Is Mental Illness Real?

[Semper Fidelis]

I haven't had time to go through this thread yet, but this is worth reading (or listening to): https://albertmohler.com/2014/04/21...nversation-with-psychiatrist-e-fuller-torrey/

The Psychiatrist interviewed points out what most of us know - that there is real mental illness and that this ought to be much of our focus. There is, however, a preponderance of money that goes to what he calls the "Worried Well". Not that their worries are immaterial, but that we tend to medicate for many problems that might have other solutions.

I want to be very careful here so as not to discourage any who suffer from maladies and come up with some simplistic answer to people's sorrows or depressing thoughts. A wise counselor doesn't simply tell people that their problem is a lack of faith or that they worry too much, or come up with pat answers to difficult problems.

That said, the use of things like Prozac is very interesting. Prozac was approved in the US years ago as a treatment for depression. But it wasn't approved for use in France. Why? Because, in clinical trials, a placebo was as effective at treating depression in France as was Prozac. In the U.S. population, however, it was shown to correlate to slightly better outcomes for the depressed than a placebo. What began to worry people (no pun intended) was that, after years of use, placebos were starting to become just as effective as Prozac, and scientists couldn't figure out what was happening.

I think humility would require that we admit that we don't know nearly as much as we claim about how our minds work and, by that, I mean our soul-body connection. We should not throw out what we've learned empirically when we have figured out that certain chemical or mineral imbalances can be corrected. For that matter, UTI's sometimes lead to what appears to be dementia in older people. Doctors are a blessing.

But we all need physicians of the soul and we don't even know how principalities and powers may be pressing down upon us.

Bottom line is avoid any advice about real problems that you can fit into an easy answer.

 

[No Other Name]

UTI's

My brain can only process this acronym as urinary tract infections, but that can't be correct? What does UTI mean?

 

[Charles Johnson]

My brain can only process this acronym as urinary tract infections, but that can't be correct? What does UTI mean?

That's what he means. Urinary Tract infections.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

That's what he means. Urinary Tract infections.

Yes. It is very common for a UTI to make an Elderly person very confused. It could be mistaken even as the person having a stoke in terms of sudden confusion.

By the way, I read through the thread, and I don't understand why people are so hesitant to admit that Psychiatric answers to what they categorize as mental illness may not be correct in all cases.

Again, distinguish between known problems that may have a solution and the mass of "mental illnesses" that are in the DSM-V. You don't have to deny that some people have severe problems that can be associated with physiological sources while being skeptical of what psychologists or other "mental health professionals" say the solution to a problem is.

I'm not taking the side of the "pray it away" or "be grateful" crowd here.

You simply cannot turn a problem over to an "expert" because there are so many complexities to the human condition. A medical or counseling degree does not make someone a wise counselor any more than an MDiv does.

My wife has a Master's in Marriage and Family Therapy, which is equivalent to a Licensed Professional Therapist with a Marriage and Family focus. Both Psychiatric and Psychological degree programs focus on models of human behavior that assume a non-Biblical anthropology. That's not to say that, because people who focus on human behavior cannot notice patterns in human behavior and certain tactics that can be useful, but that owes to people being created in the image of God. My wife, for instance, uses certain techniques she has learned to counsel young people, but she doesn't rely upon behavioral models of human thought to explain why they are thinking the way they do.

My eldest is on the Autism spectrum and has ADHD. When I state this, I'm not blindly quoting the DSM-V to put my son in a box, but he has obvious issues in his ability to focus, ability to mentally process, and delayed executive skills that are measurable. He struggles with Math but is a great writer and is slowly working on a college degree. He can drive, but even after going to a 6-week driving program, he is not yet at a place where he can safely drive without someone keeping him focused. I believe this will come with time. It wasn't until last year that we decided to let him try using Aderol, which he only takes before class to help him focus. It seems to work better than coffee. His Psychiatrist is very conservative and does not want him taking it too much. He also suffers from focusing too much on bad things and gets depressed. He speaks with a counselor regularly, and it helps, but I layer in things from the Gospel that he needs to consider that she is not giving him. If I had an easy answer for my Son I would have done so years ago.

With all of this, I am a fan of insights from places like CCEF or mature expressions of how to counsel people but, in the end, I believe knowing how to help people requires wisdom and no training course, no medical degree, or no model ever fully comprehends something as complex as the person standing in front of you that is created in the Image of God. Any parent of an adult child understands this, much less a man trying to be a good husband after 28 years of marriage.

 

[Taahanni]

Permit me to share my thoughts and perspective as someone who worked as a mental health and substance abuse counselor for several years before quitting and taking on the joyful endeavor of full-time motherhood. This is a topic I have pondered--and continue to ponder--deeply because of how controversial it is and because it was my career. For a little bit of background, I worked in a secular company as therapist for a little over six years doing both group and individual therapy, and I always took advantage of any opportunity to share the Gospel with my clients. I could get away with this easily because of the "Spirituality" principle in AA--pretty good loophole, no? The majority of my clients had trauma of varying degrees, such as witnessing violence throughout childhood or suffering severe abuse from parents. Anyway, though I see value in mental health counseling (as I will expound upon shortly), I firmly believe that fully overcoming afflictions that lead one to see a therapist is not possible without Christ being the center of one's life.

Onto the topic, I most certainly believe that too many Christians have allowed themselves to become influenced by culture and have "medicalized" sin by treating ailments like an illness rather than sin. How often do we hear these days things such as "I have anxiety", as if anxiety is some external affliction they cannot help rather than an internal one. This may seem semantic, but I do believe there is a difference between saying, "I feel anxious," versus saying, "I have anxiety." One of those statements shirks responsibility. (Please note in this example, I am referring to "basic" anxiety, not anxiety stemming from deep-rooted issues like trauma.)

At the same time, I think too many Christians oversimplify mental health issues by saying a Bible verse is the cure for everything. I do not think it is syncretism to say sometimes a person needs a counselor well-versed in therapeutic methods that are not nouthetic. I believe there are times an individual's mental health issues are a demonstration of the fall more than a demonstration of sin they are not combating. Trauma is an excellent example of this because trauma does physically affect one's brain and body in negative ways. Severe trauma that goes unresolved hinders a child's cognitive development and goes on to affect his or her ability to function well in adult life. Sometimes I wonder why Christians think it is acceptable to see a nutritionist because they cannot get their weight and diet under control when they could turn to Scripture verses to glorify God in their bodies, but they disdain people who cannot get their depression under control with Bible verses about being joyful. I do think there can be a physical component to depression because the brain is an organ just like the stomach; though, obviously the brain is more complex. I have seen people who have had their depression remedied by talking to a professional who helped them change their diet and physical lifestyle, and I think that is really marvelous. (Fun fact: Did you know the majority of your body's serotonin is produced in the gut and not the brain?) However, even with all of that, everything should always be tied to Scripture. Someone who sees a counselor for a mental issue should still be seeking Biblical guidance from a pastor and/or mentor because nothing can be separated from Scripture. What is best is seeing a therapist or counselor who is a true Bible-believing Christian who can use some of the therapeutic methods developed by researchers while always pointing the person back to Scripture.

Ultimately, I think it would be marvelous if more Christians acknowledged the fact that some therapeutic methods out there are gifts from God. Man is the pinnacle of His creation, and He gave us inquiring minds. God has revealed to those inquiring minds how complex the brain is. Consider ART (Accelerated Resolution Therapy), which was designed for helping individuals with PTSD. One can go through a whole ART session without hearing a single Bible verse, but they leave that session experiencing dramatic change because their trauma is not haunting them anymore. Is that not wonderful? I was trained in this therapy and saw firsthand remarkable results in several clients. These clients would have recurring nightmares and flashbacks about their trauma(s), and in a follow-up one week later, they would reveal to me that they hardly even think about that trauma anymore. Praise God!

Final note: please do not interpret this as me saying that all forms of mental health counseling/therapy are acceptable. Again, everything should be done in light of Scripture. Therapeutic techniques like hypnosis, reiki, "unconditional positive regard", and others are antithetical to Scripture and should not be used by believers. I also have a lot to say about the field of psychiatry, but for brevity, I will stop here and only share those thoughts if asked.

 

[py3ak]

I also have a lot to say about the field of psychiatry, but for brevity, I will stop here and only share those thoughts if asked.

Please share those thoughts when you have an opportunity. I enjoyed reading what you wrote so far and found it profitable.

 

[No Other Name]

I found this section to be particularly insightful:

I believe there are times an individual's mental health issues are a demonstration of the fall more than a demonstration of sin they are not combating. Trauma is an excellent example of this because trauma does physically affect one's brain and body in negative ways. Severe trauma that goes unresolved hinders a child's cognitive development and goes on to affect his or her ability to function well in adult life. Sometimes I wonder why Christians think it is acceptable to see a nutritionist because they cannot get their weight and diet under control when they could turn to Scripture verses to glorify God in their bodies, but they disdain people who cannot get their depression under control with Bible verses about being joyful. I do think there can be a physical component to depression because the brain is an organ just like the stomach; though, obviously the brain is more complex. I have seen people who have had their depression remedied by talking to a professional who helped them change their diet and physical lifestyle, and I think that is really marvelous. (Fun fact: Did you know the majority of your body's serotonin is produced in the gut and not the brain?) However, even with all of that, everything should always be tied to Scripture. Someone who sees a counselor for a mental issue should still be seeking Biblical guidance from a pastor and/or mentor because nothing can be separated from Scripture. What is best is seeing a therapist or counselor who is a true Bible-believing Christian who can use some of the therapeutic methods developed by researchers while always pointing the person back to Scripture.

I also have a lot to say about the field of psychiatry, but for brevity, I will stop here and only share those thoughts if asked.

Consider this post another request for your thoughts on the field of psychiatry, thanks.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Just to pile on from the benefits that certain insights gained from the study of how people think...

My youngest has struggled academically for some time. We have home-schooled all our children up to the High School years. The oldest, on the Autism spectrum, benefitted greatly from this, but we did eventually put him into a private school in the area that specializes with kids who have severe learning disabilities.

They also provide tutoring sessions, and our youngest (now 12) started working with them while home-schooled. He was years behind in math and reading and, while working with them, they noticed that his eyes were jumping lines while reading. They recommended vision therapy and he's been seeing a vision therapist for a couple of years and his reading ability proceeded rapidly as has his ability to do math.

 

[Dkshotwell]

Just to pile on from the benefits that certain insights gained from the study of how people think...

My youngest has struggled academically for some time. We have home-schooled all our children up to the High School years. The oldest, on the Autism spectrum, benefitted greatly from this, but we did eventually put him into a private school in the area that specializes with kids who have severe learning disabilities.

They also provide tutoring sessions, and our youngest (now 12) started working with them while home-schooled. He was years behind in math and reading and, while working with them, they noticed that his eyes were jumping lines while reading. They recommended vision therapy and he's been seeing a vision therapist for a couple of years and his reading ability proceeded rapidly as has his ability to do math.

That's interesting, did the vision therapist have an explanation as to why your sons eyes would jump like that, like perhaps some sort of electrical impulse affecting that which controls the eyes movement? I hope my question is not invasive.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

That's interesting, did the vision therapist have an explanation as to why your sons eyes would jump like that, like perhaps some sort of electrical impulse affecting that which controls the eyes movement? I hope my question is not invasive.

Not so much. It's just that they can detect when it happens and have all sorts of interesting approaches to help people with exercises to overcome it. I often wonder how many children are lost academically who have this condition.

 

[Ploutos]

Not so much. It's just that they can detect when it happens and have all sorts of interesting approaches to help people with exercises to overcome it. I often wonder how many children are lost academically who have this condition.

Is there a link between that sort of eye restlessness and dyslexia? In other words, is that one possible reason behind a lot of dyslexia diagnoses?

 

[No Other Name]

Is there a link between that sort of eye restlessness and dyslexia? In other words, is that one possible reason behind a lot of dyslexia diagnoses?

It's a sad state of affairs that I am waiting for Rich's response here and will trust it more than any certified special ed professional I have ever met in public/private education

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Is there a link between that sort of eye restlessness and dyslexia? In other words, is that one possible reason behind a lot of dyslexia diagnoses?

I wondered the same thing. The doctor that provides the Vision Therapy for my son is at an optometry place in Northern VA. Even though it is proven to be beneficial to those who need it, Insurance companies don't pay for it, and I'm not sure it's as ubiquitous as other methods to address learning disabilities. I'm not even sure everyone who works with learning disabilities always catches the "tells" for it. I always wish, after the fact, I knew more about things like this so that I could get my kids help earlier. I mentioned earlier that my oldest is on the Autism spectrum and you can't imagine how frustrating it was to not understand what was so hard about teaching him. I've always been able to provide for my family in such a way that my wife could focus her full energy on educating the children, but not everyone is able to do that and to notice problems that are exhausting and difficult. I don't think my children will fully appreciate how well she educated and cared for them until they have children of their own.

 

[Taahanni]

Please share those thoughts when you have an opportunity. I enjoyed reading what you wrote so far and found it profitable.

Here are some of my thoughts on psychiatry. I think there are many issues with this field, and maybe my experience in the counseling realm has tainted my perspective, but I do try to be objective. I will try to organize my thoughts in a clear manner because I do have a lot to say about this subject.

1) Psychiatry has a faulty foundation. Though there are exceptions, most psychiatrists make a long term assessment of a person’s well-being and state of mind from a short window of interaction and information gathering, and their primary function is to prescribe medication. Many people are not aware that psychiatrists go to medical school with a focus on mental health; they do not go to a doctorate/graduate program for counseling like psychologists and mental health therapists/counselors do. Psychiatry is therefore based on a different framework than counseling. It is a framework that I find to be reductionistic and views humans as mechanical/animalistic. I do not think psychiatrists are unwilling to look at the whole picture due to hubris (though I know there are psychiatrists out there with major hubris) but rather are unable to look at the whole picture because they have bought into a philosophy that reduces humans to machines and chemical reactions.

2) Psychiatry proposes one finds healing in the wrong places. Now, it is important at this point that I state I do not think all psychiatric practice is bad. I strongly advocate for the use of psychotropic medications in cases where a person truly needs a “booster” to get back on track (e.g. a person whose depression has gotten so severe they cannot get out of bed or take care of themselves). I view such medications as having the same function as braces do for fractured bones. When you have a broken leg, you get a brace to immobilize the whole leg so the bone that was broken can heal even though there are parts of your leg that were not broken. Eventually, that brace is taken off, and while the bone that was broken is healed, you have a lot of work to do to regain the strength you lost from having an immobilized leg for an extended period of time. Psychotropic medications are like that: sometimes a part of the brain is “broken”, so a “brace” is put on it. As a short term treatment, psychiatric medications can really be a life saver, but long term these medications have deleterious effects. Just as it is not good to keep the brace on a broken leg after the bone has been healed, it is not good to be on medications long term. (I will address the long term exceptions momentarily.) Unfortunately, that is not the goal of psychiatry. Psychiatry seeks to remedy symptoms rather than cure the problem. The body is designed to adapt to psychotropic medications after a period of time, and the benefits soon wear off. On average, this takes about two years. The individual taking a psychotropic medicine wonders why his or her medication is no longer working like it used to, and it becomes this endless quest to find the right concoction so that he or she can feel normal, functional, and--the big one--happy. Psychiatrists adjust the dosage of this medication, prescribe a new medication, wean the client off this other medication... There never will be a perfect remedy because our bodies are too complex for that, and one can become so easily enslaved by this quest to feel "normal and happy".

Now of course, there are individuals who have some form of permanent brokenness, such as schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. These are conditions where long-term medications are absolutely necessary. I have seen these conditions ravage a person's life when they are not taking their medication, and I am grateful for the people who discovered these medications to help people who would otherwise be in very bad shape. I witnessed this both in my work and with people in my personal life.

A note about bipolar disorder: it is extremely overdiagnosed. When I talk about someone with bipolar disorder needing long-term medication, I mean someone who genuinely has manic/psychotic episodes alternating with depressive episodes. I do not mean someone who cannot regulate their emotions and thus claims to be "bipolar". Mood swings are not bipolar disorder. Feeling excessively happy one day and melancholy the next day does not constitute a manic-depressive episode. This is something I very passionately educate people about because it normalizes mental conditions that are, in reality, rather rare. That leads into my next point:

3) Psychiatry encourages individuals to make weakness/illness a crucial part of one's identity. I will admit this is not an issue unique to psychiatry because counselors, psychologists, and even clinical social workers can write diagnoses; but psychiatry is more heavily reliant upon diagnoses due to insurance, billing, and writing of prescriptions. In a culture that prizes weakness over strength, receiving a label, a diagnosis, has become an award. People these days receive diagnoses that they should not receive. Bipolar disorder, as I mentioned above, is one prominent example of this. At least 50% of my clients had been diagnosed with bipolar disorder at some point in their lives, and I firmly believed that almost none of them actually fit that diagnosis. Almost all of my clients received their bipolar diagnoses from psychiatrists. Then we have personality disorders, which have replaced the language of sin nature. People throw around the term "OCD" as if it is a normal feature in a large segment of the population. How many times have you heard a friend or family member say, "That's just my OCD" or "I'm so OCD about ____". Anyone who has done their due diligence in reading about OCD would not want to claim that condition as a part of their person, but because "weakness is strength" in our society, many jump onto this bandwagon of adopting heavy diagnoses.

4) Psychiatry plays an active role in society's problem with instant gratification. There are a lot of things contributing to this issue, such as social media, same-day Amazon shipping, and text messaging, but psychiatry actively perpetuates this problem in our society because it deals directly with people's brains and cognitive function. I tried, without much success, to educate my clients (many of whom struggled with substance addiction) about how taking medications for the mental health issues long-term keeps the door to their addiction open. What is the difference between taking meth to feel better versus taking Paxil to feel better? One obviously has more severe effects, but the mentality was exactly the same: "give me a substance to feel better". Is that how most people, addict or not, approach taking psychotropic medications? Is the chant of our society, "Please, Zoloft, make me feel happy?" In a culture where people want maximum reward for minimal work, I think, sadly, this is the case.

----
I could write a novel about this subject, but I tried to be succinct in discussing a topic that is very broad. In doing so, I hope I communicated my thoughts clearly. I know there are good--and even Christian--psychiatrists out there, but that does not remove the general issues with the field of psychiatry itself.

 

[py3ak]

Here are some of my thoughts on psychiatry. I think there are many issues with this field, and maybe my experience in the counseling realm has tainted my perspective, but I do try to be objective. I will try to organize my thoughts in a clear manner because I do have a lot to say about this subject.

1) Psychiatry has a faulty foundation. Though there are exceptions, most psychiatrists make a long term assessment of a person’s well-being and state of mind from a short window of interaction and information gathering, and their primary function is to prescribe medication. Many people are not aware that psychiatrists go to medical school with a focus on mental health; they do not go to a doctorate/graduate program for counseling like psychologists and mental health therapists/counselors do. Psychiatry is therefore based on a different framework than counseling. It is a framework that I find to be reductionistic and views humans as mechanical/animalistic. I do not think psychiatrists are unwilling to look at the whole picture due to hubris (though I know there are psychiatrists out there with major hubris) but rather are unable to look at the whole picture because they have bought into a philosophy that reduces humans to machines and chemical reactions.

2) Psychiatry proposes one finds healing in the wrong places. Now, it is important at this point that I state I do not think all psychiatric practice is bad. I strongly advocate for the use of psychotropic medications in cases where a person truly needs a “booster” to get back on track (e.g. a person whose depression has gotten so severe they cannot get out of bed or take care of themselves). I view such medications as having the same function as braces do for fractured bones. When you have a broken leg, you get a brace to immobilize the whole leg so the bone that was broken can heal even though there are parts of your leg that were not broken. Eventually, that brace is taken off, and while the bone that was broken is healed, you have a lot of work to do to regain the strength you lost from having an immobilized leg for an extended period of time. Psychotropic medications are like that: sometimes a part of the brain is “broken”, so a “brace” is put on it. As a short term treatment, psychiatric medications can really be a life saver, but long term these medications have deleterious effects. Just as it is not good to keep the brace on a broken leg after the bone has been healed, it is not good to be on medications long term. (I will address the long term exceptions momentarily.) Unfortunately, that is not the goal of psychiatry. Psychiatry seeks to remedy symptoms rather than cure the problem. The body is designed to adapt to psychotropic medications after a period of time, and the benefits soon wear off. On average, this takes about two years. The individual taking a psychotropic medicine wonders why his or her medication is no longer working like it used to, and it becomes this endless quest to find the right concoction so that he or she can feel normal, functional, and--the big one--happy. Psychiatrists adjust the dosage of this medication, prescribe a new medication, wean the client off this other medication... There never will be a perfect remedy because our bodies are too complex for that, and one can become so easily enslaved by this quest to feel "normal and happy".

Now of course, there are individuals who have some form of permanent brokenness, such as schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. These are conditions where long-term medications are absolutely necessary. I have seen these conditions ravage a person's life when they are not taking their medication, and I am grateful for the people who discovered these medications to help people who would otherwise be in very bad shape. I witnessed this both in my work and with people in my personal life.

A note about bipolar disorder: it is extremely overdiagnosed. When I talk about someone with bipolar disorder needing long-term medication, I mean someone who genuinely has manic/psychotic episodes alternating with depressive episodes. I do not mean someone who cannot regulate their emotions and thus claims to be "bipolar". Mood swings are not bipolar disorder. Feeling excessively happy one day and melancholy the next day does not constitute a manic-depressive episode. This is something I very passionately educate people about because it normalizes mental conditions that are, in reality, rather rare. That leads into my next point:

3) Psychiatry encourages individuals to make weakness/illness a crucial part of one's identity. I will admit this is not an issue unique to psychiatry because counselors, psychologists, and even clinical social workers can write diagnoses; but psychiatry is more heavily reliant upon diagnoses due to insurance, billing, and writing of prescriptions. In a culture that prizes weakness over strength, receiving a label, a diagnosis, has become an award. People these days receive diagnoses that they should not receive. Bipolar disorder, as I mentioned above, is one prominent example of this. At least 50% of my clients had been diagnosed with bipolar disorder at some point in their lives, and I firmly believed that almost none of them actually fit that diagnosis. Almost all of my clients received their bipolar diagnoses from psychiatrists. Then we have personality disorders, which have replaced the language of sin nature. People throw around the term "OCD" as if it is a normal feature in a large segment of the population. How many times have you heard a friend or family member say, "That's just my OCD" or "I'm so OCD about ____". Anyone who has done their due diligence in reading about OCD would not want to claim that condition as a part of their person, but because "weakness is strength" in our society, many jump onto this bandwagon of adopting heavy diagnoses.

4) Psychiatry plays an active role in society's problem with instant gratification. There are a lot of things contributing to this issue, such as social media, same-day Amazon shipping, and text messaging, but psychiatry actively perpetuates this problem in our society because it deals directly with people's brains and cognitive function. I tried, without much success, to educate my clients (many of whom struggled with substance addiction) about how taking medications for the mental health issues long-term keeps the door to their addiction open. What is the difference between taking meth to feel better versus taking Paxil to feel better? One obviously has more severe effects, but the mentality was exactly the same: "give me a substance to feel better". Is that how most people, addict or not, approach taking psychotropic medications? Is the chant of our society, "Please, Zoloft, make me feel happy?" In a culture where people want maximum reward for minimal work, I think, sadly, this is the case.

----
I could write a novel about this subject, but I tried to be succinct in discussing a topic that is very broad. In doing so, I hope I communicated my thoughts clearly. I know there are good--and even Christian--psychiatrists out there, but that does not remove the general issues with the field of psychiatry itself.

Thank you, Monica, that was also good to read.

 

[No Other Name]

I could write a novel about this subject, but I tried to be succinct in discussing a topic

Please don't limit yourself on our accounts.

 

[Ploutos]

@Taahanni thank for your well thought out postings. I would be curious to hear your thoughts on demon possession and whether you think that ever plays a role in severe mental health issues.

 

[arapahoepark]

I could write a novel about this subject....

Please don't limit yourself on our accounts.

After all there are a few publishers on here...

 

[Taahanni]

After all there are a few publishers on here...

I suppose I have never seriously considered writing a book on the topic.. I appreciate the encouragement to do so!

 

[Taahanni]

@Taahanni thank for your well thought out postings. I would be curious to hear your thoughts on demon possession and whether you think that ever plays a role in severe mental health issues.

First, let me state that what many think of "demon possession" is in reality "demon oppression". True Christians can never be possessed by a demon because the Holy Spirit possesses their hearts, but in God's providence He does allow at certain times for His children to be oppressed as a form of testing and purification. This can look like a period of particularly troubling temptation(s). Demon possession occurs by an individual willingly opening up themselves to demonic influences and practices. Moreover, demon possession was at its pinnacle during Christ's time on Earth because this was when spiritual tension was highest; therefore, I do not think we have nearly the same degree of demon possession in the present as there was in the time of the New Testament.

Onto your question, I do actually believe that demon possession can play a role in severe mental health issues, but this is very rare. I know a few Christians (who genuinely seem like God-fearing individuals) who struggle with severe mental health issues, and as I mentioned above, true Christians cannot be demon possessed. Even when I worked with clients who were unbelievers dealing with serious mental health issues, I did not ever think they were demon possessed. There was only one client I encountered in my six years of practice who strongly gave me the impression of demonic influence. I will share about that experience and two other cases of people I know personally who demonstrated severe psychological issues as a result of demonic influence in the upcoming paragraph. I realize this is purely anecdotal, but these experiences really did shape my thinking about the possibility of demon possession in today's age.

Case 1: A client about my age (early 20s at the time) I worked with in 2015-2016 struggled with severe opioid addiction. She had a horrible history of childhood trauma, and she suffered from traumatic brain injury from a car wreck when she was a teenager. The traumatic brain injury resulted in memory problems and recurring seizures, which would exacerbate her memory issues immediately following the seizure. This was not the only client with whom I ever worked who had seizures, but her seizures were markedly different. She had what you call "psychomotor seizures". I vividly remember one night in the unit when she was having one of these seizures, and saying her behavior was bizarre is an understatement. It was downright unsettling and disturbing. She had this disturbed look in her eyes, and she was moving in a strange fashion: turning her head side to side, mouthing--but not speaking--horrible obscenities, and moving her arms around like they were in slow-motion. Her regular behaviors outside the seizures were indicative of something deeper too. For someone who was a rather charming individual, she was clearly disturbed but made light of her issues. She was always finding innuendo in everything, and she was a talented artist who only ever drew very disturbing, grotesque content. One might say this was a result of her childhood trauma, but she stood out even amidst all the other clients with whom I worked who had the same type of trauma.

Case 2: A girl I knew in college gave me the impression of having been demon possessed because she always seemed very disturbed. I remember talking with her, and she said there was a period in her life shortly before college where she engaged in all sorts of witchcraft. After we both graduated, I learned that she was in and out of institutions due to severe mental health issues and having suicidal ideations on a regular basis. I believe that she opened herself up to demonic influences and never truly healed from it. Her parents sent her to a Christian college thinking that being around Christian influences would save her, but this girl primarily associated with unbelievers. I do not know what state of well-being this girl is in now.

Case 3: A woman I know now was very involved in the occult before coming to Christ. (I did not know her before she was a believer.) She was getting into dark practices (such as fortune telling) and sinking deeper and deeper into the demonic realm. Her breaking point occurred a few years into her occultic practices. She began to hear a voice telling her to do things, and she was listening to the voice. This voice was becoming progressively demanding and then turned evil. After having an unnerving hallucination while looking at herself in a mirror, she was admitted to a psychiatric unit. She had a complete psychotic break, and she describes herself as being completely out of her mind in that time of her life. This woman states that she believes this was demonic presence, and I agree with her. What a glorious thing that God saved her from a life that was going to end in eternal destruction.

Again, I know this is all primarily anecdotal, but it is something I continue to think about. It seems to me that God gives us the ability to discern when someone is possessed versus mentally unwell. In the first two cases I discussed, there was a certain disturbing look in the eyes of those individuals. Is that the case with all individuals who are demon possessed? I am not sure. It is something I am continuing to look into.

 

[John Bunion's Big Toe]

I wish more people would listen to what Jay Adams had to say on this issue. His books were extremely well thought out and pastoral.

 

[John Bunion's Big Toe]

Case 1: A client about my age (early 20s at the time) I worked with in 2015-2016 struggled with severe opioid addiction. She had a horrible history of childhood trauma, and she suffered from traumatic brain injury from a car wreck when she was a teenager. The traumatic brain injury resulted in memory problems and recurring seizures, which would exacerbate her memory issues immediately following the seizure. This was not the only client with whom I ever worked who had seizures, but her seizures were markedly different. She had what you call "psychomotor seizures". I vividly remember one night in the unit when she was having one of these seizures, and saying her behavior was bizarre is an understatement. It was downright unsettling and disturbing. She had this disturbed look in her eyes, and she was moving in a strange fashion: turning her head side to side, mouthing--but not speaking--horrible obscenities, and moving her arms around like they were in slow-motion. Her regular behaviors outside the seizures were indicative of something deeper too. For someone who was a rather charming individual, she was clearly disturbed but made light of her issues. She was always finding innuendo in everything, and she was a talented artist who only ever drew very disturbing, grotesque content. One might say this was a result of her childhood trauma, but she stood out even amidst all the other clients with whom I worked who had the same type of trauma.

It would appear that you're talking about psychogenic non-epileptic seizures. Is this correct? These are not true seizures, but rather mimic true seizures- which would explain why they looked different.

 

[Taahanni]

It would appear that you're talking about psychogenic non-epileptic seizures. Is this correct? These are not true seizures, but rather mimic true seizures- which would explain why they looked different.

I suppose they would have been psychogenic non-epileptic seizures since she was not born with epilepsy. Do such seizures always look unsettling?

I wish more people would listen to what Jay Adams had to say on this issue. His books were extremely well thought out and pastoral.

I have his book The Christian Counselor’s Manual. I have only read portions of it, and I did like what I have read, especially when he discusses responsibility for one’s sin starting in childhood regardless of upbringing. I hope someday to read it in its entirety.

 

[John Bunion's Big Toe]

I suppose they would have been psychogenic non-epileptic seizures since she was not born with epilepsy. Do such seizures always look unsettling?

I have only seen a PNES once and it was in a 3 or 4 year old. It looked like a normal seizure. I know Dr. Selim Benbadis is the world expert on them. If you have access to databases you can probably get your hands on his work. I have not been able to myself because I don't have any access to an academic database. He's not a believer, but he's an epileptologist, so I trust he knows his stuff as far as PNES goes. How he treats it is unknown to me, so I can't say what I think of his treatment approach. You may already know that neurologists and psychiatrists have same licensing board.

I have his book The Christian Counselor’s Manual. I have only read portions of it, and I did like what I have read, especially when he discusses responsibility for one’s sin starting in childhood regardless of upbringing. I hope someday to read it in its entirety.

Jay Adams tends to get a bad rap from people who don't read the footnotes in his books. Be sure to read all the footnotes when you eventually get to read them all.

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

First, let me state that what many think of "demon possession" is in reality "demon oppression". True Christians can never be possessed by a demon because the Holy Spirit possesses their hearts, but in God's providence He does allow at certain times for His children to be oppressed as a form of testing and purification. This can look like a period of particularly troubling temptation(s). Demon possession occurs by an individual willingly opening up themselves to demonic influences and practices. Moreover, demon possession was at its pinnacle during Christ's time on Earth because this was when spiritual tension was highest; therefore, I do not think we have nearly the same degree of demon possession in the present as there was in the time of the New Testament.

Onto your question, I do actually believe that demon possession can play a role in severe mental health issues, but this is very rare. I know a few Christians (who genuinely seem like God-fearing individuals) who struggle with severe mental health issues, and as I mentioned above, true Christians cannot be demon possessed. Even when I worked with clients who were unbelievers dealing with serious mental health issues, I did not ever think they were demon possessed. There was only one client I encountered in my six years of practice who strongly gave me the impression of demonic influence. I will share about that experience and two other cases of people I know personally who demonstrated severe psychological issues as a result of demonic influence in the upcoming paragraph. I realize this is purely anecdotal, but these experiences really did shape my thinking about the possibility of demon possession in today's age.

Case 1: A client about my age (early 20s at the time) I worked with in 2015-2016 struggled with severe opioid addiction. She had a horrible history of childhood trauma, and she suffered from traumatic brain injury from a car wreck when she was a teenager. The traumatic brain injury resulted in memory problems and recurring seizures, which would exacerbate her memory issues immediately following the seizure. This was not the only client with whom I ever worked who had seizures, but her seizures were markedly different. She had what you call "psychomotor seizures". I vividly remember one night in the unit when she was having one of these seizures, and saying her behavior was bizarre is an understatement. It was downright unsettling and disturbing. She had this disturbed look in her eyes, and she was moving in a strange fashion: turning her head side to side, mouthing--but not speaking--horrible obscenities, and moving her arms around like they were in slow-motion. Her regular behaviors outside the seizures were indicative of something deeper too. For someone who was a rather charming individual, she was clearly disturbed but made light of her issues. She was always finding innuendo in everything, and she was a talented artist who only ever drew very disturbing, grotesque content. One might say this was a result of her childhood trauma, but she stood out even amidst all the other clients with whom I worked who had the same type of trauma.

Case 2: A girl I knew in college gave me the impression of having been demon possessed because she always seemed very disturbed. I remember talking with her, and she said there was a period in her life shortly before college where she engaged in all sorts of witchcraft. After we both graduated, I learned that she was in and out of institutions due to severe mental health issues and having suicidal ideations on a regular basis. I believe that she opened herself up to demonic influences and never truly healed from it. Her parents sent her to a Christian college thinking that being around Christian influences would save her, but this girl primarily associated with unbelievers. I do not know what state of well-being this girl is in now.

Case 3: A woman I know now was very involved in the occult before coming to Christ. (I did not know her before she was a believer.) She was getting into dark practices (such as fortune telling) and sinking deeper and deeper into the demonic realm. Her breaking point occurred a few years into her occultic practices. She began to hear a voice telling her to do things, and she was listening to the voice. This voice was becoming progressively demanding and then turned evil. After having an unnerving hallucination while looking at herself in a mirror, she was admitted to a psychiatric unit. She had a complete psychotic break, and she describes herself as being completely out of her mind in that time of her life. This woman states that she believes this was demonic presence, and I agree with her. What a glorious thing that God saved her from a life that was going to end in eternal destruction.

Again, I know this is all primarily anecdotal, but it is something I continue to think about. It seems to me that God gives us the ability to discern when someone is possessed versus mentally unwell. In the first two cases I discussed, there was a certain disturbing look in the eyes of those individuals. Is that the case with all individuals who are demon possessed? I am not sure. It is something I am continuing to look into.

Thanks for your insight. I always thought that demonic possession would come along with supernatural manifestations as well. Like the person speaking a language they do not know, or being able to move in a way that is beyond normal human capability, or having knowledge that they would not ordinarily have. Would you agree with this, or would you think demonic possession can manifest in normal ways? If so, wouldn't it then become very difficult to discern what is mental and what is spiritual? Thanks!

 

[RamistThomist]

Thanks for your insight. I always thought that demonic possession would come along with supernatural manifestations as well. Like the person speaking a language they do not know, or being able to move in a way that is beyond normal human capability, or having knowledge that they would not ordinarily have. Would you agree with this, or would you think demonic possession can manifest in normal ways? If so, wouldn't it then become very difficult to discern what is mental and what is spiritual? Thanks!

Also, possession is an English attempt at daimonidzomai, which really doesn't help. Our understanding of "demon possession" comes more from Roman Catholicism and Emily Rose than anything else. Demons are like rats, feeding on garbage. Get rid of the garbage and the rats should leave. Unless, of course, things like ritual and Masons and other issues are involved.

So no, I don't believe Christians can be "possessed" in their spirits, but that's no really what the word possession means, anyway.

 

[Taahanni]

Thanks for your insight. I always thought that demonic possession would come along with supernatural manifestations as well. Like the person speaking a language they do not know, or being able to move in a way that is beyond normal human capability, or having knowledge that they would not ordinarily have. Would you agree with this, or would you think demonic possession can manifest in normal ways? If so, wouldn't it then become very difficult to discern what is mental and what is spiritual? Thanks!

I tend to think that demon possession would come with supernatural ability as well. I agree that it would be hard to discern what is spiritual versus mental without that factor. In the three cases I shared, I think the least likely to have been indicative of demon possession would be case 1. That client could have just been very disturbed, and I do not know if she ever engaged in the type of occultic practices that the individuals in cases 2 and 3 did. In cases 2 and 3, I am much more convinced of demonic influence because both ladies have shared with me the use of supernatural abilities. The girl in case 2 told me she would engage in a practice called “dream walking” where she would enter into the dreams of other people and influence the dream. When I knew her, she said she didn’t do things like that anymore, but she still seemed very disturbed, and she engaged in a lot of self harm which always indicates to me a dark influence, since Satan’s goal is to destroy the image of God. (I do not think self harm is demon possession. I think it is more so demon oppression.) The woman in case 3 shared that she was also gaining supernatural abilities such as “spiritual energy healings”, and she said she could even heal people who were meeting with her remotely. She shared that tools used in the occult (crystal pendulums, ouija boards, etc) are real and do invite the presence of demons because she saw it firsthand.

 

[Zach1689]

I think mental illness is real and it has become something that our society is overly-fixated on, and which churches use to dismiss a lot of sin. Many Christians have become far too quick to medicalize things that are really spiritual issues, to our detriment. Most issues do not need to be referred to a medical professional or a secular therapist, but can and should be handled through skilled counsel by a pastor or someone else who knows the Word of God. In rare cases, there may be something wrong chemically that is worth referring to a medical professional.

Hey Andrew,

It's been awhile since being on this forum, so when I searched it and saw the top suggestion being the question that the original poster asked, I was quite intrigued.

To the original poster, I couldn't agree more with Andrew here, though we may have differing personal opinions on when medical attention should be sought, it is all too common for individuals with circumstantial issues (normal life occurrences; death, job-loss, broken relationships) causing mental strain to immediately seek after medical attention when in reality these issues should first be cared for through the Church (Romans 12:15), and then, and only if needed, should medical attention be sought after.

As someone who struggles with mental illness and knows those around me who do, it is very real, especially when it's not circumstantial (based on normal life occurrences). Being of the reformed faith, I struggled with this subject. I came to the conclusion that God, in His grace, has placed His children who struggle with this, in this span of time for a reason. That reason being modern medicinal practices are available to us, and it is because of His grace we have access to them.

To any of His children struggling, God did not make you wrong, you are made in His image (Genesis 1:27). His grace upon us is immeasurable. Pray, seek Church council, and ask yourself if medical attention should be sought after. If so, do not feel guilty, remember God's grace.

I must make another point in expounding on something very important Andrew said; mental illness is NO excuse for sin.

One last thing, mental illness is over-diagnosed yet undertreated, it is quite the anomaly. Ask yourself why.

God Bless.

 

[Ploutos]

Also, possession is an English attempt at daimonidzomai, which really doesn't help. Our understanding of "demon possession" comes more from Roman Catholicism and Emily Rose than anything else. Demons are like rats, feeding on garbage. Get rid of the garbage and the rats should leave. Unless, of course, things like ritual and Masons and other issues are involved.

So no, I don't believe Christians can be "possessed" in their spirits, but that's no really what the word possession means, anyway.

Can you elaborate on this?

 

[RamistThomist]

Can you elaborate on this?

The Greek is literally "he has a demon," which may include (and sometimes does) Emily Rose-type situations, but not necessarily. Indeed, one can say that a demon can attach to one's flesh, including neural pathways (which might explain why cornography is hard to kick). This might be akin to giving the Devil a "topos," ala Ephesians. None of this requires something like head-spinning or speaking in a foreign language (which I believe can occur). Nonetheless, the person "has a demon."

I get why people make the distinction between "possession" and "oppression." It's catchy but it doesn't really capture what the Bible says. In fact, if what I am saying is true, and I think the Greek bears it out, that distinction isn't even needed.

That being said, find the story of the 19th century Lutheran pastor who had to deal with all of this.