RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Good one!
Is Sex Before Marriage wrong?
- Thread starter ABondSlaveofChristJesus
- Start date
- Status
Good one!
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
First of all, you don't know me well enough to say I am 'flipping out'. Secondly, what words have I put in your mouth? I have quoted you, have I not? Thirdly, I have not said that you are trying to 'justify covenant unfaithfulness', have I? Show me where I have said this? I have in fact challenged you (again) in regards to your hermeneutic and your proposition, the same hermeneutic and same proposition you used in the other thread. I have said clearly that the inference of scripture and history disagree with the premise.
As far as Gabriel goes, He showed little respect in his comment.
I am not attacking your character. Have I said antything about you personally? No. Gabriel incites ad hominem; sad.
It is another view that has no place inb Christianity; in fact, I have never heard anyone orthodox argue this point; ever!
[Edited on 2-17-2005 by Scott Bushey]
As far as Gabriel goes, He showed little respect in his comment.
I am not attacking your character. Have I said antything about you personally? No. Gabriel incites ad hominem; sad.
It is another view that has no place inb Christianity; in fact, I have never heard anyone orthodox argue this point; ever!
[Edited on 2-17-2005 by Scott Bushey]
ABondSlaveofChristJesus
Puritan Board Freshman
This doesn't change anything in both views.
Lets refer to this in the instance of the father giving his daughter.
The man could go to the father and make his intentions known that he wants to begin a covenant wth the daughter. Then the ceremony would be making official your covenant.
Ex Nihilo
Puritan Board Senior
BOTH. Nowhere in the Bible is a couple considered married simply because they have had sex.
Marriage is a covenant. Covenant making between two humans requires witnesses. This is somewhat similar to the argument that "I don't really have to be baptized, since my faith is what really unites me to Christ." Yes, our union to Christ through faith is the heart of the thing, but we are also commanded to signify our participation in the covenant through a public sign. How much more does a covenant between two fallible humans, who do not have God's infinite faithfulness, need to be confirmed by a public sign? In extreme circumstances, we understand that baptism, though ordinarily necessary, is not absolutely necessary (such as the thief on the cross). It might also be possible that there are extreme circumstances that would allow a couple to be "married" without a public ceremony... I'm thinking something along the lines of being stranded on a desert island, but even here, I'm not sure. And such situations do not occur in real life. In any case, you can be pretty sure that the majority of couples asking this question are not in this kind of situation or even close. If you have an opportunity to make your covenant between each other public, there is absolutely no reason not to do so.
Of course, baptism isn't a perfect analogy at all, since baptism can either precede or succeed regeneration and thus "actual" covenant inclusion. However, a person would not be admitted to the covenant community without this sign, and the community should not consider a couple married without the external sign of a ceremony with at least some witnesses. And whether the community considers you married is a very big deal, especially considering that the church ought to discipline you for fornication if you aren't married in their eyes.
Bottom line: Two humans simply do not have the authority to make a covenant between themselves without other humans as witnesses. It's not a real covenant until it's made public, and until it's a confirmed covenant, you don't get the covenant benefit of sex.
[Edited on 2-17-2005 by Ex Nihilo]
ReformedWretch
Puritan Board Doctor
When you have sex outside of marriage are you honoring God?
When you have sex before marriage (or curse for that matter) do you;
Matt 22:37(b) love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38This is the great and first commandment. 39And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."
When you have sex before marriage (or curse for that matter) do you;
Matt 22:37(b) love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38This is the great and first commandment. 39And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."
ABondSlaveofChristJesus
Puritan Board Freshman
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Evie,
Forgive me.
Tim writes:
Like I said, it is necessarily, positively, inferred, throughout the bible. Tim, do you accept the doctrine of the trinity?
[Edited on 2-17-2005 by Scott Bushey]
Forgive me.
Tim writes:
Like I said, it is necessarily, positively, inferred, throughout the bible. Tim, do you accept the doctrine of the trinity?
[Edited on 2-17-2005 by Scott Bushey]
ABondSlaveofChristJesus
Puritan Board Freshman
In the second view sex is marriage
Ex Nihilo
Puritan Board Senior
I already explained this in my first post. See the OT commands to purge adultery from the land and the NT commands to the church not even to eat with the sexually immoral. Sexuality is not a private concern.
A view of the covenant family with no biblical support. Throughout the Bible, marriage has been intimately tied to the covenant family (see above references and especially the longer analysis in my first post.) If someone comes up with a different view of the covenant family from what Reformed orthodoxy has held to, he'd better present some pretty solid biblical evidence. As it is, we have no reason to believe that the covenant family isn't intimately tied to marriage and sexuality. There can be no doubt that the church is expected to punish the sexually immoral. If the couple isn't married in the eyes of the church, if they have sex, they are fornicators in the eyes of the church (even if you think they are married in the sight of God) and subject to being completely cut off from covenant fellowship. It certainly doesn't seem like it's just okay.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
End of Discussion. Debate is over.
Tim,
With all respect, your argument is predicated on good & necessary consequence being a bad hermeneutic. We accept GNC. You have to show us that GNC is faulty, should not be used, and be prepared to accept the doctrinal consequences.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Originally posted by Draught Horse
End of Discussion. Debate is over.
Tim,
With all respect, your argument is predicated on good & necessary consequence being a bad hermeneutic. We accept GNC. You have to show us that GNC is faulty, should not be used, and be prepared to accept the doctrinal consequences.
Jacob,
That is what I have been saying since the other thread; to remain consistant, the premise would have to be taken to it's logical conclussion, hence denying all other doctrines, i.e. the Trinitry, NT tithing, Woman at the supper and everything else from scripture that is gleened via NI.
[Edited on 2-17-2005 by Scott Bushey]
ReformedWretch
Puritan Board Doctor
I still believe these kind of things are based on a diminished view of sin. I believe it was RC Sproul who said (paraphrasing) "I don't obey God for 5 seconds let alone for 5 minutes or 5 hours."
We need to broaden our view of sin rather than shrink it.
God forgive us.
We need to broaden our view of sin rather than shrink it.
God forgive us.
Augusta
Puritan Board Doctor
Ok Tim here you go. Read 1 Cor. 7. It is pretty clear that Paul is saying either remain a virgin or marry in this chapter. Those are the choices. Then in verse 8 it says the following:
8 Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
If your "friend" is still unconvinced then he is supressing the truth in unrighteousness IMNSHO because it is pretty clear to me and the rest of the world throughout history. The direct result of sex being a child is also a REALLY big hint from God because He is pretty clear that "households" need a head just as the "church" needs its head and we get those by entering into covenant relationships like Ex Nihilo stated.
8 Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
If your "friend" is still unconvinced then he is supressing the truth in unrighteousness IMNSHO because it is pretty clear to me and the rest of the world throughout history. The direct result of sex being a child is also a REALLY big hint from God because He is pretty clear that "households" need a head just as the "church" needs its head and we get those by entering into covenant relationships like Ex Nihilo stated.
WrittenFromUtopia
Puritan Board Graduate
Could it be stated that sex is the sign and seal of the marriage covenant?
First, you have to be kidding if you think that sex before marriage is okay. It is not only inferred but directly stated all throughout the Scripture. The Bible definitely does say that to have sex before you are married is a sin. (I will list verses and define words in a moment.)
Secondly, you also have to be kidding if you believe that the act of sex makes you married. You can be married without having sex, and you can have sex without being married. It really is that simple.
Marriage is entering a covenant relationship and is defined by both the Scriptures and the laws laws of the nation you live in. If having sex was all it took to be married then what about the case where a person's first sex act is homosexual? Are they married? Or what if it is a child molested by an adult? Are they married? Entering a marriage, therefore, cannot be defined as "having sex."
Now for the proof:
First, does sex equal marriage?
Exodus 22:16-17 - a man could refuse to allow his daughter to marry a man who she had sex with. So marriage was not initiated with sex.
John 8:11 - when Jesus forgave the prostitute "caught in the act" He did not say, "Go back to your husband, the first man you ever slept with." He said, "Go and sin no more."
John 4:18 - He also talked with the woman at the well and said that the man she was living with at the time was not her husband!! She had had so many, but this one was not a husband. What was different? Not the sex!!
Matthew 19:6 - Further, God makes the husband and wife one flesh - but nowhere do the Scriptures say that sex makes you one flesh! Being one flesh is more than physical union. Intimacy is just one part of a husband and wife being "glued" together.
The Bible nowhere teaches that sex initiates the marital covenant. Marriage is a covenant relationship consummated by sex - not entered into when we first have sex!
So what does the Bible say about having sex before marriage?
Acts 15
22Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren. 23They wrote this letter by them:
The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,
To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:
Greetings.
24Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"-to whom we gave no such commandment-- 25it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.
Farewell.
The word in the Greek (porneas) is also translated "fornication" and it means literally, "sexual immoraltiy, prostitution, unchastity, or fornication and it includes any kind of unlawful sexual intercourse. To be chaste is to be celibate, so to be unchaste is to have had sex. And fornication is and always has been defined as "voluntary sexual intercourse between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman."
So let's examine more:
Galatians 5:19 lists sex before marriage as a work of the flesh (definitely a sin!).
Ephesians 5:3 says it is not fitting for saints.
Colossians 3:5 lists it as a sin we are to put to death, to mortify and put away from us.
So what else does the Bible say about sex before marriage?
Well, in the Old Testament you could be killed for it!
Romans 1 lists sexual immorality (ie illegal sex acts) as a work of those turned over by God to a debased mind.
1 Corinthians 18 says that we are to FLEE sexual immorality. And 1 Thessalonians 4:13 says that we should ABSTAIN from sexual immorality.
To deny that sex before marriage is sin, to try to work around it by redefining marriage as equal to sex, or to think that the Bible is not clear about these things is to miss what the Bible says about sex, family, marriage, covenants, the laws of government, obedience, self control, wickedness, and depravity.
Phillip
Secondly, you also have to be kidding if you believe that the act of sex makes you married. You can be married without having sex, and you can have sex without being married. It really is that simple.
Marriage is entering a covenant relationship and is defined by both the Scriptures and the laws laws of the nation you live in. If having sex was all it took to be married then what about the case where a person's first sex act is homosexual? Are they married? Or what if it is a child molested by an adult? Are they married? Entering a marriage, therefore, cannot be defined as "having sex."
Now for the proof:
First, does sex equal marriage?
Exodus 22:16-17 - a man could refuse to allow his daughter to marry a man who she had sex with. So marriage was not initiated with sex.
John 8:11 - when Jesus forgave the prostitute "caught in the act" He did not say, "Go back to your husband, the first man you ever slept with." He said, "Go and sin no more."
John 4:18 - He also talked with the woman at the well and said that the man she was living with at the time was not her husband!! She had had so many, but this one was not a husband. What was different? Not the sex!!
Matthew 19:6 - Further, God makes the husband and wife one flesh - but nowhere do the Scriptures say that sex makes you one flesh! Being one flesh is more than physical union. Intimacy is just one part of a husband and wife being "glued" together.
The Bible nowhere teaches that sex initiates the marital covenant. Marriage is a covenant relationship consummated by sex - not entered into when we first have sex!
So what does the Bible say about having sex before marriage?
Acts 15
22Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren. 23They wrote this letter by them:
The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,
To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:
Greetings.
24Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"-to whom we gave no such commandment-- 25it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.
Farewell.
The word in the Greek (porneas) is also translated "fornication" and it means literally, "sexual immoraltiy, prostitution, unchastity, or fornication and it includes any kind of unlawful sexual intercourse. To be chaste is to be celibate, so to be unchaste is to have had sex. And fornication is and always has been defined as "voluntary sexual intercourse between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman."
So let's examine more:
Galatians 5:19 lists sex before marriage as a work of the flesh (definitely a sin!).
Ephesians 5:3 says it is not fitting for saints.
Colossians 3:5 lists it as a sin we are to put to death, to mortify and put away from us.
So what else does the Bible say about sex before marriage?
Well, in the Old Testament you could be killed for it!
Romans 1 lists sexual immorality (ie illegal sex acts) as a work of those turned over by God to a debased mind.
1 Corinthians 18 says that we are to FLEE sexual immorality. And 1 Thessalonians 4:13 says that we should ABSTAIN from sexual immorality.
To deny that sex before marriage is sin, to try to work around it by redefining marriage as equal to sex, or to think that the Bible is not clear about these things is to miss what the Bible says about sex, family, marriage, covenants, the laws of government, obedience, self control, wickedness, and depravity.
Phillip
ReformedWretch
Puritan Board Doctor
Yay Phillip!
Me Died Blue
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Also, good comments Scott and Jacob on interpretation. And good job Evie on pointing out the biblical nature of the family.That is basically as explicit as it gets. If sex made marriage then that instruction would be meaningless.
It is very interesting that you make that analogy, which I assume is a parallel to circumcision and baptism as the signs and seals of the Covenant of Grace. The ironic thing is, while baptism is the act that brings one into the external Covenant of Grace, it is not legitimate unless performed lawfully according to the pre-existing guidelines of that covenant. Likewise, even if we were to grant your idea of sex being the sign and seal of the marriage covenant, along the lines of that analogy it would not be legitimate unless performed lawfully according to the pre-existing guidelines of that covenant.
I would add to my post above that we need to remember that the word "pornea" includes all "illegal" sex. That means that there is such a thing as "legal" sex. The Bible defines legal sex (the bed undefiled) as sex between a man and woman who are married to each other.
This means that illegal sex, and therfore SINFUL sex, is any sex and all sex acts that are outside of that marriage relationship.
Phillip
This means that illegal sex, and therfore SINFUL sex, is any sex and all sex acts that are outside of that marriage relationship.
Phillip
Me Died Blue
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Also, to hold that sex is what definitively makes marriage, you would have to view it as completely biblically lawful for a Christian man to go through the full wedding ceremony with his fiance, but then before having sex with her, he meets a woman in the airport on the way to their honeymoon and decides he likes her better, so he goes and has sex with her and thus declares himself married to her, since after all, he wasn't quite married to the other woman. The implications are absurd.
Phillip's post is excellent. Let me just add two brief comments with respect to the fact that the Bible militates against the idea that having sex causes one to be married:
Genesis 38: We have absolutely no indication that Judah married Tamar. In fact, he sends her away.
John 4:
If sex equals marriage, then either:
1. Our Lord was wrong when he said that the man the woman lived with "was not her husband"
or
2. The woman lived with the man, and considered him her husband, and yet was completely platonic with him (an impossibly strained reading)
The better reading is that the premise that sex=marriage is a flawed hermeneutic.
Genesis 38: We have absolutely no indication that Judah married Tamar. In fact, he sends her away.
John 4:
If sex equals marriage, then either:
1. Our Lord was wrong when he said that the man the woman lived with "was not her husband"
or
2. The woman lived with the man, and considered him her husband, and yet was completely platonic with him (an impossibly strained reading)
The better reading is that the premise that sex=marriage is a flawed hermeneutic.
Or that if a man and woman in their limo are hit by a truck before they get to the honeymoon suite, they are never really married.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
This one's got a fork in it..........
- Status
Similar threads
