Ploutos
Puritan Board Sophomore
So it's more a matter of exposing one's self to demonic influence, in the same way that one might be corrupted by hanging around bad company? Only in this case the company is demons, not druggies?
Is Mental Illness Real?
- Thread starter erickinho1bra
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Taahanni
Puritan Board Freshman
Do you have recommended readings on this in addition to the story to which you referred?
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
All of Clinton Arnold's works.
9 times out of 10, probably. If someone has willfully engaged in astral projection, Ouija boards, or worked in the Remote Viewing section of the government, then they probably need something like a formal exorcism.
Taahanni
Puritan Board Freshman
Do you think formal exorcisms are Biblical?
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
If by that you mean all the Roman Catholic "trappings," then no. That said, if you look at how Jesus and the apostles drive out demons, there isn't one single method. True, they all say "In the name of Jesus, come out," or something like that.
But I am not sure what you mean by "formal exorcisms."
Taahanni
Puritan Board Freshman
My apologies, I should have asked what you initially meant by “formal exorcisms” first, to avoid misunderstanding!
Ploutos
Puritan Board Sophomore
@RamistThomist I am also interested to hear what you mean by a formal exorcism. You also seem to be making a distinction between what you refer to as demonic influence and what happens when one starts playing with Ouija boards. Could you elaborate there? That would seem to be what @Taahanni was referring to as the difference between oppression and possession, but you didn't seem too fond of those terms, so I'm wondering if you have something different in mind.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
I suppose it comes down to whether you engage in activities that give unclean spirits (which are demons proper, but that does not exhaust the whole taxonomy of enemy spirits) a legal topos to your person. Most sins we commit do not give the enemy such rights. Stuff like Ouija boards, however, take it to another level. That doesn't mean, of course, that everyone who plays with a Ouija board experiences this.
Ploutos
Puritan Board Sophomore
What does it mean to give an unclean spirit a legal topos to your person?
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
I'm speaking loosely. I am using the Greek from the famous verse "Do not give the devil a foothold." Foothold is topos, place. I don't believe that demons can possess a Christian's spirit, since we have the Holy Spirit. They can, however, attack to our flesh.
Ploutos
Puritan Board Sophomore
I'm thinking more in the context of an unbeliever, since I generally think believers, unless really really ignorant, wouldn't mess with Ouija boards or other overtly occultic matters.
Can demons possess a non-Christian's spirit? What does that look like, in your opinion?
Also, was that meant to be "attack" or "attach"?
Taahanni
Puritan Board Freshman
I agree with this. This is what I meant by differentiating between oppression versus possession. I think one must open the door for demons to take a foothold, as you have said. I used the term oppression to indicate periods of powerful temptation or severe affliction of some sort. I am not a Greek scholar though, so I appreciate the education in what the original words mean.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Yes. A good example is the slave girl in Acts who had a Python spirit.
Attach, like leeches.
Ploutos
Puritan Board Sophomore
Can you recommend some basic introductory reading on this topic for me?
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
3 Crucial Questions about Spiritual warfare
Arnold, Clinton. 3 Crucial Questions on Spiritual Warfare. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic, 1997. Continuing with the material in his dissertation on Ephesians, Clinton Arnold gives top-level scho…
tentsofshem.wordpress.com
Satan Cast Out (Leahy)
Leahy, Frederick. Satan Cast Out: A Study in Biblical Demonology. Carlisle, PA: Banner of Truth Trust, 1975. This is a decent summary of evangelical scholarship concerning demonology around the tim…
tentsofshem.wordpress.com
Demons in the World Today (Unger)
Unger, Merrill. Demons in the World Today. Tyndale. Merrill Unger writes with much force and energy and in a clear style. While he gets many details wrong, the general thrust of his argument is co…
tentsofshem.wordpress.com
Power and Magic: The Concept of Power in Ephesians
Arnold, Clinton. Power and Magic: The Concept of Power in Ephesians. Eugene, OR: Wipf & Stock, 1989. It has long been my understanding that some evangelicals get their demonology from mov…
tentsofshem.wordpress.com
Clinton Arnold: Powers of Darkness: Principalities & Powers in Paul's Letters
Arnold, Clinton. Powers of Darkness: Principalities and Powers in Paul's Letters. Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsityPress, 1992. In many ways this is a shortened version of his dissertation. But it can also function as a supernaturalist, evangelical response to the then (and now) current...
Review: Principalities and Powers (Montgomery)
Montgomery, John Warwick. This is the best mature Evangelical treatment on the subject. Conservative evangelicalism faces a schizophrenia on this topic. On one hand, they know that the demonic and …
tentsofshem.wordpress.com
Ryan&Amber2013
Puritan Board Senior
So you're not necessarily talking about a demon living inside of somebody, but more of like a stalker?
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
At the lower levels, correct. For more sinister sins, an unclean spirit can live inside a person, such as the python spirit in the slave girl.
I have taken an interest in mental illness because it runs in our family. What do you think of a holistic approach?
1. There is fascinating research being done in my country on the relationship between good nutrition and mental health. It seems that the evidence is clear, healthy food makes a big difference along with regular excercise. Improving both brain health AND gut health is very important.
Transforming our mental health through nutrition | University of Canterbury
#IWD #BreakTheBias Seeing people get better is the main driver in University of Canterbury Professor of Clinical Psychology Julia Rucklidge’s pursuit to change the treatment of mental illness.
www.canterbury.ac.nz
2. Much is made these days of mindfulness meditation which is basically Buddhist meditation repackaged for a secular audience. But Puritan meditation is a tremendous approach to help and heal the troubled mind. Meditate on the Psalms and sing them. Donald Whitney's book "Spiritual Disciplines for the Christian Life " is very helpful book for working on Disciplines to mature ones Spiritual life.
3. I have read research showing that a supportive community plays a big factor in improving mental health outcomes. Thus feeling loved in a church, a true covenant community, is very important.
4. It is not only important to work on brain health, but developing the brain by learning new skills is very helpful- skills such as doing serious training in theology etc, learn a new sport, a new musical instrument, a new language etc. Also skills to solve the practical challenges of life.
Just a few thoughts.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
These talks by Vern Poythress are a really good place to start.
Spiritual Warfare - Westminster Theological Seminary
“The gospel is a message of victory over the demonic.” –Dr. Vern Poythress Watch Dr. Vern Poythress’s lectures on “Spiritual Warfare.” Dr. Poythress delivered Part I, preaching from Job 1–2, as part of our 2019 chapel series, “Great Texts about Preaching.” Parts II–III were delivered as special...
faculty.wts.edu
Jerusalem Blade
Puritan Board Professor
First, to go back to "mental illness" and away from the demonic, at least for the moment.
I am familiar with friends, siblings, I would say have PTSD, although I saw one counselor say that in the case of Christians the D for disorder should be dropped, as the Spirit who gives us a sound mind (2 Tim1:7KJV) indwells them.
Re the siblings, girls, then below the age of 10, one suffered sexual abuse by a person close to the family for a relatively long period. There is such a thing as having the psyche traumatized and "coping mechanisms" adopted "unconsciously" so as to be able to function, such as forgetfulness of the trauma, and other psychological phenomena, eventually, in adulthood, manifesting as distinct post-trauma stress patterns and behaviors. In the abused one, it was severe, and – even after the trauma was remembered – the patterns and behaviors were not controllable, or even, mostly, discerned. In the other sib, having the relationship disrupted by a third party caused a differing, and still very severe PTSD.
In the abused one, she became a genuine Christian, and this in itself causing a major stabilizing force in her life – Jesus, and continual access to Him and His guidance and care. She is a godly woman in her mature age, yet still has severe blind spots and disability. Mental illness, as noted above, can be caused by psychological damage.
-------
Re the demonic: a factor not often realized in these days due to its wide-spread use and cultural spin of benignity, is sorcery, in the NT and OT Greek Septuagint, pharmakeia φαρμακεία, which are the agents (drugs, either natural or lab-produced) with unique properties, that give the users awareness in the spirit world. This was introduced on a massive scale in the 1960s and 70s in the U.S. and U.K. countercultures, to the point that it could be called recreational sorcery. I've written a lot about this here so I won't elaborate much, suffice it to say that we in those days had been seduced (through a Trojan Horse from Hell) into the demonic realm (though it initially purported to be the divine), and there was much demonic activity entering the human sphere resulting from that.
This is something that shamans, occultists, spiritualists, pagan worshippers, witch doctors, etc are well aware of, as well as some worldly users – getting high on these particular agents, the psychedelics or entheogens is having your awareness elevated into that realm. Not only was it a thing back then, but now in 2024, not only is extremely potent grass widely legal, but the other psychedelics – psilocybin mushrooms, LSD, DMT, ayahuasca, peyote, etc – and related compounds like MDMA and ketamine are either legal or touted as therapeutic (meaning to most, healthful)! I am referring only to the psychedelics, not traditional legitimate medicines.
What this means is that our zeitgeist – spirit of the age, or collective consciousness – is increasingly saturated with demonic content, influence, and presence. The increase of violence – its being considered legitimate and warranted politically, as well as our culture generally becoming much more so, vulgarity and sexual "openness", trans and LGBTQ+ and gender fluidity, governmental disinformation and increasing oppressive control, all are indicators of a massive incursion of demonic spirits into our society and lives. We don't recognize the "demonic" aspect of them as these things have become so normalized.
Those who are not shielded and armed by the seal of God and the indwelling of His Spirit and word are all vulnerable to this rising tide of madness.
Yes, in the pockets of mostly sane people – mostly Christian or very conservative enclaves – bizarre evil-driven behaviors can be discerned as demon-influenced, but our world is being groomed for a fuller infilling, the end of which is the silencing of the greatly offending presentation of the life-giving Gospel of Jesus Christ, and the targeting for extermination of the entire Christian community globally the planned finale of the evil one – in the midst of which atrocity our Saviour and King will return to rescue and raise us unto Himself and execute His wrath on those who hurt His precious bride.
Some thoughts on this in eschatological terms:
UNCOVERING PROPHETIC DETAILS IN REVELATION: Restoring confidence in the applicability of John’s Apocalypse, the final prophecy:
I am familiar with friends, siblings, I would say have PTSD, although I saw one counselor say that in the case of Christians the D for disorder should be dropped, as the Spirit who gives us a sound mind (2 Tim1:7KJV) indwells them.
Re the siblings, girls, then below the age of 10, one suffered sexual abuse by a person close to the family for a relatively long period. There is such a thing as having the psyche traumatized and "coping mechanisms" adopted "unconsciously" so as to be able to function, such as forgetfulness of the trauma, and other psychological phenomena, eventually, in adulthood, manifesting as distinct post-trauma stress patterns and behaviors. In the abused one, it was severe, and – even after the trauma was remembered – the patterns and behaviors were not controllable, or even, mostly, discerned. In the other sib, having the relationship disrupted by a third party caused a differing, and still very severe PTSD.
In the abused one, she became a genuine Christian, and this in itself causing a major stabilizing force in her life – Jesus, and continual access to Him and His guidance and care. She is a godly woman in her mature age, yet still has severe blind spots and disability. Mental illness, as noted above, can be caused by psychological damage.
-------
Re the demonic: a factor not often realized in these days due to its wide-spread use and cultural spin of benignity, is sorcery, in the NT and OT Greek Septuagint, pharmakeia φαρμακεία, which are the agents (drugs, either natural or lab-produced) with unique properties, that give the users awareness in the spirit world. This was introduced on a massive scale in the 1960s and 70s in the U.S. and U.K. countercultures, to the point that it could be called recreational sorcery. I've written a lot about this here so I won't elaborate much, suffice it to say that we in those days had been seduced (through a Trojan Horse from Hell) into the demonic realm (though it initially purported to be the divine), and there was much demonic activity entering the human sphere resulting from that.
This is something that shamans, occultists, spiritualists, pagan worshippers, witch doctors, etc are well aware of, as well as some worldly users – getting high on these particular agents, the psychedelics or entheogens is having your awareness elevated into that realm. Not only was it a thing back then, but now in 2024, not only is extremely potent grass widely legal, but the other psychedelics – psilocybin mushrooms, LSD, DMT, ayahuasca, peyote, etc – and related compounds like MDMA and ketamine are either legal or touted as therapeutic (meaning to most, healthful)! I am referring only to the psychedelics, not traditional legitimate medicines.
What this means is that our zeitgeist – spirit of the age, or collective consciousness – is increasingly saturated with demonic content, influence, and presence. The increase of violence – its being considered legitimate and warranted politically, as well as our culture generally becoming much more so, vulgarity and sexual "openness", trans and LGBTQ+ and gender fluidity, governmental disinformation and increasing oppressive control, all are indicators of a massive incursion of demonic spirits into our society and lives. We don't recognize the "demonic" aspect of them as these things have become so normalized.
Those who are not shielded and armed by the seal of God and the indwelling of His Spirit and word are all vulnerable to this rising tide of madness.
Yes, in the pockets of mostly sane people – mostly Christian or very conservative enclaves – bizarre evil-driven behaviors can be discerned as demon-influenced, but our world is being groomed for a fuller infilling, the end of which is the silencing of the greatly offending presentation of the life-giving Gospel of Jesus Christ, and the targeting for extermination of the entire Christian community globally the planned finale of the evil one – in the midst of which atrocity our Saviour and King will return to rescue and raise us unto Himself and execute His wrath on those who hurt His precious bride.
Some thoughts on this in eschatological terms:
UNCOVERING PROPHETIC DETAILS IN REVELATION: Restoring confidence in the applicability of John’s Apocalypse, the final prophecy:
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I want to expand further on this. I believe the Nouthetic approach is not helpful when it comes to supporting or counseling the mentally ill. It does not take into the complexity of mental illness, and a confrontal approach may do more harm than good.
Dr Gaius Davies suggested an alternative model - the Paraclete model. Dr Davies was a highly esteemed Christian Psychiatrist in the UK. He went to the same medical school as Dr Lloyd-Jones (St Barts). Dr Davies helped Dr Lloyd-Jones help members of Westminster Chapel who were struggling with their mental health. Dr Davies was very critical of the Nouthetic approach for the reasons stated above. He argued the Paraclete model was best - come alongside and help. Because the mentally ill face vary difficult challenges they need people to come alongside and help them.
Obviously sin always must be dealt with. Wisdom is needed.
John Bunion's Big Toe
Puritan Board Freshman
I find people say this about nouthetic counseling a lot, but what a strange argument. The purpose of nouthetic counseling is 100% to go along side and help others. I don't think "therapy" is necessary in most cases if the church is doing its job and offering proper support and accountability. For what it's worth, I've seen a number of people go to "therapy" with "Christian" counselors, and they've come out so much more messed up and entangled in sin that I can't see how people recommend it. On one hand you have people saying nouthetic counseling is dangerous because it uses Scripture as its base, yet on the other hand the same people often act like there is not even greater harm coming from these so called "counselors"? Make it make sense to me, because it does not. Both psychology and psychiatry have their roots in secular worldviews that hate God, but we need them because the Bible is not good enough? At the end of the day the question is whose experience is more valid- mine, yours, or someone elses?
I have read through this thread and I have yet to see more than one person appeal to Scripture for any of their reasoning- only their own experiences and their training at secular places of education. The Scripture is clear that downcast spirit leads to sick bones. I think the order there is telling.
The strangest comment I saw, probably by far, was the one user who said something like "We didn't need to use the Bible to treat this person- praise God!"
Does the strangeness of this topic ever end?
alexanderjames
Puritan Board Sophomore
I was going to say, I wonder how much of the mental health crisis would resolve itself if everyone had a simple healthy diet; minimised the use of screen time and the internet; was regularly involved in the life of an active church; and spent regular time in nature.I have taken an interest in mental illness because it runs in our family. What do you think of a holistic approach?
1. There is fascinating research being done in my country on the relationship between good nutrition and mental health. It seems that the evidence is clear, healthy food makes a big difference along with regular excercise. Improving both brain health AND gut health is very important.
Transforming our mental health through nutrition | University of Canterbury
#IWD #BreakTheBias Seeing people get better is the main driver in University of Canterbury Professor of Clinical Psychology Julia Rucklidge’s pursuit to change the treatment of mental illness.
2. Much is made these days of mindfulness meditation which is basically Buddhist meditation repackaged for a secular audience. But Puritan meditation is a tremendous approach to help and heal the troubled mind. Meditate on the Psalms and sing them. Donald Whitney's book "Spiritual Disciplines for the Christian Life " is very helpful book for working on Disciplines to mature ones Spiritual life.
3. I have read research showing that a supportive community plays a big factor in improving mental health outcomes. Thus feeling loved in a church, a true covenant community, is very important.
4. It is not only important to work on brain health, but developing the brain by learning new skills is very helpful- skills such as doing serious training in theology etc, learn a new sport, a new musical instrument, a new language etc. Also skills to solve the practical challenges of life.
Just a few thoughts.
Most importantly I have always seen spiritual health and thoroughly connected to my own mental health.
(Not having read all of the replies I realise my comment may largely be redundant!)
You miss the point. I said nothing about secular therapy. Simonetta Carr wrote an excellent book "Broken pieces and the God who mends them ". In this book she clearly explains the complexities of mental health. Dr Bredenhof's excellent review of Carr's book illustrates this. Dr Bredenhof nicely illustrates why the Paraclete approach best helps people face the complexities of mental illness https://bredenhof.ca/2019/07/10/book-review-broken-pieces/
Taahanni
Puritan Board Freshman
Thank you for these! I listened to them and found them to be helpful.These talks by Vern Poythress are a really good place to start.
Spiritual Warfare - Westminster Theological Seminary
“The gospel is a message of victory over the demonic.” –Dr. Vern Poythress Watch Dr. Vern Poythress’s lectures on “Spiritual Warfare.” Dr. Poythress delivered Part I, preaching from Job 1–2, as part of our 2019 chapel series, “Great Texts about Preaching.” Parts II–III were delivered as special...
Taahanni
Puritan Board Freshman
When I was practicing, I very much took a holistic approach. I believed in educating my clients about diet and exercise and how poor diet/lack of exercise play big roles in depression as well as anxiety. I mentioned earlier in this thread that most serotonin is produced in the gut and that I have spoken with people whose mental ailments disappeared when they adjusted their diet and physical lifestyle.I have taken an interest in mental illness because it runs in our family. What do you think of a holistic approach?
1. There is fascinating research being done in my country on the relationship between good nutrition and mental health. It seems that the evidence is clear, healthy food makes a big difference along with regular excercise. Improving both brain health AND gut health is very important.
Transforming our mental health through nutrition | University of Canterbury
#IWD #BreakTheBias Seeing people get better is the main driver in University of Canterbury Professor of Clinical Psychology Julia Rucklidge’s pursuit to change the treatment of mental illness.
2. Much is made these days of mindfulness meditation which is basically Buddhist meditation repackaged for a secular audience. But Puritan meditation is a tremendous approach to help and heal the troubled mind. Meditate on the Psalms and sing them. Donald Whitney's book "Spiritual Disciplines for the Christian Life " is very helpful book for working on Disciplines to mature ones Spiritual life.
3. I have read research showing that a supportive community plays a big factor in improving mental health outcomes. Thus feeling loved in a church, a true covenant community, is very important.
4. It is not only important to work on brain health, but developing the brain by learning new skills is very helpful- skills such as doing serious training in theology etc, learn a new sport, a new musical instrument, a new language etc. Also skills to solve the practical challenges of life.
Just a few thoughts.
I am also very aware of the benefits of Biblical mindfulness/meditation. As long as one does not allow new age philosophies to seep into one’s thinking, mindfulness is very beneficial. I do not believe in “emptying the mind” as most mindfulness practices will have you do. We are called to meditate upon the Word day and night, so rather than emptying one’s mind, we need to replace the bad (sin, anxieties, etc) with the good (prayer, the Word, etc).
On community, I wholeheartedly agree. God designed humans to be in fellowship, and the fall tainted this by creating conflict and ailments/sin that isolate us. Some therapists out there have even referred to depression as a “social disorder”. Spending time with other people who are good influences is something I strongly encouraged my clients to do, and if they professed to be a Christian, I emphasized to them to get to a solid church.
Finally, I also taught my clients about the importance of challenging oneself in various ways, i.e. setting goals for self improvement/education. God designed our brains to be active just like He designed our bodies to be active. I definitely believe we are called to be good stewards of our brains and our bodies by staying active to the best of our abilities.
Sorry this is rather brief and that it took a bit to respond… my child is going through a growth spurt, and therefore so am I as a mother!
John Bunion's Big Toe
Puritan Board Freshman
Thank you for the book recommendation. I'll look into it. I'm familiar with Care through her Children's books, but I'm not familiar with the Paraclete method. I'd appreciate any resources that explain it.
To be clear, my point was that it seems nouthetic counseling is misrepresented to the point that it often seems (to me) that people are just intellectually not honest about it. Even Jay Adams said there are times for use of therapeutics, but they are rare. I also find the adoption of the term "mental illness" disturbing. I believe it's a secular term and not one that is helpful. I would like to see it disappear from the vocabulary of normal Christians.
ZackF
Puritan Board Professor
Cancer, heart attacks, strokes, pulmonary embolism, and chicken pox are secular terms.
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ZackF
Puritan Board Professor
Thank you Monica and many others who contributed to this subject in an edifying way. I plan on reading through the whole thing again when I get a chance.
Respectfully, MacArthur's remarks were ignorant and demonstrate such a truncated view of causality.
Like in other areas, looking at adjacent conditions other than seemingly abstract conditions can shed light on the subject. Unless I missed it, demetia has not been considered. If I missed it, I'll write more after going through the thread again. Dementia makes for better thought experiments because the idea of a physical cause being the source of negative and reduced cognitive and behavioral output is not controversial.
My main point is to those who would outright dismiss secular designations, often just symptom clusters, and necessarily deny any physical casaulity that cannot be directly attributable to a sin. Here is the rub: should a person with dementia be placed on church discipline for saying horrible things about his neighbor that hitherto we unheard of? Is he merely sinning?
This is where wisdom comes in to play with medication and "confrontation."
Respectfully, MacArthur's remarks were ignorant and demonstrate such a truncated view of causality.
Like in other areas, looking at adjacent conditions other than seemingly abstract conditions can shed light on the subject. Unless I missed it, demetia has not been considered. If I missed it, I'll write more after going through the thread again. Dementia makes for better thought experiments because the idea of a physical cause being the source of negative and reduced cognitive and behavioral output is not controversial.
My main point is to those who would outright dismiss secular designations, often just symptom clusters, and necessarily deny any physical casaulity that cannot be directly attributable to a sin. Here is the rub: should a person with dementia be placed on church discipline for saying horrible things about his neighbor that hitherto we unheard of? Is he merely sinning?
This is where wisdom comes in to play with medication and "confrontation."
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