What Kind of Elements Should We Use?
- Thread starter RamistThomist
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LadyFlynt
Puritan Board Doctor
I say cancel and wait until bread and wine become available. While I don't wish to minimize difficulties, there is a significance attached to bread and wine that pizza and coke cannot convey.
Cancel and reschedule.
But want to know:
jawyman
Puritan Board Junior
I say cancel and wait until bread and wine become available. While I don't wish to minimize difficulties, there is a significance attached to bread and wine that pizza and coke cannot convey.
But want to know:
I too want to know: 
Poor Pergie is twisting in the wind, and no one offers anything but light-hearted banter.
Shocking.
:bawling:
I'll put in my worth. I would get something as close to the original as I could. That's it. And if nothing seemed to fit the bill, then I'd wait until I had something close enough for me.
But I'd let the people know that we were using what we had, and not what we ought, if the circumstances (Providence) would only allow it.
Eventually, I would think that the goal would be to be eating the same meal as the rest of the church, world-wide. It isn't simply what we are doing (Communion) but also how we are doing it. Eventually, I would expect that importers would get appropriate items to customers who wish to purchase them.
Shocking.
:bawling:I'll put in my
worth. I would get something as close to the original as I could. That's it. And if nothing seemed to fit the bill, then I'd wait until I had something close enough for me.But I'd let the people know that we were using what we had, and not what we ought, if the circumstances (Providence) would only allow it.
Eventually, I would think that the goal would be to be eating the same meal as the rest of the church, world-wide. It isn't simply what we are doing (Communion) but also how we are doing it. Eventually, I would expect that importers would get appropriate items to customers who wish to purchase them.
You cannot have Holy Communion with Pizza and Coke hence the question is moot.
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
Every frat house I've been to has wine around at least, with bread available at the local 7-Eleven.
Walter Steuart, Collections and Observations Concerning the Worship, Discipline, Government of the Church of Scotland (1770), p. 98:
Amazing Grace
Puritan Board Junior
Well andrew, Pergie is in some area that I guess is poorer than poor. AS george costanza once said about the handicapped girl who had to go uphill becasue he parked in the handicapped spot;
"These people pergie is around are probably those poor people who want everything done for them, can't they throw some water and flour over a flame and make some bread themselves and walk on some grapes?''
I do have another question, what is this so called 3rd world? Where are the first and the second?
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
Well andrew, Pergie is in some area that I guess is poorer than poor. AS george costanza once said about the handicapped girl who had to go uphill becasue he parked in the handicapped spot;
"These people pergie is around are probably those poor people who want everything done for them, can't they throw some water and flour over a flame and make some bread themselves and walk on some grapes?''
I do have another question, what is this so called 3rd world? Where are the first and the second?
Well, I've lived in the third world. For several years. If there is a place that has only pizza and coke, I think it would have to be in the first or second. I can sympathize with the difficulties of getting what you need in some places, but it's hard to feel compassion for frat houses. At least wrt proper administration of the Lord's Supper.
Coram Deo
Puritan Board Junior
Pergy......
I happen to know that Grapes are grown on every continent that Man lives on.. They may be poor Grapes, but any Grape can be fermented into Wine...
cultivars of Vitis vinifera, the European grapevine native to the Mediterranean and Central Asia.
Vitis labrusca, Native to the Eastern United States and Canada.
Vitis riparia, Native to the entire Eastern U.S. and north to Quebec.
Vitis rotundifolia, Native to the Southeastern United States from Delaware to the Gulf of Mexico.
Vitis vulpina Frost grape. Native to the United States Midwest east to the coast up through New York.
Vitis amurensis Most Asian species and African.
The sea grape Coccoloba uvifera, Polygonaceae and is native to the islands of the Caribbean Sea.
The grape is almost a universal plant which makes it perfect for the Lord's Supper...
But.....
Where you live (No Names Mentioned), I Happen to also know that Rice is a Major agricultural plant and Rice can be turned into Rice Wine (Saki), Also other plants are made into Wine where you live... Tuak, a sweet palm wine, Brem, also sweet, non-distilled rice based drink, and Arak a distilled rice based drink.
Also where you live, It was thought incompatible with growing grapes. But some traditional wineries were established.
Enter Hattan wineries... Together they have found grapes that can flourish in the climate and produced remarkable wines. The weather permits the vines to be evergreen and up to three harvests a year can be expected...
So even in YOUR remote corner of the world, Grapes can be grown and fermented into Wine for the Supper of the Lord...
I happen to know that Grapes are grown on every continent that Man lives on.. They may be poor Grapes, but any Grape can be fermented into Wine...
cultivars of Vitis vinifera, the European grapevine native to the Mediterranean and Central Asia.
Vitis labrusca, Native to the Eastern United States and Canada.
Vitis riparia, Native to the entire Eastern U.S. and north to Quebec.
Vitis rotundifolia, Native to the Southeastern United States from Delaware to the Gulf of Mexico.
Vitis vulpina Frost grape. Native to the United States Midwest east to the coast up through New York.
Vitis amurensis Most Asian species and African.
The sea grape Coccoloba uvifera, Polygonaceae and is native to the islands of the Caribbean Sea.
The grape is almost a universal plant which makes it perfect for the Lord's Supper...
But.....
Where you live (No Names Mentioned), I Happen to also know that Rice is a Major agricultural plant and Rice can be turned into Rice Wine (Saki), Also other plants are made into Wine where you live... Tuak, a sweet palm wine, Brem, also sweet, non-distilled rice based drink, and Arak a distilled rice based drink.
Also where you live, It was thought incompatible with growing grapes. But some traditional wineries were established.
Enter Hattan wineries... Together they have found grapes that can flourish in the climate and produced remarkable wines. The weather permits the vines to be evergreen and up to three harvests a year can be expected...
So even in YOUR remote corner of the world, Grapes can be grown and fermented into Wine for the Supper of the Lord...
Amazing Grace
Puritan Board Junior
Well andrew, Pergie is in some area that I guess is poorer than poor. AS george costanza once said about the handicapped girl who had to go uphill becasue he parked in the handicapped spot;
"These people pergie is around are probably those poor people who want everything done for them, can't they throw some water and flour over a flame and make some bread themselves and walk on some grapes?''
I do have another question, what is this so called 3rd world? Where are the first and the second?
Well, I've lived in the third world. For several years. If there is a place that has only pizza and coke, I think it would have to be in the first or second. I can sympathize with the difficulties of getting what you need in some places, but it's hard to feel compassion for frat houses. At least wrt proper administration of the Lord's Supper.
I am missing the thought of frat houses andrew. It as well as other things is going right over my head.
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
Well andrew, Pergie is in some area that I guess is poorer than poor. AS george costanza once said about the handicapped girl who had to go uphill becasue he parked in the handicapped spot;
"These people pergie is around are probably those poor people who want everything done for them, can't they throw some water and flour over a flame and make some bread themselves and walk on some grapes?''
I do have another question, what is this so called 3rd world? Where are the first and the second?
Well, I've lived in the third world. For several years. If there is a place that has only pizza and coke, I think it would have to be in the first or second. I can sympathize with the difficulties of getting what you need in some places, but it's hard to feel compassion for frat houses. At least wrt proper administration of the Lord's Supper.
I am missing the thought of frat houses andrew. It as well as other things is going right over my head.
It's just the only hypothetical place I can think of (half-humorously) that has pizza and coke but nothing else. No biggie.
Amazing Grace
Puritan Board Junior
I am missing the thought of frat houses andrew. It as well as other things is going right over my head.
It's just the only hypothetical place I can think of (half-humorously) that has pizza and coke but nothing else. No biggie.
Oh ok...lol phewwwwwwwwwwwwww.. I thought it was some new buzz word of discontent with a situation.
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
Yes, surely you need bread in order to make a pizza?
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Amazing Grace
Puritan Board Junior
Well I hope pergie was being fascicious anyway...
moral necessity
Puritan Board Junior
If unleavened bread symbolizes the sinlessness of Christ, is Paul saying that this not an important idea to have conveyed to us while eating the bread, since, as somebody said earlier in this thread, Paul used the word for "bread", not "unleavened bread" in his letter to the Corinthians? Would that therefore mean that the only purpose of breaking and eating of the bread is to communicate to everyone who eats it that they are partakers in the body of Christ?
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
leavened bread could also symbolize the growth of the kingdom.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
wine has a different force than grape juice:
Zechariah 9:15, "The Lord of hosts will protect them,
and they shall devour, and tread down the sling stones,
and they shall drink and roar as if drunk with wine,
and be full like a bowl,
drenched like the corners of the altar.
"But the passage pictures Israel drunk with another kind of wine: filled with the wine of Yahweh's Spirit, Israel would be bold, wild, untamed, boisterous in battle. This suggests one dimension of the symbolism of wine in the Lord's Supper: it loosens our inhibitions so that we wil fight the Lord's battles in a kind of drunken frenzy. If this sounds impious, how much more Psalm 78:65, where the Divine Warrior himself is described as a mighty man overcome with wine? Yahweh fights like Samson, but far more ferociously than Samson: He fights like a drunken Samson!"
Zechariah 9:15, "The Lord of hosts will protect them,
and they shall devour, and tread down the sling stones,
and they shall drink and roar as if drunk with wine,
and be full like a bowl,
drenched like the corners of the altar.
"But the passage pictures Israel drunk with another kind of wine: filled with the wine of Yahweh's Spirit, Israel would be bold, wild, untamed, boisterous in battle. This suggests one dimension of the symbolism of wine in the Lord's Supper: it loosens our inhibitions so that we wil fight the Lord's battles in a kind of drunken frenzy. If this sounds impious, how much more Psalm 78:65, where the Divine Warrior himself is described as a mighty man overcome with wine? Yahweh fights like Samson, but far more ferociously than Samson: He fights like a drunken Samson!"
moral necessity
Puritan Board Junior
Yeah, but, shouldn't what it represents be drawn from the passover feast from which the bread was taken? If so, then, wouldn't unleavened bread refer to sinlessness and leven refer to sin?
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Perhaps. My point was that leaven refers to growth. Not to sin. Not to kingdom stuff. Just growth.
moral necessity
Puritan Board Junior
It certainly contains that idea. Do you think it only refers to growth when Christ says, "Beware of the leven of the Pharisees?"
The kind of growth would have to do with whatever the context was.
Mat 13:33 He told them another parable. "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, till it was all leavened."
Mat 13:33 He told them another parable. "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, till it was all leavened."
moral necessity
Puritan Board Junior
I guess I'm getting off topic, but, I'm not sure what you mean by "kind of growth." Do you mean "slow or fast growth", "irregular growth"; or do you mean "what kind of thing is growing"?
I tend to think of leven as a thing or an object, first and foremost. It is a thing that has been added or mixed with another thing, as yeast is added to dough. It also has inherent within it a property of growing or overtaking the object it is placed in. When Jesus warns the disciples to beware of the leven of the Pharisees, he is referring to a specific thing about the Pharisees that has a tendency to overtake or consume whatever it is mixed into. Sin is symbolized as leven; malice is described with the term leven. It is a thing.
And I'm trying to help answer your question, nothing really on the topic either. If I'd begun this part of the conversation, I probably would have used the term "influence" rather than "growth", but the ideas are related.
The point that was made, and which I tried to make explicit with a Scripture text of my own, is that "leaven" as a symbol in the Bible isn't equatable to "sin" or "malice." And the proof of that is that the Kingdom of Heaven is like leaven. The Kingdom of Heaven promotes neither sin or malice, but the very opposite of those traits.
The "leaven of the Pharisees" (Mt. 16:6) was their pernicious influence. THEY made their "leavening" bad. THEY made their leaven sinful. So, In my humble opinion, you might want to adjust your thought about "leaven" in the Bible being a particular (sinful?) thing, because I think its getting you off in one particular direction. You'd have then to overcompensate in the case of Mt 13:33.
If, in 1 Cor 5:8, Paul uses the term "old leaven" which he then describes epexegetically as "leaven of malice", it doesn't follow to say that Paul means for us to think sylogictically: A) Leaven is bad in Scripture, b) Malice is bad, :. C) Malice and leaven are both Scripture-evils. The first premise (A) is neither to be assumed nor is it necessary to his point, which is entirely based on Passover ritual, Ex.13:7.
I'm just saying that Mt. 13:33 thoroughly explodes the idea that leaven in the Bible is an exclusively negative symbol, and so we need to adjust our hermeneutic to accommodate that fact.
Here is another: Lev 23:17 "Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD." Leaven was forbidden on the altar of burnt offering (Lev. 2:11), but clearly it was not excluded from all OT ceremony.
Peace.
The point that was made, and which I tried to make explicit with a Scripture text of my own, is that "leaven" as a symbol in the Bible isn't equatable to "sin" or "malice." And the proof of that is that the Kingdom of Heaven is like leaven. The Kingdom of Heaven promotes neither sin or malice, but the very opposite of those traits.
The "leaven of the Pharisees" (Mt. 16:6) was their pernicious influence. THEY made their "leavening" bad. THEY made their leaven sinful. So, In my humble opinion, you might want to adjust your thought about "leaven" in the Bible being a particular (sinful?) thing, because I think its getting you off in one particular direction. You'd have then to overcompensate in the case of Mt 13:33.
If, in 1 Cor 5:8, Paul uses the term "old leaven" which he then describes epexegetically as "leaven of malice", it doesn't follow to say that Paul means for us to think sylogictically: A) Leaven is bad in Scripture, b) Malice is bad, :. C) Malice and leaven are both Scripture-evils. The first premise (A) is neither to be assumed nor is it necessary to his point, which is entirely based on Passover ritual, Ex.13:7.
I'm just saying that Mt. 13:33 thoroughly explodes the idea that leaven in the Bible is an exclusively negative symbol, and so we need to adjust our hermeneutic to accommodate that fact.
Here is another: Lev 23:17 "Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD." Leaven was forbidden on the altar of burnt offering (Lev. 2:11), but clearly it was not excluded from all OT ceremony.
Peace.
Grymir
Puritan Board Graduate
Hi Y'all, These are all good posts. Now, some have said that I was majoring on the minors. I spoke about if I could change one thing, it would be to change the heretical grape juice instead of the Christian contemporary music or the therapeutic, moralistic deistic sermons I have to hear each week. The reason is that communion is a sacrament. The others are how we, well, they worship (so-called). But they are all related. I call it heretical because Jesus used unleavened bread in the passover and wine. Nobody can doubt that because according to the Torah, they had to get the leavening out of the house during passover to symbolize their hasty exodus from Egypt. We have such a don't drink booze culture that we want to make God's word fit our wants and desires. Which is how all these things are related. If I, as a non-seminary trained, non-ordained person can read the Bible, and the church's early history on the subject, and they say unleavened bread and wine, why is this even being debated? You all can call me names and say I'm nuts, but unless you can make a case from scripture and evident reason, The church should stand firm on this matter. Because that is what makes the visible church the visible church. Where the Word of God is properly preached and the sacraments properly administered. 
Some personal conclusions:
Okay, so rice wine or maybe banana juice and sago bread (not really bread, but like bread) is good enough. Tell the people "This is the best you've got" and make do. Right.
Jesus used the elements of his place and time.
Rice wine/or banana juice and sago bread or taro root CAN substitute in a culture if that is ALL that is available.
Pizza and coke in the US, however, seems to signify a lack of decor rather than a mere necessity of substituting elements. It bespeaks frivolity rather than trying to do the Lord's Supper with the best one has.
When one deviates from the elements of bread and wine one usually falls into three classes:
(1) The Local food and local bread staple group: I.e. those that simply do not use bread and wine as normal staples and often are poor. For these it seems more tolerance ought to be exercised,
(2) Former alcholics: who do not want alcohol. For these too I believe tolerance ought to be given as they substitute grape juice for wine
(3) Those who are in the US but like to rejoice in their liberty and thus use pizza and coke, etc. I believe that these ought to be opposed due to their reasoning. They are not destitute, bread and wine is readily available...so why not use it?
For destitute people in the Third World that do not eat bread and wine normally I say: As the situation of the "local juice and local bread staple group" improves, perhaps they will improve these elements, but let's take communion now with the "good enough stuff" until improvements come.
For this group, it seems a greater imperative to partake of communion with banana juice and bajed sago than to cancel it entirely due to lac of bread or wine. In my area the people have never even seen bread or wine. There is a danger in leading them to think of some food as more holy also. Although, from the NT example, Jesus did use bread and wine and it does seem that bread and wine would be preferable (if available).
Okay, so rice wine or maybe banana juice and sago bread (not really bread, but like bread) is good enough. Tell the people "This is the best you've got" and make do. Right.
Jesus used the elements of his place and time.
Rice wine/or banana juice and sago bread or taro root CAN substitute in a culture if that is ALL that is available.
Pizza and coke in the US, however, seems to signify a lack of decor rather than a mere necessity of substituting elements. It bespeaks frivolity rather than trying to do the Lord's Supper with the best one has.
When one deviates from the elements of bread and wine one usually falls into three classes:
(1) The Local food and local bread staple group: I.e. those that simply do not use bread and wine as normal staples and often are poor. For these it seems more tolerance ought to be exercised,
(2) Former alcholics: who do not want alcohol. For these too I believe tolerance ought to be given as they substitute grape juice for wine
(3) Those who are in the US but like to rejoice in their liberty and thus use pizza and coke, etc. I believe that these ought to be opposed due to their reasoning. They are not destitute, bread and wine is readily available...so why not use it?
For destitute people in the Third World that do not eat bread and wine normally I say: As the situation of the "local juice and local bread staple group" improves, perhaps they will improve these elements, but let's take communion now with the "good enough stuff" until improvements come.
For this group, it seems a greater imperative to partake of communion with banana juice and bajed sago than to cancel it entirely due to lac of bread or wine. In my area the people have never even seen bread or wine. There is a danger in leading them to think of some food as more holy also. Although, from the NT example, Jesus did use bread and wine and it does seem that bread and wine would be preferable (if available).
GRYMIR:
Not to give unneeded offence....But...
It is hard to take lessons from someone speaking about the visible church's purity when the church in their signature is PCUSA.
Why tolerate the PCUSA and then call a poor little unfermented grape a heresy?
Also, another note: It seems that Jesus and the disciples all reclined around the table. Let's talk about the heresy of the chair too!
Not to give unneeded offence....But...
It is hard to take lessons from someone speaking about the visible church's purity when the church in their signature is PCUSA.
Why tolerate the PCUSA and then call a poor little unfermented grape a heresy?
Also, another note: It seems that Jesus and the disciples all reclined around the table. Let's talk about the heresy of the chair too!
Amazing Grace
Puritan Board Junior
Hi Y'all, These are all good posts. Now, some have said that I was majoring on the minors. I spoke about if I could change one thing, it would be to change the heretical grape juice instead of the Christian contemporary music or the therapeutic, moralistic deistic sermons I have to hear each week. The reason is that communion is a sacrament. The others are how we, well, they worship (so-called). But they are all related. I call it heretical because Jesus used unleavened bread in the passover and wine. Nobody can doubt that because according to the Torah, they had to get the leavening out of the house during passover to symbolize their hasty exodus from Egypt. We have such a don't drink booze culture that we want to make God's word fit our wants and desires. Which is how all these things are related. If I, as a non-seminary trained, non-ordained person can read the Bible, and the church's early history on the subject, and they say unleavened bread and wine, why is this even being debated? You all can call me names and say I'm nuts, but unless you can make a case from scripture and evident reason, The church should stand firm on this matter. Because that is what makes the visible church the visible church. Where the Word of God is properly preached and the sacraments properly administered.
Aha, the true fruit of the age of internet theologians. This is the reason the word Heretic has no power attached to it anymore. I'm reminded of the old joke.it bears repeating:
I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. I immediately ran over and said "Stop! Don't do it!"
"Why shouldn't I?" he said.
I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!"
"Like what?"
"Well ... are you religious or atheist?"
"Religious."
"Me too! Are you Christian or Jewish?"
"Christian."
"Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?"
"Protestant."
"Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?"
"Baptist."
"Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?"
"Baptist Church of God."
"Me too! Are you Original Baptist Church of God, or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?"
"Reformed Baptist Church of God."
"Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915?"
"Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915!"
To which I said, "Then die, heretic scum!" and pushed him off.
The man who is now in control of our former church once told us about a congregation in one of the southern states that used moon pies and grape kneehi - he was amused by it and said it's the intent that matters. I'm waiting to hear that he has pulled a similar stunt with our former congregation!
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