Is Mental Illness Real?

Charles Johnson said:
You're kidding, right? They just got out of a bloody civil war with at least 70,000 deaths.
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No just ignorant, lol. I stand corrected on that point.

Charles Johnson said:
I'm not sure what the point of this is.
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I meant to put suicide rate isn't the only factor we should be looking at but I left that out. I suspect sexual abuse is a very high factor also in suicide but that's another topic.

I just think you are unfairly lumping all mental issues together like MacArthur is doing instead of carefully parsing legitimate and illegitimate issues.

I have had a whole other level of appreciate for mental issues after suffering repeated panic attacks a few years ago that mimic heart attack symptoms. According to folks like you and MacArthur, that was all my fault and I should have just prayed my way out of it (which of course I tried....).

I don't think you have enough respect for the frailty of the human body and mind and how it can be adversely affected under extreme stress.

And then we could get into the whole connection between fetal alcohol and drugs on unborn infants and how that affects the mind long term. Are kids at fault for that too?

You're a smart guy Charles, I think you need to think through this more carefully.
 
TheInquirer said:
No just ignorant, lol. I stand corrected on that point.



I meant to put suicide rate isn't the only factor we should be looking at but I left that out. I suspect sexual abuse is a very high factor also in suicide but that's another topic.

I just think you are unfairly lumping all mental issues together like MacArthur is doing instead of carefully parsing legitimate and illegitimate issues.

I have had a whole other level of appreciate for mental issues after suffering repeated panic attacks a few years ago that mimic heart attack symptoms. According to folks like you and MacArthur, that was all my fault and I should have just prayed my way out of it (which of course I tried....).

I don't think you have enough respect for the frailty of the human body and mind and how it can be adversely affected under extreme stress.

And then we could get into the whole connection between fetal alcohol and drugs on unborn infants and how that affects the mind long term. Are kids at fault for that too?

You're a smart guy Charles, I think you need to think through this more carefully.
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I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not claiming mental problems never have physiological causes. I'm sure that is the case a significant portion of the time.

What I doubt is that when the causes are spiritual, behavioral, ideological, or religious, which could very well be the case for more than 50% of the people that walk through the doors of a mental health clinic, that is being correctly diagnosed and handled, and I doubt, furthermore, that when the causes are physiological, psychiatry is able to effectively treat them in a majority of cases (per the studies above on the ineffectiveness of medication for ADHD and major depression).

Now, again, I don't doubt that it is helpful for some people some of the time, or that mental health issues can have physiological causes not directly resulting from sin. If it has helped you, I believe you, and I think it's great you had a positive experience.
 
Charles Johnson said:
I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not claiming mental problems never have physiological causes. I'm sure that is the case a significant portion of the time.

What I doubt is that when the causes are spiritual, behavioral, ideological, or religious, which could very well be the case for more than 50% of the people that walk through the doors of a mental health clinic, that is being correctly diagnosed and handled, and I doubt, furthermore, that when the causes are physiological, psychiatry is able to effectively treat them in a majority of cases (per the studies above on the ineffectiveness of medication for ADHD and major depression).

Now, again, I don't doubt that it is helpful for some people some of the time, or that mental health issues can have physiological causes not directly resulting from sin. If it has helped you, I believe you, and I think it's great you had a positive experience.
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Hopefully this isnt derailing the thread too far. But what did you think of the Russel Crow movie "The Popes Exorcist"? If there is one thing that intrigues me about Rome, it is this practice, as it seems Protestantism has completely passed over the possibility of such a reality. I know you are well versed in Latin, have you come across any texts that peak your interest or give viability to such possessions; or, the need for experts in the realm of exorcism within the Protestant faith?

Just came across this while the thought arose - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puritan_exorcism
 
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davejonescue said:
Hopefully this isnt derailing the thread too far. But what did you think of the Russel Crow movie "The Popes Exorcist"? If there is one thing that intrigues me about Rome, it is this practice, as it seems Protestantism has completely passed over the possibility of such a reality. I know you are well versed in Latin, have you come across any texts that peak your interest or give viability to such possessions; or, the need for experts in the realm of exorcism within the Protestant faith?
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I'm very against the Roman Catholic practice of exorcism. I think it's a ploy to convince the unsuspecting of the power of Roman superstitions (crucifixes, relics, idols, crossing oneself, priests, holy water, etc). A demon afflicts someone only to pretend to flee before the idols and the idol is worshipped as having great power. Who wins? Satan, of course.
The true solution is the one Christ presented, which is fasting and prayer to God. I know missionaries who have applied that effectively to the most extreme cases of possession. Think cases resembling the demoniac of Mark 5.
 
Charles Johnson said:
I'm very against the Roman Catholic practice of exorcism. I think it's a ploy to convince the unsuspecting of the power of Roman superstitions (crucifixes, relics, idols, crossing oneself, priests, holy water, etc). A demon afflicts someone only to pretend to flee before the idols and the idol is worshipped as having great power. Who wins? Satan, of course.
The true solution is the one Christ presented, which is fasting and prayer to God. I know missionaries who have applied that effectively to the most extreme cases of possession. Think cases resembling the demoniac of Mark 5.
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Gotcha, I was only asking because of the same type of scenario where Jesus is accused of exorcising by the power of Beelzebub, but then goes into his "house divided" response.

Also, I wont bug you about it, as it looks like it has been dealt with previously on the Board several times, like here: https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/reformed-views-of-exorcisms.69951/
 
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davejonescue said:
Gotcha, I was only asking because of the same type of scenario where Jesus is accused of exorcising by the power of Beelzebub, but then goes into his "house divided" response.
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Indeed.
But there are a few reasons why the Roman Catholic exorcist can't rely on the same argument Christ used.
One is that their idolatrous methods are contrary to Scripture. But Moses tells us when one works a wonder then seduces to idols he is not to be believed (Deut. 13:1-5). Whereas Christ's teaching was consistent with known Scripture.
Other is that Roman Catholic exorcisms, by their own admission, differ greatly from Christ's in effectiveness and have all the typical marks of Roman Catholic false miracles and "lying wonders" as it were. They admit to repeating exorcisms dozens of times with some subjects and in individual exorcisms repeating the same phrases and rites dozens of times. Whereas Christ spoke just a word. So it's not actually clear the priests are driving out demons at all. And so Satan's house is hardly divided and in danger of collapsing. They may just be giving the appearance of driving out demons.
 
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Charles Johnson said:
Indeed.
But there are a few reasons why the Roman Catholic exorcist can't rely on the same argument Christ used.
One is that their idolatrous methods are contrary to Scripture. But Moses tells us when one works a wonder then seduces to idols he is not to be believed (Deut. 13:1-5). Whereas Christ's teaching was consistent with known Scripture.
Other is that Roman Catholic exorcisms, by their own omission, differ greatly from Christ's in effectiveness and have all the typical marks of Roman Catholic false miracles and "lying wonders" as it were. They admit to repeated exorcisms dozens of times with some subjects and in individual exorcisms repeating the same phrases and rites dozens of times. Whereas Christ spoke just a word. So it's not actually clear the priests are driving out demons at all. And so Satan's house is hardly divided and in danger of collapsing. They may just be giving the appearance of driving out demons.
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Very true. Jesus didnt need to "try again." And you are also right, the Magicians were able to mimic Moses up unto the point they couldnt do what only God can do.
 
I've long wondered if the Biblical Counseling types actually believe the human body exists. Dru Johnson explains how things like PTSD can get encoded in our flesh and simply carping at someone to "don't sin!" entirely misses the point.
tentsofshem.wordpress.com

Human Rites: The Power of Rituals, Habits, and Sacraments

Johnson, Dru. Human Rites: The Power of Rituals, Habits, and Sacraments. Thesis: Rituals symbolically encode our deepest thoughts and desires into a storyline. Definition: A ritual or r…
tentsofshem.wordpress.com tentsofshem.wordpress.com
 
I’ve been thinking about our mental health culture a lot lately and what it means exactly to have a specific mental health diagnosis. I honestly believe labeling mental health illnesses (which I believe exist and often have physical components) is part of the issue. Humans are very complicated. If two people are struggling with generally negative self esteem, lack of sleep, suicidal thoughts, etc., they could be doing so for completely different reasons. One could have a purely physical cause, another may be a direct result of sinful choices, and more likely still it is some combination of physical, social, and spiritual causes. Labelling them both as “depressed” so that insurance companies can pay for standardized treatment certainly fits in with our pragmatic materialist society, but is not really addressing the needs of each case. It’s a faulty assumption that two people fitting under a certain constellation of symptoms (who may not even share any of the same symptoms with each other) have the “same illness” that can be corrected with the appropriate mix of medications and therapies that have worked for others under the same label.

Some push back against this mechanical view is needed while maintaining that we are souls with bodies, and material things affect us very much.
 
I will just say we have got the balance way off in this country when everyone apparently has ADHD, but being "transgender" is completely fine and not at all mental illness. There is such thing as mental illness, but I wouldn't trust the people at this point who diagnosis it or the solutions they propose. Biblical counseling is a good thing and it should be used more than it is.
 
retroGRAD3 said:
but I wouldn't trust the people at this point who diagnosis it or the solutions they propose. Biblical counseling is a good thing and it should be used more than it is.
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How then would you address someone who has chemical imbalances? And assuming they have them (and I am not sure some biblical counselors would even concede that), how would you remedy them?
 
RamistThomist said:
How then would you address someone who has chemical imbalances? And assuming they have them (and I am not sure some biblical counselors would even concede that), how would you remedy them?
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Chemical imbalances need medicine in my opinion to get them right. I have people in my family that have greatly benefits from these.
 
RamistThomist said:
JMac missed on that one big time. Does seratonin exist?
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Serotonin is of course a real neurotransmitter but it has lost its place as the dominant or driving force in clinical depression. From a purely physical standpoint it is now acknowledged that many neurotransmitters interact in a complex fashion to produce various emotional states. The old model of “serotonin deficiency” has been debunked. But it has certainly produced billions in profit for those who pushed it.
 
retroGRAD3 said:
Chemical imbalances need medicine in my opinion to get them right. I have people in my family that have greatly benefits from these.
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But those experts would have to make a judgment about mental health, and in order to get the Rx, we would have to trust their judgment.

Susan777 said:
Serotonin is of course a real neurotransmitter but it has lost its place as the dominant or driving force in clinical depression. From a purely physical standpoint it is now acknowledged that many neurotransmitters interact in a complex fashion to produce various emotional states. The old model of “serotonin deficiency” has been debunked. But it has certainly produced billions in profit for those who pushed it.
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That's fair. My point was that you couldn't reduce it to "you're just a sinner and that's why you are sad."
 
I am a family nurse practitioner and I treat mental illness every day. Depression, anxiety, bipolar, schizophrenia, etc. There is not a lot of great mental health care in the US so most of the care falls on primary care providers like me. Are there many people who would benefit from pastoral counseling? Absolutely. Are there many people who benefit from the pharmacological treatment I provide? Absolutely. Mental health pathology is caused by physical factors in the brain. It is not special in that it involves both personal and biological factors. For example, many patients with diabetes would strongly benefit from pastoral counseling on making wise decisions (regarding diet, etc.). Any medical issue would benefit from Biblical guidance. Mental health is no different. But it is very much a real thing that requires treatment.
 
RamistThomist said:
But those experts would have to make a judgment about mental health, and in order to get the Rx, we would have to trust their judgment.
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The point I was trying to make is that there needs to be a fair bit of skepticism involved. Choose your doctor's wisely. As mention, there are now doctor's that tell you removing your body parts is a good idea.
 
retroGRAD3 said:
As mention, there are now doctor's that tell you removing your body parts is a good idea.
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That's true, but since no one on the board is probably considering that, we can leave that aside. I agree skepticism is healthy, but your initial comment was:
retroGRAD3 said:
There is such thing as mental illness, but I wouldn't trust the people at this point who diagnosis it or the solutions they propose.
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And I do agree that good ole fashioned counseling can help. For example, to take an extreme case, if someone gets rid of their p0rn habit, starts lifting weights, eating right (i.e., not the American diet), and getting up at the same time, that person will be much happier.
 
retroGRAD3 said:
The point I was trying to make is that there needs to be a fair bit of skepticism involved. Choose your doctor's wisely. As mention, there are now doctor's that tell you removing your body parts is a good idea.
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There should be discernment in all we do. After all, we live in an age where there are now whole denominations that tell gays they should get married instead of repent.
 
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I think the Amen Clinic Method, when used with discernment, is a helpful tool for looking at all aspects of ones life before starting a treatment plan. It is a secular approach. I believe it should include Reformed spirituality and a Reformed approach to meditating on the Bible. There is much spiritual and psychological benefit to meditating on the scriptures.

But as a general principle I think the Amen Clinic Method is a good starting point.

 
John The Baptist said:
Right. I was thinking keswick in the sense that you have this Spirit-empowered ability to overcome anything with the right mindset.

Similar roads to the same destination: disaster.
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I was listening to his old sermon hacking a gag to pieces and this was not the view I got out of it, has he changed his mind over the years? Genuinely asking as I don't really keep up with him all that much.
 
As for the original post, I think this is super complex stuff, with many factors involved. But in general, though I believe mental conditions to be scientifically legitimate, at the same time many people are not availing themselves of the spiritual/mental/wisdom/perspective help that could really help them overcome. And I say this as one with a testimony. Before being a Christian, I dealt very badly with OCD, anxiety, and fear. Much of this was because of my lifestyle, but much of it was because my mind was not trained and equipped to overcome. When I became a Christian, I was fully devoted to see my mind become renewed. And now I no longer deal with these problems.
 
shunoshimobe said:
I was listening to his old sermon hacking a gag to pieces and this was not the view I got out of it, has he changed his mind over the years? Genuinely asking as I don't really keep up with him all that much.
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Oh, I don’t know. I doubt that’s his official view on sanctification. I was simply commenting on how these particular comments about mental health have that flavor to them.
 
Do you think the issue could be a difference between mental illness and "mental health", i.e. bipolar vs. depression? I don't know too much, but it seems that issues that go a bit deeper, as in when someone has a serious problem such as schizophrenia, it could be demonic influence, but these things actually count as an illness as the person has little control over themselves during the episode. Whereas, for things like depression and insomnia, people have control but it is just very, very difficult. In the latter cases, the battle can almost always be won by prayer, communion, and the means of grace. In the former, it would require healing through prayer as one may pray for the healing of a broken arm, and then medical help for its repression.

Or, can we split it down even more? Is there a difference between episodes that seem outright demonic vs. those that are very sad but just a result of ageing, such as amnesia or Alzheimer's? Can we build a scale from people who just have outbursts who have no direct mental illness (i.e. people you see in videos who rage when there is a street preacher) to those who have 'diagnosed' illnesses such as BPD, to extreme ones like split-personality disorder?

It also says a lot that many mental issues come hand-in-hand. I am also interested by the hand-in-hand-ness of autism, ADHD, and OCD. It's for another post, maybe, but I have been thinking about how the negative side of those three disorders can be reduced by godly parents.
 
Charles Johnson said:
Indeed.
But there are a few reasons why the Roman Catholic exorcist can't rely on the same argument Christ used.
One is that their idolatrous methods are contrary to Scripture. But Moses tells us when one works a wonder then seduces to idols he is not to be believed (Deut. 13:1-5). Whereas Christ's teaching was consistent with known Scripture.
Other is that Roman Catholic exorcisms, by their own omission, differ greatly from Christ's in effectiveness and have all the typical marks of Roman Catholic false miracles and "lying wonders" as it were. They admit to repeating exorcisms dozens of times with some subjects and in individual exorcisms repeating the same phrases and rites dozens of times. Whereas Christ spoke just a word. So it's not actually clear the priests are driving out demons at all. And so Satan's house is hardly divided and in danger of collapsing. They may just be giving the appearance of driving out demons.
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Thank you, brother. This was immensely helpful to me in working with Roman Catholics who talk of exorcisms. I felt confused as on the one hand, I was glad they were not "rationalistic" and chalking demonic activity up to purely psychological defects with physiological results. But on the other, it was so hard for me to put my finger on how and where they are wrong Biblically outside of idolatry of relics which did result in a problem with "house divided" as Mr. Jonescue asked. Your posts here have been immensely helpful.
retroGRAD3 said:
It usually takes me at least two responses to get the correct level of nuance in my comments.
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I loved this because of your humility and self-awareness. Thank you for your posts - even if I don't see eye-to-eye, I am grateful for the thoughtful sharpening of my views.
 
I'm a Brazilian pastor. I recently discovered that I am Autistic. Simple things like shopping in a place I've never been to is very difficult for me because it's out of my usual routine. These things give me a lot of anxiety. I have read both about Autism and Biblical Counseling to help me with my limitations and difficulties. As someone who is living this, I can say upfront that the situation is much more complex than it appears to outsiders. For example, to what extent are certain behaviors I have because of autism or because of my sin? Discerning this is very difficult for both me and my wife who is directly affected by these issues.

I have benefited both from discoveries about autism and from looking at autism in light of Scripture.

Yes, mental illnesses exist and I will have to deal with them as long as I live because of my condition. But my identity is in Christ and not autism and one day there will be no more autism or any type of mental illness to afflict us.
 
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