N. Eshelman
Puritan Board Senior
Last evening at my house a group of us had a great discussion of 'wives' as 'women' in I Timothy 3. We talked about women deacons and our thoughts on them.
So what do you think?
So what do you think?
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#3
I think it can be #2, but not necessarily. Being unbiblical, it ought to be rejected.
No one has ever been able, nor will they be, to explain how someone can be set apart to lead in an area of ministry (mercy and service) without having authority (contra to 1 Tim 2:12). If someone can do that ministry without authority, they don't need ordination.
It is a no brainer.
No one has ever been able, nor will they be, to explain how someone can be set apart to lead in an area of ministry (mercy and service) without having authority (contra to 1 Tim 2:12). If someone can do that ministry without authority, they don't need ordination.
It is a no brainer.
I don't know the answer to the thread's question myself, but I have to admit what you say isn't a "no-brainer" to me. I never assumed deacons had authority over anyone. For instance, angels have the position of serving humans but they don't have authority over us. I'm probably just confused because I have never really thought it through before. Also people in the past had servants but the default isn't usually to think that the servants hold a position of authority over those they serve. Of course, Jesus said leaders should be like servants, but that wouldn't prove all servants are leaders.
Women are not given the office of deacon in the Scripture. However, there is evidence that women served in a role very similar to that of the male deacons in the church. While I believe women do not have the authoritative role in the church, I do think it is a grave error to assume that because women have no authority in that area that they are somehow incapable of serving in the church or that they shouldn't be serving in the church.
Too often leaders who are very correct in saying that women have no leadership role in the church make the mistake of cutting women out of ministry all together. In my humble opinion that is as sinful as a woman serving as a pastor.
I did speak quickly on this. But here is the point. It is not the service itself that is the issue. All Christians are called to mercy ministry. All Christians are called to service. But Acts 6 presumes that someone is directing that effort. The person who directs is called a deacon. If the deacon did not have authority over those involved in the mercy ministry, we would have to suppose that no one but deacons could perform mercy ministry. Otherwise, why even have deacons?
The short answer is that the ordained, elected, authoritative office of Deacon per I Timothy 3 is for men only.
Ecclesiastical authoritative office, in accordance with Scripture and the priority in Creation, is for men only. It is contrary to Scripture for women to exercise ecclesiastical authority over men or to be ordained for such authority.
It is the responsibility and authority of Deacons to oversee mercy ministry in the church in such a way as to involve women and men in mercy (diaconal) ministry. Those so involved are not ordained, elected and do not exercise authority.
In accordance with Scripture, it is necessary that women and men be involved in diaconal ministry. The office of "Deacon" is not confused with "diaconal" (mercy, servant) ministry. For example a paralegal does "legal" work but is not to be confused with an attorney. Even though the paralegal is necessary, knowledgeable, and capable she or he is not licensed, professional standards accountable, or Bar pass certified as is the attorney and is not "set apart" to "pass the bar" and practice law in court.
There is a nonauthoritative "office" of servant widow for women per I Timothy 5. It requires a widow, aged 60, a reputation for serving well, etc. This office is not ordained, or authoritative. It may, be supported (paid) by the church, and vows may be taken for it. It might be termed "deaconess" (my opinion would add if great care is taken to differentiate it from the authoritative office of Deacon.
It is not clear to me whether Scripture permits the office of "servant widow" is to be elected, I need to study that further.
The short answer is that the ordained, elected, authoritative office of Deacon per I Timothy 3 is for men only.
Ecclesiastical authoritative office, in accordance with Scripture and the priority in Creation, is for men only. It is contrary to Scripture for women to exercise ecclesiastical authority over men or to be ordained for such authority.
It is the responsibility and authority of Deacons to oversee mercy ministry in the church in such a way as to involve women and men in mercy (diaconal) ministry. Those so involved are not ordained, elected and do not exercise authority.
In accordance with Scripture, it is necessary that women and men be involved in diaconal ministry. The office of "Deacon" is not confused with "diaconal" (mercy, servant) ministry. For example a paralegal does "legal" work but is not to be confused with an attorney. Even though the paralegal is necessary, knowledgeable, and capable she or he is not licensed, professional standards accountable, or Bar pass certified as is the attorney and is not "set apart" to "pass the bar" and practice law in court.
There is a nonauthoritative "office" of servant widow for women per I Timothy 5. It requires a widow, aged 60, a reputation for serving well, etc. This office is not ordained, or authoritative. It may, be supported (paid) by the church, and vows may be taken for it. It might be termed "deaconess" (my opinion would add if great care is taken to differentiate it from the authoritative office of Deacon.
It is not clear to me whether Scripture permits the office of "servant widow" is to be elected, I need to study that further.
I understand I Tim 3. But what exactly is Phebe in Romans 16:1? Was she merely a "helper," or did she have diaconal authority in the church?
Our congregation is considering 4 denominations to possibly align with, with the ARP being one. However, the issue of women deacons is causing many on the session to veer away from the ARP.
The "correct" reply is "women deacons are biblical, and sometimes expedient. However cultural conditions may require the avoidence of this office for a brief time."
I understand I Tim 3. But what exactly is Phebe in Romans 16:1? Was she merely a "helper," or did she have diaconal authority in the church?
Our congregation is considering 4 denominations to possibly align with, with the ARP being one. However, the issue of women deacons is causing many on the session to veer away from the ARP.
Brother Fred, it is never a compromise to follow Gods word.
Brother Fred, it is never a compromise to follow Gods word.
Exactly. How I wish the American church would include 1 Timothy 2:12 in their Bibles. Maybe then there would be less effeminate hand-wringing, and more gospel defending.
Brother Fred, it is never a compromise to follow Gods word.
Exactly. How I wish the American church would include 1 Timothy 2:12 in their Bibles. Maybe then there would be less effeminate hand-wringing, and more gospel defending.
No one has ever been able, nor will they be, to explain how someone can be set apart to lead in an area of ministry (mercy and service) without having authority (contra to 1 Tim 2:12). If someone can do that ministry without authority, they don't need ordination.
It is a no brainer.
I don't know the answer to the thread's question myself, but I have to admit what you say isn't a "no-brainer" to me. I never assumed deacons had authority over anyone. For instance, angels have the position of serving humans but they don't have authority over us. I'm probably just confused because I have never really thought it through before. Also people in the past had servants but the default isn't usually to think that the servants hold a position of authority over those they serve. Of course, Jesus said leaders should be like servants, but that wouldn't prove all servants are leaders.
I did speak quickly on this. But here is the point. It is not the service itself that is the issue. All Christians are called to mercy ministry. All Christians are called to service. But Acts 6 presumes that someone is directing that effort. The person who directs is called a deacon. If the deacon did not have authority over those involved in the mercy ministry, we would have to suppose that no one but deacons could perform mercy ministry. Otherwise, why even have deacons?
The short answer is that the ordained, elected, authoritative office of Deacon per I Timothy 3 is for men only.
Ecclesiastical authoritative office, in accordance with Scripture and the priority in Creation, is for men only. It is contrary to Scripture for women to exercise ecclesiastical authority over men or to be ordained for such authority.
It is the responsibility and authority of Deacons to oversee mercy ministry in the church in such a way as to involve women and men in mercy (diaconal) ministry. Those so involved are not ordained, elected and do not exercise authority.
In accordance with Scripture, it is necessary that women and men be involved in diaconal ministry. The office of "Deacon" is not confused with "diaconal" (mercy, servant) ministry. For example a paralegal does "legal" work but is not to be confused with an attorney. Even though the paralegal is necessary, knowledgeable, and capable she or he is not licensed, professional standards accountable, or Bar pass certified as is the attorney and is not "set apart" to "pass the bar" and practice law in court.
There is a nonauthoritative "office" of servant widow for women per I Timothy 5. It requires a widow, aged 60, a reputation for serving well, etc. This office is not ordained, or authoritative. It may, be supported (paid) by the church, and vows may be taken for it. It might be termed "deaconess" (my opinion would add if great care is taken to differentiate it from the authoritative office of Deacon.
It is not clear to me whether Scripture permits the office of "servant widow" is to be elected, I need to study that further.
I understand I Tim 3. But what exactly is Phebe in Romans 16:1? Was she merely a "helper," or did she have diaconal authority in the church?
Our congregation is considering 4 denominations to possibly align with, with the ARP being one. However, the issue of women deacons is causing many on the session to veer away from the ARP.
The short answer is that the ordained, elected, authoritative office of Deacon per I Timothy 3 is for men only.
Ecclesiastical authoritative office, in accordance with Scripture and the priority in Creation, is for men only. It is contrary to Scripture for women to exercise ecclesiastical authority over men or to be ordained for such authority.
It is the responsibility and authority of Deacons to oversee mercy ministry in the church in such a way as to involve women and men in mercy (diaconal) ministry. Those so involved are not ordained, elected and do not exercise authority.
In accordance with Scripture, it is necessary that women and men be involved in diaconal ministry. The office of "Deacon" is not confused with "diaconal" (mercy, servant) ministry. For example a paralegal does "legal" work but is not to be confused with an attorney. Even though the paralegal is necessary, knowledgeable, and capable she or he is not licensed, professional standards accountable, or Bar pass certified as is the attorney and is not "set apart" to "pass the bar" and practice law in court.
There is a nonauthoritative "office" of servant widow for women per I Timothy 5. It requires a widow, aged 60, a reputation for serving well, etc. This office is not ordained, or authoritative. It may, be supported (paid) by the church, and vows may be taken for it. It might be termed "deaconess" (my opinion would add if great care is taken to differentiate it from the authoritative office of Deacon.
It is not clear to me whether Scripture permits the office of "servant widow" is to be elected, I need to study that further.
I understand I Tim 3. But what exactly is Phebe in Romans 16:1? Was she merely a "helper," or did she have diaconal authority in the church?
Our congregation is considering 4 denominations to possibly align with, with the ARP being one. However, the issue of women deacons is causing many on the session to veer away from the ARP.
The "correct" reply is "women deacons are biblical, and sometimes expedient. However cultural conditions may require the avoidence of this office for a brief time."
Women deacons are not biblical, and it is in itself a reason not to align with a denomination that compromises on that issue.