Is Mental Illness Real?

[John Bunion's Big Toe]

Thank you Monica and many others who contributed to this subject in an edifying way. I plan on reading through the whole thing again when I get a chance.

Respectfully, MacArthur's remarks were ignorant.

Like in other areas, looking at adjacent conditions other than seemingly abstract conditions can shed light. Unless I missed it, demetial

Cancer, heart attacks, strokes, pulmonary embolism, and chicken pox are secular terms.

No, they aren't. They are definitions of physical ailments. In and of themselves they are only definitions.
"Mental illness" is an arbitrary term that conflates and confuses physical and spiritual issues. It did not exist before people decided they could try to treat the mind like it was a physical organ that could be medicated. The brain may be an organ, but it is the seat of the mind and not the mind itself. If the chair is broken you will fall out of the chair- so fix the chair. If you sit in the broken chair and become injured both you and the chair need to be fixed. If your arm is broken, but the chair is fine you do not need to fix the chair. If you take a saw to the chair, cut it in half, then try to sit in it and hurt yourself- you are the problem, but you must still fix the chair and yourself.

A physical illness that causes the brain to malfunction, and therefore affects the mind, is not "mental illness". It's physical illness.
A sinful response to someone else's sin is not "mental illness"- it's sin. If this sinful response involves illicit drug use it may require special intervention, but it's still sin- not "mental illness".

 

[ZackF]

"Mental illness" is an arbitrary term that conflates and confuses physical and spiritual issues.

It seems your post is making my point. Why is mental illness an arbitrary term? It is describing a reality (poor cognition, bad ideation/imagination, erratic behavior, seemingly irrational fear) that may have physical causes including the sinfulness of others.

 

[John Bunion's Big Toe]

It seems your post is making my point. Why is mental illness an arbitrary term? It is describing a reality (poor cognition, bad ideation/imagination, erratic behavior, seemingly irrational fear) that may have physical causes including the sinfulness of others.

The sinfulness of others is not a physical cause. You did not understand my post if you think I was making your point.

 

[Taahanni]

The strangest comment I saw, probably by far, was the one user who said something like "We didn't need to use the Bible to treat this person- praise God!"

It would appear you are referring to my comment about ART being a useful therapy for people with trauma and how one can go through a session without hearing anything from the Bible. If I am correct, I respectfully ask that you would take the time to read and study my whole original post and not grossly misinterpret what I said. I am not saying “praise God” because an individual was healed without the Bible. I am saying “praise God” that He provided means of healing for people struggling with severe PTSD. You say you know people who have come out more messed up from going to counseling outside the church, but chances are those people were not continuing to get guidance from a pastor or church mentor as I said is really important if one seeks counseling outside their church. That is also purely anecdotal, and I could argue that I also know people who have come out “more messed up” from church counseling because they went seeking help and were given Bible verses to read with no practical application, and that resulted in them feeling even more discouraged, and sometimes to the point of leaving their church.

 

[John Bunion's Big Toe]

Ultimately, I think it would be marvelous if more Christians acknowledged the fact that some therapeutic methods out there are gifts from God. Man is the pinnacle of His creation, and He gave us inquiring minds. God has revealed to those inquiring minds how complex the brain is. Consider ART (Accelerated Resolution Therapy), which was designed for helping individuals with PTSD. One can go through a whole ART session without hearing a single Bible verse, but they leave that session experiencing dramatic change because their trauma is not haunting them anymore. Is that not wonderful? I was trained in this therapy and saw firsthand remarkable results in several clients. These clients would have recurring nightmares and flashbacks about their trauma(s), and in a follow-up one week later, they would reveal to me that they hardly even think about that trauma anymore. Praise God!

It would appear you are referring to my comment about ART being a useful therapy for people with trauma and how one can go through a session without hearing anything from the Bible. If I am correct, I respectfully ask that you would take the time to read and study my whole original post and not grossly misinterpret what I said. I am not saying “praise God” because an individual was healed without the Bible. I am saying “praise God” that He provided means of healing for people struggling with severe PTSD. You say you know people who have come out more messed up from going to counseling outside the church, but chances are those people were not continuing to get guidance from a pastor or church mentor as I said is really important if one seeks counseling outside their church. That is also purely anecdotal, and I could argue that I also know people who have come out “more messed up” from church counseling because they went seeking help and were given Bible verses to read with no practical application, and that resulted in them feeling even more discouraged, and sometimes to the point of leaving their church.

Read what you said (I actually had to search for the reference post). The implication is that we should praise God that people can be healed without the Bible. That's such a strange thing to say. Obviously common grace is real, but words are important, and you should reconsider how you stated that. The way you stated might as well have read "I can do therapy and we don't even need the Bible. Huzzah!" I'm not saying that's your intent, but the implications of what you said are straight up disturbing. When have you ever heard anyone go "My surgeon removed my cancer and he wasn't even a Christian!!" Well, ok then. That would be a weird thing to have to qualify unless one needed to justify their use of that particular practitioner.



I already addressed the experience piece which you would know if you read and studied my post as you are telling me to do with yours.

 

[Taahanni]

Read what you said (I actually had to search for the reference post). The implication is that we should praise God that people can be healed without the Bible. That's such a strange thing to say. Obviously common grace is real, but words are important, and you should reconsider how you stated that. The way you stated might as well have read "I can do therapy and we don't even need the Bible. Huzzah!" I'm not saying that's your intent, but the implications of what you said are straight up disturbing. When have you ever heard anyone go "My surgeon removed my cancer and he wasn't even a Christian!!" Well, ok then. That would be a weird thing to have to qualify unless one needed to justify their use of that particular practitioner.



I already addressed the experience piece which you would know if you read and studied my post as you are telling me to do with yours.

No one else seems to have gotten that impression from what I said, so I’m not sure how or why you did. I do believe you are missing the point of my original post. I think I stated very clearly the importance of receiving Biblical guidance throughout the whole counseling process. In any case, I will restate something I mentioned earlier, that I do not think true healing can come without the Gospel.

 

[John Bunion's Big Toe]

No one else seems to have gotten that impression from what I said, so I’m not sure how or why you did. I do believe you are missing the point of my original post. I think I stated very clearly the importance of receiving Biblical guidance throughout the whole counseling process. In any case, I will restate something I mentioned earlier, that I do not think true healing can come without the Gospel.

I believe that, as pertains to the Spirit, the Gospel alone is sufficient.

As pertains to the body, medications may be used.

Where the body is the primary problem, such as a TBI or a disease like Tourettes, then we treat the body. Obviously we don't treat the body by throwing a Bible at it, but I think we would all hope the doctor has been influenced by Christian medical ethics.

When the spirit is the problem we offer either Biblical encouragement or rebuke- whichever is needed- perhaps both.

If there are overlapping issues between spiritual and physical we may treat the body and spirit in tandem.

I do not believe in "mental health" because I do not think anything other than the Bible is needed to treat the spirit.

 

[Taahanni]

Thank you Monica and many others who contributed to this subject in an edifying way. I plan on reading through the whole thing again when I get a chance.

Respectfully, MacArthur's remarks were ignorant and demonstrate such a truncated view of causality.

Like in other areas, looking at adjacent conditions other than seemingly abstract conditions can shed light on the subject. Unless I missed it, demetia has not been considered. If I missed it, I'll write more after going through the thread again. Dementia makes for better thought experiments because the idea of a physical cause being the source of negative and reduced cognitive and behavioral output is not controversial.

My main point is to those who would outright dismiss secular designations, often just symptom clusters, and necessarily deny any physical casaulity that cannot be directly attributable to a sin. Here is the rub: should a person with dementia be placed on church discipline for saying horrible things about his neighbor that hitherto we unheard of? Is he merely sinning?

This is where wisdom comes in to play with medication and "confrontation."

This is a good question about dementia. I also know some individuals whose personalities were altered dramatically following a stroke. I often wonder where counseling comes into play in situations like these. These issues definitely require much prayer!

 

[FivePointSpurgeonist]

I have benefited greatly from MacArhur... but this video was helpful, thanks for sharing.

 

[Stephen L Smith]

Thank you for the book recommendation. I'll look into it. I'm familiar with Care through her Children's books, but I'm not familiar with the Paraclete method. I'd appreciate any resources

I sincerely encourage you- read Simonetta Carr's book then we can discuss if mental illness is an appropriate term.

 

[John Bunion's Big Toe]

I sincerely encourage you- read Simonetta Carr's book then we can discuss if mental illness is an appropriate term.

I'll put it on my list. I have a toddler and a newborn, so it might be a year or twelve before I actually get it read.