Baptists are not Protestants

Discussion in 'Church History' started by Davidius, Apr 30, 2008.

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  1. Davidius

    Davidius Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    I know that some of the Baptists on the board get upset when some Presbyterians say that Baptists aren't Reformed. Well, it appears as though we're being quite lenient, and in comparison to Baptists, nonetheless! Recently I was looking at the websites of churches in Darmstadt, Germany and came across an article at the "Bibel Baptisten Gemeinde" (Bible Baptist Church) entitled "Baptisten sind keine Protestanten" (Baptists are not Protestants). Here is the link to a full English translation.

    (note: I obviously think this is ridiculous. It's just funny and I wanted to share it because it is an example of Baptists who are trying very hard not to be affiliated with the Reformed, for some silly and obviously bad reasons.)

    I'll quote some particularly interesting passages:

    If you click on "Sign our Guestbook" and then "Read Entires," you'll see that I linked them to the London Baptist Confession. ;)
  2. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Puritan Board Doctor


    Some Baptists identify with Protestantism and some do not.
  3. Devin

    Devin Puritan Board Sophomore

    Well shucks. I guess we don't get any of the buzz words :(
  4. Grymir

    Grymir Puritan Board Graduate

  5. Davidius

    Davidius Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    You get "Baptist." :D At least they didn't say "No creed but Christ. No title but 'Christian'!"
  6. Devin

    Devin Puritan Board Sophomore

    I was kind of waiting for something to be said in the article about potluck dinners, actually. ;)
  7. staythecourse

    staythecourse Puritan Board Junior

    I am encouraged by this part

    I like.
  8. Davidius

    Davidius Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    From what I understand, the American colonists were Congregationalists and Presbyterians. Can someone provide any information about Baptists who were influential in the development of American politics?
    Last edited: May 1, 2008
  9. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Puritan Board Doctor

    Isaac Backus was one. Baptists became much more prominent after the First Great Awakening.
  10. Grymir

    Grymir Puritan Board Graduate

    Baptists are not Protestants (can I say different Dispensations? :D). Although they used to be Calvinistic. (Of course, so were alot of protestants). Presbyterian pot lucks are great, but I bet there's more homecooked food at Baptist's pot lucks! (hmm, used to be Calvinistic, great pot lucks, maybe they are more related than we think)

    A short study of Church History will show that Baptist's have a different origin than the Reformation, but because of their following the Bible, there are similarities of Doctrine.
  11. Presbyterian Deacon

    Presbyterian Deacon Puritan Board Graduate

    Dates in Baptist History

    In 1525 Swiss Anabaptists broke with Zwingli.

    1535 Anabaptists in Zurich were suppressed.

    1537 Menno Simons became leader of the Dutch Anabaptists

    1538 Efforts made to expell Anabaptists from England

    1609 First English General Baptist Church formed in Holland

    1611 Organization of First General Baptist Church in England

    1638 The first Particular Baptist Church organized by Spilsbury

    1638-39 Organization of the first Baptist church in America @ Providence RI by Roger Williams

    1644 London Confession of 1644/ Organization of Association of London Particular Baptists.


    But NO "Baptist" activity prior to Zwingli. Sounds like a product of the Reformation to me.:2cents:
  12. Davidius

    Davidius Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    Well, all right. I guess I was thinking of earlier. Shouldn't they really be thanking the Presbyterians who revised the WCF for the separation of Church and State, though? :D
  13. PuritanCovenanter

    PuritanCovenanter Moderator Staff Member

    Actually, I believe I heard that Patrick Henry attended both Baptist and Presbyterian Churches. Both were heavily persecuted because they were not licensed nor supported by the King as the Church of England was the Official church of the state.

    Another thing.... It matters which Baptists you want to direct your point at. The Particular Baptists claim their heritage comes from the Reformers. Not the other groups the article claims. Confessional Baptists are Protestant in nature and their Confession addresses Catholicism as the Reformers does. At least that is how I understand it.

    Yes there are Baptists who claim they are not protestant because they had nothing to protest against since they didn't come out of Catholicism. What ever.
  14. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Puritan Board Doctor

    Here is another article about Backus. Backus predated the revised WCF by decades and I don't think anyone on either side would disagree that the revision is much closer to his views than it is to the original. The revisions of the WCF came after the Constitutional Convention as well.
  15. PuritanCovenanter

    PuritanCovenanter Moderator Staff Member

  16. Contra_Mundum

    Contra_Mundum Pilgrim, Alien, Stranger Staff Member

    This is ErgunCaner's line. He wants no part of the Reformation.
  17. Zenas

    Zenas Snow Miser

    This is wrong. 80% of the Founding Fathers were evil, evil Calvinist Protestants.
  18. Presbyterian Deacon

    Presbyterian Deacon Puritan Board Graduate

    Dates continued

    1660 Organization of General Assembly of all Associations of General Baptists in London

    1670 Organization of General Six-Principle Baptists in Rhode Island

    1677 Baptist Confession of 1677 (a Baptist revision of WCF)

    1689 General Assembly of General Baptists threatened by Arian teachings of Matthew Caffyn

    1689 London Confession of Particular Baptists/ General Assembly of Particular Baptists organized in London

    1707 Organization of Philadelphia Association of Baptists (first Baptist association in America).
  19. Wannabee

    Wannabee Obi Wan Kenobi

    Whoa! Wait a minute. What about the trail of blood that goes back to Noah? Wasn't he the first baptist? I know he had the first potlucks because he was the first one who got to eat meat. And obviously he and his household were baptized as believers when God sent the flood, ruling out paedobaptism. Don't any of you study historical theology?!
  20. PuritanCovenanter

    PuritanCovenanter Moderator Staff Member

    General Baptists are not Particular Baptists. They have their roots in the Anabaptists and are arminian. They also had various doctrines from church to church.

    The 1677 was not a revision of the WCF but was a take off from the Savoy Declaration (which was a modified WCF by John Owen and Company) and was adopted in 1689 in London as the Confession of the Particular Baptist Churches to replace the 1644/46 LBCF.
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2008
  21. Presbyterian Deacon

    Presbyterian Deacon Puritan Board Graduate

    Aware of the differences between General and Particular. My point was simply that the terms "Anabaptists", "Baptists" don't seem to be known in history PRIOR to Zwingli's time, making them a product of the Reformation era.

    As for 1677 Confession, this is how it is described in A History of the Baptists by Robert G. Torbet (Judson Press), 1950.
  22. Simply_Nikki

    Simply_Nikki Puritan Board Junior

    So what's the point of all this? :candle:
  23. PuritanCovenanter

    PuritanCovenanter Moderator Staff Member

    Some Baptists don't want to be classified with the Reformers in being called Protestants.

    Someone seemed to think it was interesting that Baptists were not Protestants.

    Particular Baptists are probably protestant.

    Someone thought Baptists were not involved with the beginnings of the United States but that just simply is not true.

    Sounds like some guys just want to slam on Baptists like they are second class citizens. Maybe Baptists are red headed step children who are just strong willed. Who knows?
  24. Grymir

    Grymir Puritan Board Graduate

    I hope nobody wants to slam Baptist's. They (and maybe me) are the real deal.

    Here's the rest of the page from the OP that was left off:

    "The Price of Unity

    By Vernon C. Lyons

    Twentieth century theologians have streamlined Christianity by reducing all the virtues to one - unity. In our generation the most respectable "ism" is ecumenism. Few people discern that there is a false unity as well as a true unity and that each is purchased at a staggering price.

    False church unity, which is the most popular kind, is purchased with freedom as the price. Gospel liberty is obliterated and liberty of conscience becomes impractical, if not impossible. The communion of saints is forfeited for a communion of committees. The minority speaks for the mass and the conscience of the individual Christian is by-passed for the consensus of a committee.

    This kind of church unity is also attained at the price of truth. Those who major on mergers tend to believe very little and after merging believe still less. They are more noted for their compromises than their convictions. Their spiritual discernment having been dulled, they move in a doctrinal dusk that calls non-churches churches and regards unbelievers as believers. In the mania to merge, fixed truths become forgotten tenets.

    True church unity is also costly! It is to be optained not by compromise, but by conflict. The faith must not be diluted, but defended (Jude 3). It may cost a man his unscriptual creed and his man-made catechism. This kind of unity flows from a humility which is willing to reject human tradition and subject itself to divine truth, as stated in God's Holy Word. This unity is described by the words, "One Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Eph. 4:5). The beginning of this unity is one Lord. The basis of the unity is one faith. The badge of this unity is one baptism.

    This true unity will cost you your prejudice, your pride and perhaps even your popularity.

    Vernon C. Lyons has served the nationally-known Ashburn Baptist Church since 1951. Newsmen from NBC, CBS, ABC and WBC have videotaped at Ashburn Baptist as Lyons applied truth to current issues.

    His articles have appeared in Moody Monthly, The Baptist Bulletin, The Sword of the Lord, The Biblical Research Monthly, Psychology for Living and The Christian Reader.

    A champion of religious liberty, Pastor Lyons has testified before numerous legislative committees upholding separation of church and state. His church started thirty-four churches.

    Charles Haddon Spurgeon (1834-1892), a name that needs no introduction, stated: "We believe that the Baptists are the original Christians. We did not commence our existence at the reformation, we were reformers before Luther and Calvin were born: we never came from the Church of Rome, for we were never in it, but we have an unbroken line up to the Apostles themselves. We have always existed from the very days of Christ, and our principles, sometimes veiled and forgotten, like a river which may travel underground for a little season, have always had honest and holy adherents.

    Persecuted alike by Romanists and Protestants of almost every sect, yet there has never existed a government holding Baptist principles which persecuted others; nor, I believe any body of Baptists ever held it to be right to put the conscience of others under the control of man."

    (From The New Park Street Pulpit, Volume VII, page 225) "

    Now that's good stuff!
  25. timmopussycat

    timmopussycat Puritan Board Junior

    Some of us remain Calvinistic even today.

    A short study of Church History shows that the Baptists as opposed to the Anabaptists are so doctrinally close to the Protestants that they fully deserve the label.
  26. PuritanCovenanter

    PuritanCovenanter Moderator Staff Member

    I think I will disagree with Spurgeon and I think Tom Nettles does also. I believe Nettles states that our heritage also starts around the 1600's.
  27. DMcFadden

    DMcFadden Puritanboard Commissioner

    David, baptist John Leland actually helped get the Bill of Rights into the Constitution. On March 7, 1788 the Virginians met to discuss the ratification of the Constitution. Leland actually had more votes to represent the state than Madison (who had a large part in drafting it!).

    Here is how a baptist describes it . . .

    And, here is how Madison expressed himself on the baptists in colonial America . . .

    "The Episcopal clergy are generally for it. . . . The Presbyterians seem as ready to set up an establishment which would take them in as they were to pull one down which shut them out. The Baptists, however, standing firm by their avowed principle of the complete separation of church and state, declared it to be "repugnant to the spirit of the Gospel for the Legislature thus to proceed in matters of religion, that no human laws ought to be established for the purpose." (James Madison, Writings, II, 183-191.)
  28. Simply_Nikki

    Simply_Nikki Puritan Board Junior

    That's a bit how I feel. :um:
  29. DMcFadden

    DMcFadden Puritanboard Commissioner


    1. Origins of baptists: a. SOME say Ana-baptists; b. A FEW say pre-Reformational; SOME say Puritan Calvinists.
    2. How does one decide? I side with McBeth on this one: "Our best historical evidence . . . they apparently emerged out of the Puritan-Separatist movement."

    I won't EVER try to call a baptist "Reformed," if you all PLEASE NEVER EVER EVEN THINK of classing us with the nutty Anabaptists.

    My theological forebearers were not Swiss kooks or "charismatic" Germans of whom Luther could only opine that he thought that they "swallowed the Holy Spirit feathers and all." Rather, the Magisterial Reformers were the ones to whom real baptists looked, at least until the both the Northern Baptists and Southern Baptists went Arminian in the wake of the Second Great Awakening.
    Last edited: May 1, 2008
  30. Grymir

    Grymir Puritan Board Graduate

    Hi DMcFadden!

    The stuff you say in what I've quoted above is what I agree with. The Protestant's came out of the Roman Church. The Baptist's out of the English Church. That's what I meant by different origins. And I like the statement about classing us with the nutty Anabaptists. There is no way they could even be considered 'Baptist'. The influences that each drew from the church they left is apparent. That's why I don't think that Baptist's are Protestants. (Not all Reformed Theology is Covenant Theology, So when I was saying Baptist's used to be Calvinistic, I wasn't implying Covenant Theology).

    I hope this clears up a little of what I said, but if I've made it worse, feel free to say so - Grymir.
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