C. Matthew McMahon
Christian Preacher
For all the A-mils out there -
How would you give a "one liner" on defining Amillennialism?
How would you give a "one liner" on defining Amillennialism?
One sentence on Amillennialism
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C. Matthew McMahon
Christian Preacher
Amillennialism (also called realized millennialism) argues for the present millennial age manifest in the present reign of Jesus Christ in heaven.
Christ is King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Assessor
As a postmillennial I agree with most, if not all of that statement. Thank you.
Granted, if we flesh it out differences would arise but that is neither here nor there.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Assessor
Originally posted by Ex Nihilo
Wait a minute here....
youthevang
Puritan Board Freshman
"The already but not yet"
biblelighthouse
Puritan Board Junior
I'm postmillenial, and I would agree with your statement above.
You need to come up with something that is *distinctive* from postmillenialism.
Here's a distinctive Amil one-liner, for example:
"The millenial reign of Christ, along with his saints, began with his ascendence to the right hand of the Father; nevertheless, the world will still be predominantly ruled by Satan until Christ physically returns, and most people will never receive salvation."
biblelighthouse
Puritan Board Junior
Originally posted by wsw201
Here is even a better distinctive discription in one word; BIBLICAL!
I suppose I could agree if you mean *optimistic* amil, and not *pessimistic* amil.
I can't agree with this, and it's not just because I'm postmill. I used the same terms when I was still amill. Even then I could see the difference between someone like Cox and many others I knew personally who believed that there would be great success for the gospel in the future. I knew a professor at Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary who probably falls in a grey area in between the two. He's very confident the gospel will have great future success. Amills are not clones of one another and neither are postmills. There's significant variety of belief in those that call themselves amills.
I've personally found that those amills that place a very high emphasis on maintaining an almost pretrib-like "imminance" of Christ's return tend toward pessimism more than those that allow for the possibility that it could be quite a while yet.
Yours In Christ,
Ron
New wine skin
Puritan Board Freshman
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Here's a distinctive Amil one-liner, for example:
"The millenial reign of Christ, along with his saints, began with his ascendence to the right hand of the Father; nevertheless, the world will still be predominantly ruled by Satan until Christ physically returns, and most people will never receive salvation." [/quote]
It is my opinion that oversimplified statements like this one are not useful except to confuse people. These statements make too many exclusions of positive statements, ie... there is more to eschatology than a few clever statements. From the quote given, there is more to Christ's exaltation than his "ascendance", it is His entire work of atonement... His mediatorial office of Priest, Prophet and King that proclaim His accomplished work and Glory. He has sent His Spirit to call and regenerate the elect. Christ is reaping the Harvest! Not one will be lost that the Father has given to Him. As to comments about who is or isn't saved and exact number, that is what cults obsess with. No one knows how many God has called, unless someone knows the number of stars in heaven or the grains of sand along the beaches, which number the seed of Abraham???
We should be show caution in over simplifying complex doctrine.
Here's a distinctive Amil one-liner, for example:
"The millenial reign of Christ, along with his saints, began with his ascendence to the right hand of the Father; nevertheless, the world will still be predominantly ruled by Satan until Christ physically returns, and most people will never receive salvation." [/quote]
It is my opinion that oversimplified statements like this one are not useful except to confuse people. These statements make too many exclusions of positive statements, ie... there is more to eschatology than a few clever statements. From the quote given, there is more to Christ's exaltation than his "ascendance", it is His entire work of atonement... His mediatorial office of Priest, Prophet and King that proclaim His accomplished work and Glory. He has sent His Spirit to call and regenerate the elect. Christ is reaping the Harvest! Not one will be lost that the Father has given to Him. As to comments about who is or isn't saved and exact number, that is what cults obsess with. No one knows how many God has called, unless someone knows the number of stars in heaven or the grains of sand along the beaches, which number the seed of Abraham???
We should be show caution in over simplifying complex doctrine.
biblelighthouse
Puritan Board Junior
We should also show caution in slandering our brothers in Christ by associating them with "cults".
Are you suggesting that Dr. Kenneth Gentry is a "cult" leader? If not, then please retract your comment.
wsw201
Puritan Board Senior
Joseph,
Scott is reacting to your comment about your one-liner on Amil, in that "most people will never receive salvation". What Scott said is correct. No one knows the number of the elect who will be brought into the Kingdom, whether Postmil ar Amil. If he hadn't said it I would have.
If this is the position of Ken Gentry, then Ken Gentry is wrong.
Scott is reacting to your comment about your one-liner on Amil, in that "most people will never receive salvation". What Scott said is correct. No one knows the number of the elect who will be brought into the Kingdom, whether Postmil ar Amil. If he hadn't said it I would have.
If this is the position of Ken Gentry, then Ken Gentry is wrong.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Assessor
Donald Bloesch in his Essentials of Evangelical Theology considers himself an optimistic amillennialist.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Assessor
Scott had (rightly) said that concerning the nature of the number of believers (which no serious person would dare to count) is like counting the number of the sands on the seashore. Of course, but the nature of the illustration suggests an overwhelming amount of believers, not merely a handful.
The amillennial position not only deals with the timing of the millennium but the nature of the millennium. I would say the difference between amillennialism and postmillennialism is amillennialists see the millennium as only celestial in nature, where postmillenialists would say it's also terrestrial in nature. In other words the amillennialist would say that the millennium is that present rule and reign of the saints in heaven. Whereas the postmilennialists will say that the saints will also rule and reign be on earth before Christ's Second Coming.
VanVos
[Edited on 8-3-2005 by VanVos]
VanVos
[Edited on 8-3-2005 by VanVos]
New wine skin
Puritan Board Freshman
Joe, sorry for misunderstanding. As others have pointed out, I am not calling Gentry a cult leader. My point is you cant number the elect, and also that myself being an Amil, disagree on points of the one liner you quoted from Gentry. So I guess I disagree with Gentry's one liner. Thus, I do not think there is a "small" number of elect, nor am I pessimistic. I am Amil. I think the Amil position is easy to misrepresent.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Assessor
What are the opposites of "small" and "pessimistic"?
Obviously not denying that. But the question was not what do amills believe about the church age, but how do they define the millennium. I agree The Church on earth is in heaven by the Spirit Heb 12:22-24 Gal 4:26 The already not yet principle found in scripture. But the focus is still heavenly Col 3:1-3 Phillipp 3:20
VanVos
[Edited on 8-3-2005 by VanVos]
New wine skin
Puritan Board Freshman
Originally posted by Draught Horse
What are the opposites of "small" and "pessimistic"?
Are you trying get me to say "large" = "optimistic" as if this some how clenches the Postmil position or am I reading too much into your smile face?
The number of elect is the number of the elect, regardless of my optimism or pessimism. The scripture says the gate is narrow and few will find it, but it also says that the number of Abrahams seed is countless. To say anymore is to say too much.....
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Assessor
Originally posted by New wine skin
Originally posted by Draught Horse
What are the opposites of "small" and "pessimistic"?
Are you trying get me to say "large" = "optimistic" as if this some how clenches the Postmil position or am I reading too much into your smile face?
The number of elect is the number of the elect, regardless of my optimism or pessimism. The scripture says the gate is narrow and few will find it, but it also says that the number of Abrahams seed is countless. To say anymore is to say too much.....
BB Warfield did an article, "Are there few that be saved?" He argued that Christ's words cannot be used to straight-jacket a system that denies gospel success (which to your credit, you do not maintain).
In another Thread I mentioned this.
Quote:
I'm amill ... Besides Satan was bound when Jesus Came. The Gospel goes forth and no one can stop it. We are in the Gospel age. Jesus is the King of Kings.
Paul said this.
Postmill agrees with all this
My question is...
Does the Postmill believe in a literal 1000 year reign still? I thought the milleniam started when Satan was bound, a few milleniam ago.
[Edited on 8-3-2005 by puritancovenanter]
Quote:
I'm amill ... Besides Satan was bound when Jesus Came. The Gospel goes forth and no one can stop it. We are in the Gospel age. Jesus is the King of Kings.
Paul said this.
Postmill agrees with all this
My question is...
Does the Postmill believe in a literal 1000 year reign still? I thought the milleniam started when Satan was bound, a few milleniam ago.
[Edited on 8-3-2005 by puritancovenanter]
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