Is adoption concurrent with justification?
- Thread starter Puritanhead
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Yes, I think so. As you are justified in Christ, you are declared a Son of God.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
'Concurrent'? Are you asking if it is simultaneous? 
It is part of a miraculous prcoess. You cannot be adopted until that time you are justified. Hence, it follows justification.
[Edited on 5-13-2006 by Scott Bushey]
It is part of a miraculous prcoess. You cannot be adopted until that time you are justified. Hence, it follows justification.
[Edited on 5-13-2006 by Scott Bushey]
Puritanhead
Puritan Board Professor
Well my inclination has always been to say 'simultaneously'... but then I caught Romans 8:23... which says,
...groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons...
The way it's articulated by the Apostle Paul, it almost makes me think adoption is some future event like our resurrection
Nonetheless, we're predestined to be adopted. So, it might as well be considered a finished matter, and in that sense it was settled for God's flock before time immemorial and 2,000 years ago on the Cross at Calvary.
Then I catch Romans 8:15. I guess it seems like that here, but not here yet here tension to the nature of God's kingdom.
For any politicos, I feel like I'm reading Federalist #39 here, and I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth...
...groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons...
The way it's articulated by the Apostle Paul, it almost makes me think adoption is some future event like our resurrection
Nonetheless, we're predestined to be adopted. So, it might as well be considered a finished matter, and in that sense it was settled for God's flock before time immemorial and 2,000 years ago on the Cross at Calvary.
Then I catch Romans 8:15. I guess it seems like that here, but not here yet here tension to the nature of God's kingdom.
For any politicos, I feel like I'm reading Federalist #39 here, and I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth...
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Ryan,Originally posted by Puritanhead
Well my inclination has always been to say 'simultaneously'... but then I caught Romans 8:23... which says,
...groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons...
The way it's articulated by the Apostle Paul, it almost makes me think adoption is some future event like our resurrection
Nonetheless, we're predestined to be adopted. So, it might as well be considered a finished matter, and in that sense it was settled for God's flock before time immemorial and 2,000 years ago on the Cross at Calvary.
Then I catch Romans 8:15. I guess it seems like that here, but not here yet here tension to the nature of God's kingdom.
For any politicos, I feel like I'm reading Federalist #39 here, and I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth...
I believe we are adopted, being adopted and will be fully adopted at glorification; This is what I believe Paul means.
Puritanhead
Puritan Board Professor
Sheesh... Why couldn't I think of that? -- I've articulated that we are fully sanctified at glorification in a sermon before.
Duooh!!!
I thought about it with respect to the ordo salutis in terms of logical priority. Are we not simultaneously adopted even as we are declared righteous? Justification, after all, is that we are found in Christ and identified with Him.Originally posted by Scott Bushey
'Concurrent'? Are you asking if it is simultaneous?
It is part of a miraculous prcoess. You cannot be adopted until that time you are justified. Hence, it follows justification.
If the original question is with respect to time then they occur simultaneously. Logical priority is debatable but, again, I just can't see separating being in Christ and being adopted by God. I'm not trying to conflate the two but I can't see separating them on a logical priority line either.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Rich,
This is my thinking: justification and adoption are two different things. The ordo is just that, an order. Orders are segments of a process, even if they be Godseconds or nanoseconds. If there be an order or segments, they cannot be simultaneous. I will agree that in conversion, adoption would seem to be instantaneous. One could not be converted and not adopted. This mystery belongs to Him who makes time.
This is my thinking: justification and adoption are two different things. The ordo is just that, an order. Orders are segments of a process, even if they be Godseconds or nanoseconds. If there be an order or segments, they cannot be simultaneous. I will agree that in conversion, adoption would seem to be instantaneous. One could not be converted and not adopted. This mystery belongs to Him who makes time.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Romans 8:29-30 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
Scott - I am not saying I disagree with the orthodox ordo salutis. My question as more to do with God's view, not ours. Romans 8:29-30 tells waht God has done, but does it necessarily follow that He acted in a process fashion? In the infinite mind of God are parts equal to the whole without fitting into a linear timeframe?
Just asking.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
If not linear, then what? Chance? Disorginization? Confusion? Everything that happens to men is inside of time. God may act outside of time, but it effects us inside. As well, As far as God acting in a proceesed fashion, has He not done this throughout the scriptures? God created the heavens and the earth in 6 days and rested on the seventh. Time and process.
C. Matthew McMahon
Christian Preacher
The WCF, rightly I think, separates justification and adoption into two sections.
WrittenFromUtopia
Puritan Board Graduate
John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God
Puritanhead
Puritan Board Professor
Originally posted by SemperFideles
I thought about it with respect to the ordo salutis in terms of logical priority. Are we not simultaneously adopted even as we are declared righteous? Justification, after all, is that we are found in Christ and identified with Him.Originally posted by Scott Bushey
'Concurrent'? Are you asking if it is simultaneous?
It is part of a miraculous prcoess. You cannot be adopted until that time you are justified. Hence, it follows justification.
If the original question is with respect to time then they occur simultaneously. Logical priority is debatable but, again, I just can't see separating being in Christ and being adopted by God. I'm not trying to conflate the two but I can't see separating them on a logical priority line either.
As Monergism.com reports, "In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)" Adoption isn't included in that version of the ordo, but Redemption Accomplished and Applied by John Murray makes mention of it, I believe.
Justification, is in a sense a timeless event, because it goes back to the Cross, and regeneration is where the application of Christ's meritous work is made to the believer, and are accounts are settled with a just God who demands justice.
Puritanhead
Puritan Board Professor
As does the London Confession...
Puritanhead
Puritan Board Professor
I didn't vote by the way in this poll... My inclination is to affirm what Scott said now.
Precisely Scott. Thank you for clarifying that I meant to write that God does it all by chance in a disorganized and confused way.
I quite agree. My point was not to conflate the two as identical concepts but I'm just not certain that one has logical priority. I'm just thinking out loud that we are declared righteous because we are clothed in Christ. If we are in Christ are we not also adopted?
Two different issues for sure but is the basis for our justification also that we are identified with Christ and, if so identified, are we not adopted? It may even be possible to argue that we are adopted before we are justified since Christ's covering is the basis for justification.
Of course, I am not so confident in the position that I'll die on that hill...which is why I'm talking it all out.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Originally posted by SemperFideles
Precisely Scott. Thank you for clarifying that I meant to write that God does it all by chance in a disorganized and confused way.
I quite agree. My point was not to conflate the two as identical concepts but I'm just not certain that one has logical priority. I'm just thinking out loud that we are declared righteous because we are clothed in Christ. If we are in Christ are we not also adopted?
Two different issues for sure but is the basis for our justification also that we are identified with Christ and, if so identified, are we not adopted? It may even be possible to argue that we are adopted before we are justified since Christ's covering is the basis for justification.
Of course, I am not so confident in the position that I'll die on that hill...which is why I'm talking it all out.
Rich,
Please forgive me if my post was offensive. It was not meant that way. As I read your post, I started thinking out loud and typing. I have this bad habit of just hitting keys. I was just mentally addressing the other treatments left up for grabs in contrast to 'linear'. I believe my response was to Bill actually. Bill, no offense intended.
Sorry bout that.
[Edited on 5-15-2006 by Scott Bushey]
Thanks Brother. Forgive me too. It is Monday AM and I checked this at 0520 before I left for work this AM. I was a bit groggy and irritable at the time.Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Originally posted by SemperFideles
Precisely Scott. Thank you for clarifying that I meant to write that God does it all by chance in a disorganized and confused way.
I quite agree. My point was not to conflate the two as identical concepts but I'm just not certain that one has logical priority. I'm just thinking out loud that we are declared righteous because we are clothed in Christ. If we are in Christ are we not also adopted?
Two different issues for sure but is the basis for our justification also that we are identified with Christ and, if so identified, are we not adopted? It may even be possible to argue that we are adopted before we are justified since Christ's covering is the basis for justification.
Of course, I am not so confident in the position that I'll die on that hill...which is why I'm talking it all out.
Rich,
Please forgive me if my post was offensive. It was not meant that way. As I read your post, I started thinking out loud and typing. I have this bad habit of just hitting keys. I was just mentally addressing the other treatments left up for grabs in contrast to 'linear'. I believe my response was to Bill actually. Bill, no offense intended.
Sorry bout that.
After praying in the early morning I like to do a quick check of e-mail and see what, if any, new posts are on the PB. Isn't that funny?
Puritan Sailor
Puritan Board Doctor
Turretin has a good couple chapters on adoption in his Institutes (also in the book Justification). He includes adoption as a part of Justification, and the result of the imputation of Christ's righteousness. According to him, justification consists in two parts, remission of sin, and the right to life (which he calls adoption). The remission of sin refers to the full forgivness granted to us in Christ. The "right to life" refers to the right to the inheritance we are granted now that we are heirs. We have obtained the promised reward of perfect obedience to the law because Christ perfectly obeyed for us and obtained that reward of sonship for us.
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