen roosting in a tree sqawking like a chicken. And while she was sqawking she would say "but I'm just relecting my husband !" and her husband comes out to check on her in a big chicken suit! ;)

Sorry! I couldn't help myself!
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:D I do have a sense of humour (I loved the hen in a tree pic posted!)

I can also think of an old testament example...hello, doesn't anyone remember what happened to Vashti?
 
quite an interesting thread...

reading all this stuff about female submission actually makes me realize what a big duty and responsibility men and husbands have. I guess lots of times we guys ( or at least me ) don't realize that getting tough on female submission also means getting tough on male responsibility.

Anyway, what do you guys think about the issue of submission in an situation where the husband obviously wants, and has requested, his wife to do something, but he stops short of giving a 'command' to do so. He may even verbally say that he doesn't mind if she refuses. Is there any issue of submission here? Or what about a situation where the husband wants something but after a long 'discussion' the wife is able to persuade him to change his mind, albeit reluctantly.

I guess these situations could also apply especially as between children and parents.

So what is our response here? Is it a woman's duty to 'read between the lines' and do what her husband wants? Or do we say if he's not man enough to say it out loud he shouldn't get it?

Thoughts?
 
In the case of children...there is room for appeal with the understanding that parents still make the ulitmate decision. This should be done respectfully though.

Speaking as a wife...we also have room for either appeal or counsel. A man should listen to his wife's counsel...she may be able to at least give another side of the picture...and together they can come to a decision. However, the main responsibility for making the decision should rest on the husband's shoulders. And a wife would be wrong if she pressured wrongfully (in a wrongful manner) her husband to decide a certain way.
 
Originally posted by LadyFlynt
In the case of children...there is room for appeal with the understanding that parents still make the ulitmate decision. This should be done respectfully though.

Speaking as a wife...we also have room for either appeal or counsel. A man should listen to his wife's counsel...she may be able to at least give another side of the picture...and together they can come to a decision. However, the main responsibility for making the decision should rest on the husband's shoulders. And a wife would be wrong if she pressured wrongfully (in a wrongful manner) her husband to decide a certain way.
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thanks..i agree with what you've said.

I am wonder though about a situation in which a discussion has taken place and the husband has reluctantly decided to follow his wife's point of view, not because he agrees with her views but just to avoid further conflict.

Since the original example was about dancing, say here the couple are at a formal dinner or what not. The husband want to dance, the wife doesn't want to. After some discussion the husband does that sterotypical TV thing where he throws his hands in the air and goes 'ahh..there's not point if you heart's not in it.'

Assuming the wife was completely biblical in the way she approached the discussion, is there any issue here? Or can she just take it that the authority has changed its mind?
 
Truthfully, it sounds as though there is more than meets the eye. Sounds like she corrects or redirects the decisions on a regular basis. This is the kind of woman I am talking about...they can approach it in a "totally biblical" manner, but always with the intent of undermining what their husband desires...happens often enough or on a very regular basis then "Adam" steps back automatically rather than push the issue. Some of these men are this way from the start due to, say, their mothers. These men really need a wife that will IMMEDIATELY jump at the chance to do what hubby wants when he actually makes a DECISION that he wants to do something. Therefore, given how hubby reacts...yes, she should have just smiled and danced with him. Dancing is not WHOLLY anti-biblical...and especially when it is with one's husband.
 
I guess I don't see this as completely a submission issue, her husband asked her to dance and sing down the street, she can say No. Why? Because it was a request. He was asking her do something. We always have a right to say No, and it not be about a submission issue.

But the real issue is, why is he asking her to sing and dance down the street?

Is it to embarass her? Is it to make her look foolish? Is he willing to sing and dance down the street with her? Or is he wanting her to do this alone?

If he is willing to do the same (by leading), then sure why not sing and dance down the street?

but, if he is asking her to do this and HE is not willing to do the same, then it is more a matter of lording his 'authority' over her.

Christ would never ask us to do anything HE Himself was not willing to do, so if a husband is willing to go out and sing and dance down the street, then by all means the wife should be willing to do the same. However, if the husband being the leader, is not willing to do the same then He should not be asking his wife to do those things either.
 
satz,

I can't speak for everyone, but personally, I wish for my husband to be direct in his communication with me, as God did not gift me with the ability to be a mind reader.

A question though, are you asking your wife to do something that you are not willing to do yourself?

Anyone should be willing to ask for what they want and need from others in a direct way. It's proper communication skills. However, if they refuse, you should ask why? If it's something they have a problem with emotionally or otherwise, then you need to find out why, and that is done through open and honest communication. It could be something they are uncomfortable with, and don't necessarily need to be, but just have a personal issue with it, but either way a husband and wife should ALWAYS respect the others No, but at the same time learn to understand WHY they are saying NO.

Have you ever read the book "Boundaries in Marriage"?
 
BJ, Again, too many times one side wants to set up boundaries and yet to have none placed on themselves. This is why I put in the appeal. Most couples won't get to the point of her "singing down the street" (which is a ridiculous example, In my humble opinion). They will generally end up talking. No one here ever stated that a woman couldn't ask her husband "what's the deal". Unfortunately there are times when a wife finds certain commands silly and then consequences ensue when she disobeys (ie, the pillar of salt).
 
I am surprised that no one has suggested that loud singing in the streets could get you a disorderly conduct charge. :judge:
 
LadyFlynt,

I understand that, as even God has boundaries and we don't always like those.

I personally would dance and sing down the street, only because I am that way and don't get embarassed by such things. I wouldn't even need to ask my husband if he would join me, as I know He would be embarassed. (so I know he wouldn't ask me to do such a silly thing) because he knows me well enough to know I WOULD do it, just for fun. :lol:

My kids don't even ask me to do things like that anymore as they are more embarassed by my doing them than I am. They know I don't care what the neighbors think.

They get embarassed at church when I'm singing, not that I sing off key, It just comes out loud, because I'm singing to God and not those around me and people turn around to look, they start the "mom shhhh, people are staring"
 
I think the thrust of this thread was NOT to examine the sinfullness of the husband's request to sing and dance down the street. It is obvious that in this example, it is probably an example of the husband lording his authority over her, and therefore he would be in sin.

That being said, the sinfullness of the husband's request does NOT excuse the wife from submitting to her husband's request. She is to fulfill HER duty (as long as the action is not sinful in and of itself) DESPITE the sinfullness of her husband.

If the request is lawful (i.e. not sinful) the woman was not given the authority to pick and choose when and when not she is to submit to her husband.

Submission should look like Christ and how he submitted himself to the father:

Luke 22:42
"œFather, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done."
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Originally posted by LadyFlynt
You sound as nutty as me! :D
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My kids get embarassed when we go to Wal-mart or Target and they have the CD's that you can listen to the various music, I sing along with those, my husband and I have been known to stand there and dance in the aisle,
the kids go run and hide. :lol:

it was funny last time we did that, another couple our age joined us (40+), their kids ran and hid too, the other couple just laughed and said "hey now we know how we can embarass the kids." :D
 
Originally posted by BJClark
satz,

I can't speak for everyone, but personally, I wish for my husband to be direct in his communication with me, as God did not gift me with the ability to be a mind reader.

A question though, are you asking your wife to do something that you are not willing to do yourself?
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Your husband might just say the same thing about you. It is part of the falleness of mankind that all people do NOT communicate well. Encourage your husband in a gentle way to do so, and remind yourself that you need to communicate too.

There might be points in life with your husband that he might ask/tell you to do something that he isn't willing to do himself. What will you do, especially if what he is asking wouldn't be sinful if you did do it? I think it is in proper obedience to do what he says. Just as Christ obeyed His Father, and as the Church should obey/submit to Christ, in everything.
 
Romans922,

I speak very directly with my husband, I don't like hints or backdoor messages, nor do I like avoiding conflict in my marriage, I don't like secrets and I know the only way my husband or anyone can know my thoughts (other than God Himself) is to speak them. I may not speak them right away, but journal them first, so that I am not lashing out in the heat of the moment, where things can not be taken back and someone gets hurt, but I do share them eventually.

My husband has learned that if I have something on my heart that is bothering me I will talk to him about it, even if it means waking him up at 3 in the morning to do so. There are very few times I have done that, but I have when things were really weighing heavy on my heart; and you know, he has done the same with me, again not very often but he has.

Thus far, there has yet to be a time when my husband has asked me to do something he is *unwilling* to do himself. He may not be able due to circumstances and he'll ask me to do things, but I know if he had time in his schedule, he would. But then we are a team, and each team member has their own responsibilities and sometimes we have to help the other person out.

But I'm curious, what things would you ask your wife to do, that you are *unwilling* to do yourself? Not that you can't do them, but just will not do under any circumstances?
 
I am not in that situation to know at this time, but I could image there would be a few times in life with a spouse where a husband would ask something of his wife.

What will you do, if your husband tells you to do something and wouldn't do himself (that something being not sinful)?
 
Those who say it doesn't matter if the hubby is in sin or not, but that what matters is that the wife submits if it isn't sin for her ~

The idea that a woman is not in sin by doing something foolish at the demand of her husband (assuming his intent is to abuse his leadership, showing clear disregard and unconcern for his wife's HEART) is hard for me to grasp. I wonder....is she encouraging HIS sin by doing so? in my opinion, this isn't an across the board issue. There will be times she can submit to something even knowing her dh has a wrong motive etc. but there are times when she must not.

Let's take another example. Husband is a drunk. TELLS wife to drink with him, not get "drunk"" but have some wine while he get's blasted. So according to this mindset, she is to submit (assuming here that she has no "conviction" against general alcohol consumption) because partaking alchohol is not a sin (drunkeness is), therefore for her, she must submit to his request.

:um:

The argument that a wife submits in "everything" regardless of the man's sin in requiring her to is an interesting argument being that the word used to support this thought does not exclude those things that are sinful....we obviously (and rightly) imply it based upon the rest of scripture...which is my point - the word itself does not literally MEAN "everything"... another example of why we do not isolate scripture from context or build a theology around an obscure verse etc. So we already KNOW and agree that it can't mean "everything". When I have time, I plan to study this entire passage out more deeply, but this is my initial thought on it.

The marriage relationship is compared to Christ and the Church. That's where we look to come to a proper view of headshiip and submission. It is not controller/controllee. Relationship is inherrent.

Where is the biblical support for the idea that "a wife is to submit if it is not sin, otherwise, her refusal to submit to any request not inherently 'sinful' IS sin, regardless of the husbands sin in requiring it"? Sin is not OUTSIDE of our hearts. If my dh told me to dance and sing in the street, it would hurt me that he would expect me to, as I would feel he does not care or love me very much to make me do such a thing, cause me extreme embarrassement and shame, and seriously mar my testimony for Christ to those who see it. But I guess, because those are heart issues or problems/sins in me (because I should do it cheerfully regardless), I must "get over it", since the act itself is devoid of sin (ie. dancing and singing in the street is not sin) and do it anyway, or I would be a rebellious and disobedient wife.

I don't get it (and for those who may be wondering, neither does my dh).

[Edited on 9-27-2005 by 5solasmom]
 
It's sad how many times I've seen a marriage ruined over the petty excuses of:

"my husband doesn't love me like the church"
"my husband embarrassed me"
"my husband doesn't provide the support he should"
"my husband is being foolish and I shouldn't have to go along with it"

Honestly! There were times that I fought what I supposed was my husband's foolishness, only to find out he had purpose and I was the foolish one for fighting it. Marriage isn't even about being "in love"...so yes, get over it...love your husband anyway and don't wear his breaches. Most of the time the husband changes based on the way a wife responds. Intelligent men have been made to appear as dimwits due to a wife's attitude and blackmail. Timid men have been made leaders by their wife's support.

My husband hears it everyday on the job...he comes home and wonders why I'm still here when women are leaving their husbands everyday. You may wonder what this has to do with obediance....EVERYTHING...because it all has to do with the heart. At what point are you going to rebel. And are you willing to risk your marriage for it? Don't say that this is petty stuff and not marriage breaking...because the attitudes that go with it generally lead to such.

Also, there is a segment of this discussion that is being ignored. No one implied that when a husband speaks that the wife "snaps to". It has been stated several times, that the "request" is open to discussion...and generally does.

Also, we are to obey our husbands, they their bosses, etc as long as it isn't against God's Word. It's sad...but many women will apply this teaching to their job (heavens, they wouldn't want to lose that!) but not to their marriage (as of course it's "his" fault).

Now if you are going towards an abusive situation, then there is something to be said for separation (not divorce).
 
Originally posted by 5solasmom
Those who say it doesn't matter if the hubby is in sin or not, but that what matters is that the wife submits if it isn't sin for her ~

The idea that a woman is not in sin by doing something foolish at the demand of her husband (assuming his intent is to abuse his leadership, showing clear disregard and unconcern for his wife's HEART) is hard for me to grasp. I wonder....is she encouraging HIS sin by doing so? in my opinion, this isn't an across the board issue. There will be times she can submit to something even knowing her dh has a wrong motive etc. but there are times when she must not.

Let's take another example. Husband is a drunk. TELLS wife to drink with him, not get "drunk"" but have some wine while he get's blasted. So according to this mindset, she is to submit (assuming here that she has no "conviction" against general alcohol consumption) because partaking alchohol is not a sin (drunkeness is), therefore for her, she must submit to his request.

:um:

The argument that a wife submits in "everything" regardless of the man's sin in requiring her to is an interesting argument being that the word used to support this thought does not exclude those things that are sinful....we obviously (and rightly) imply it based upon the rest of scripture...which is my point - the word itself does not literally MEAN "everything"... another example of why we do not isolate scripture from context or build a theology around an obscure verse etc. So we already KNOW and agree that it can't mean "everything". When I have time, I plan to study this entire passage out more deeply, but this is my initial thought on it.

The marriage relationship is compared to Christ and the Church. That's where we look to come to a proper view of headshiip and submission. It is not controller/controllee. Relationship is inherrent.

Where is the biblical support for the idea that "a wife is to submit if it is not sin, otherwise, her refusal to submit to any request not inherently 'sinful' IS sin, regardless of the husbands sin in requiring it"? Sin is not OUTSIDE of our hearts. If my dh told me to dance and sing in the street, it would hurt me that he would expect me to, as I would feel he does not care or love me very much to make me do such a thing, cause me extreme embarrassement and shame, and seriously mar my testimony for Christ to those who see it. But I guess, because those are heart issues or problems/sins in me (because I should do it cheerfully regardless), I must "get over it", since the act itself is devoid of sin (ie. dancing and singing in the street is not sin) and do it anyway, or I would be a rebellious and disobedient wife.

I don't get it (and for those who may be wondering, neither does my dh).

[Edited on 9-27-2005 by 5solasmom]
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.:ditto:

No one here is excusing the man's sin. However, this topic isn't necessarily focused on the husband. It is focused on the woman's submission.

It isn't an if/then statement. If your husband loves you, then you submit to him. It is "husband love your wife....wife submit to your husband in all things". If the husband doesn't love his wife, he is in sin. If the wife doesn't submit in all things (except if it would be sin) she is in sin.

As to submitting in all things (or everything). Wives are to submit to their husbands, as the Church has been commanded to submit to Christ. How is the Church supposed to submit to Christ? In all things that He commands.

If the wife submits to her husband in all things, it will soften his heart.

[Edited on 9-27-2005 by Romans922]
 
Precisely...as stated before...when dealing with the woman, deal with what she is or isn't doing and what she should or shouldn't be doing. I let hubby deal with the men about their part of the issues. (We have actually dealt with this before in counseling a few other couples)

And no, we are not to use their sin as an excuse for our actions.

[Edited on 9-27-2005 by LadyFlynt]
 
Romans922,

I am not in that situation to know at this time, but I could image there would be a few times in life with a spouse where a husband would ask something of his wife.
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Actually, my husband wouldn't ask me or anyone to do something he's not willing to do himself, his idea of a leadership is someone who leads BY example, not dictatorship. And he looks at it that if he isn't willing to do it, then he isn't going to ask someone else to.

Not even Christ asks us to do things He wasn't willing to do Himself, (and not that my husband is Christ, he is Christ-like in this way) I can't imagine my husband asking me to do something he isn't willing to do himself.

So I'm curious what can you imagine a husband could ask his wife to do that he, himself wouldn't be willing to do?

I realize your not in that situation, but if you can imagine it can happen, you must have some ideas of what those things would be. So what are they? What things can you imagine asking a wife to do that you, yourself would be unwilling to do?


[Edited on 9-27-2005 by BJClark]

[Edited on 9-27-2005 by BJClark]
 
Yes LadyFlynt, I agree with you. The reason I posted this "ridiculous" example in the first place was because I wanted to figure out - not whether or not the husband was in sin for asking his wife to do something so stupid - but whether or not the wife has the authority to decide whether he has asked her to do something "stupid" and whether she has the choice not to do it, when it is not specifically sin. My future husband will never ask me to dance down the street and make a fool of myself EVER. But he has asked me to take the "Christ" out of Christmas :)worms:). Do I dismiss this as ridiculous? No - I do not have that authority, even if it strikes me as so in the first place. Now, I am the point where I understand where he is coming from, but my point is that there are times when husbands ask their wives to do something that, to the wife, may seem as ridiculous as dancing down the street making a fool out of herself. My purpose in this post was to confirm what I suspected - that it is still her duty to submit to him, respect him and treat him like the head God has made him, even when she doesn't understand why he made such a request (and of course, discussion may and must proceed a request that she doesn't understand).

I know that it is not unusual for a wife to think that she has some "moral" reason not to submit to her husband, even though he has not outrightly asked her to sin. A certain wife I know will not even visit a church on Sunday nights that her husband really wants to visit, because she thinks it is "betraying" the church in which they are members, though that church has no night service. Because she will make life for him difficult if he insists on visiting a church in which he could truly grow, he has decided (against his wishes) not to go. His wife is inhibiting his growth and spiritual leadership, and the issue is that she thinks she has morally sound reasons for doing so. However, this is not a wife's call to make - he has not asked her sin, and so she does not have the "position" to veto his leadership. There are so many other examples of wives assuming a way that they deem more "spiritual" than that of their husbands. The wife Colleen mentioned earlier who made her husband and his friends breakfast at the break of a dawn is a perfect example of a wife that did not try to loophole her God-given place as a wife in order to have her own way. And look what came of it!

It comes down to this: we do not submit to our husbands because they are the smartest, most respectable and Christ-like men we know - we submit to them because they are in the position that demands that, whether or not we think they deserve it. It is not our choice to make - God put them in that position, not us. When we agreed to be their wife, we agreed to be their help-meet, and most importantly we agreed to model Christ and the church to the world. We trust Christ when He asks us to do things we do not understand or want to do. It was not Christ's will to bear the sins of the elect, and yet He did it in obedience. The "joy set before Him" was pleasing His Father. Wives can rest in the fact that submission to their husbands pleases their Father who is in Heaven. We submit to our Heavenly Bridegroom by submitting to our earthly one. For wives who have made Christ their ambition (all else is "loss"), their will is quickly lost in His.

Of course this does not stand in cases of abuse. But it goes against the grain of modern culture, and our marriages today painfully reflect the foolishness of our disobedience.
 
Colleen, I am not sure you are speaking directly to me, but there are a few things I will try to address in the time I have to do so.

I don't know how to quote yet, so quotes are in italics.

Most of the time the husband changes based on the way a wife responds.

Which is not the issue I am addressing at all. I am dealing with the issue of whether or not it is ALWAYS disobedience if a wife doesn't do what her husband tellls her to, i.e. is the demand/command totally irrelevant? I agree wholeheartedly that we are to obey the Word of God and that we will see much fruit as a result, but this is not an "if you do this, it will cause your dh to do this" issue. FTR, I am not advocating never obeying a husband who asks a wife to do something she may think unwise or even foolish (which I said in my original post).

You may wonder what this has to do with obediance....EVERYTHING...because it all has to do with the heart.

EXACTLY. Obedience IS true obedience when our hearts obey. If we relegate "obedience" to mean doing something someone tells you to regardless of their or our sinful attitude in it, we are defining obedience as merely EXTERNAL ACTION.

At what point are you going to rebel. And are you willing to risk your marriage for it? Don't say that this is petty stuff and not marriage breaking...because the attitudes that go with it generally lead to such.

Marriages are not solely dependant on the wife. She is not the maker or breaker of a marriage. This kind of mindset relegates the failure or success of a marriage fully on the wife. I am not speaking of divorce here.

Also, there is a segment of this discussion that is being ignored. No one implied that when a husband speaks that the wife "snaps to". It has been stated several times, that the "request" is open to discussion...and generally does.

The initial discussion centered on her obeying regardless. I did not say anything about someone saying "snap to it". I was speaking to the posts which said she should obey in everything.



[Edited on 9-27-2005 by 5solasmom]
 
Amen, Christine!

I know it's been said before on this thread, but it's not up to the wife's Christian liberty to decide when to submit. That's only agreeing & doing what you WANT to do! When we submit we humble ourselves as servants, pushing our female pride/manipulative nature out of the way and doing what God and our husbands have asked of us...

Would Christ's command for us to love all people be an example of something that He does not do but expects us to do? It's difficult to love those who hate and persecute you - but we're still supposed to do it, even if we feel justified in our own hate for them. We would not do so out of the "goodness" ;) of our own hearts, & we don't WANT to do it - we only do it because the Lord commands it.
 
5solasmom,

Obedience IS true obedience when our hearts obey. If we relegate "obedience" to mean doing something someone tells you to regardless of their or our sinful attitude in it, we are defining obedience as merely EXTERNAL ACTION.
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When I read some things I wonder if people think when a women becomes a wife she leaves the rest of her brain and Who she is in Christ as a CHRISTAIN at the front door.

The Bible tells me as a Christian, of which I am first even before I am a wife, I am to make my Yes mean Yes, and my No mean No. It also says to do everything without complaining. If my husband were to ask me to do something that I really don't want to do and I do it because I feel I would be sinning by not being the submissive wife to every word, then I am still sinning. As I'm not doing it because I WANT to do it to please Him, but out of obligation.

It most certainly has to do with the heart, Even God does not want us to serve Him because we think we are some how "obligated" to do so, that's not love.

God does not NEED US to serve Him, He WANTS us to with a JOYFUL heart, without complaining, without feeling pressured to do so, without feeling as if we are some how sinning if we don't. God does not in anyway want us to feel forced to do anything we don't want to do which is why He gave us Free will to choose. We are not puppets on a string. But, He wants us to CHOOSE to serve Him, He wants us to WANT to serve Him out of our Love for Him, out of the very Love He has placed in us through the Holy Spirit.

if you don't want to serve in a ministry then DON'T, God isn't going to pressure us to do something we do not want to do, He will change our want to if we allow Him to do so, but He won't force or pressure us to serve.

And as a marriage is supposed to show Christ's relationship with the Church, it should be the same way, you submit because you WANT to submit, You do things for your spouse not just because they said too, but
because you WANT to out of your love for them, anything less is not love.

but then that is my understanding of what God has taught me over the years.
 
MissSolaFide,


Would Christ's command for us to love all people be an example of something that He does not do but expects us to do? It's difficult to love those who hate and persecute you - but we're still supposed to do it, even if we feel justified in our own hate for them. We would not do so out of the "goodness" ;) of our own hearts, & we don't WANT to do it - we only do it because the Lord commands it.
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We only do it because of the Holy Spirit within us helps us to do it, He gives us the WANT to, we don't do it just because He commands it, but because HE changes our want to, but even then we still have a choice to do it or not. (though if we choose not to, there are consequences of quenching the spirit within us)
 
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