N. Eshelman
Puritan Board Senior
Last evening at my house a group of us had a great discussion of 'wives' as 'women' in I Timothy 3. We talked about women deacons and our thoughts on them.
So what do you think?
So what do you think?
Deaconess As Biblical Faithfulness
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Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
This is going to sound odd but I see deaconesses as faithful to Scripture but not necessary for Women's ministry. The leader of a women's ministry need not be a deaconess. I do believe it is necessary in some areas to have women deaconess's (what we in the ARP call "caretaker deacons") who can perform actions that men, by prudence, cannot.
As far as the "feminist" call, one need look no further than the RPCNA for proof that it is not always the case, though I grant likely.
As far as the "feminist" call, one need look no further than the RPCNA for proof that it is not always the case, though I grant likely.
No one has ever been able, nor will they be, to explain how someone can be set apart to lead in an area of ministry (mercy and service) without having authority (contra to 1 Tim 2:12). If someone can do that ministry without authority, they don't need ordination.
It is a no brainer.
It is a no brainer.
Presbyterian Deacon
Puritan Board Graduate
Perhaps not WILL lead to..but "GENERALY LEADS TO"
I voted:
"Women deacons show a denomination's feminist agenda and will lead to women elders"
While this may not always be the case, church history is full of examples of "denominational slides" where this has been the result. So it seems to be the rule and not the exception....
I voted:
"Women deacons show a denomination's feminist agenda and will lead to women elders"
While this may not always be the case, church history is full of examples of "denominational slides" where this has been the result. So it seems to be the rule and not the exception....
#3
I think it can be #2, but not necessarily. Being unbiblical, it ought to be rejected.
There is a hankering after a specific kind of recognition in ministry that drives this desire. The desire exists, ergo the Bible must be read in such a way that will open the way to fulfill that desire.
I think it can be #2, but not necessarily. Being unbiblical, it ought to be rejected.
There is a hankering after a specific kind of recognition in ministry that drives this desire. The desire exists, ergo the Bible must be read in such a way that will open the way to fulfill that desire.
Presbyterian Deacon
Puritan Board Graduate
Feminism is unbiblical.
Deaconesses are unbiblical.
Either way, it is unbiblical!!
I don't know the answer to the thread's question myself, but I have to admit what you say isn't a "no-brainer" to me. I never assumed deacons had authority over anyone. For instance, angels have the position of serving humans but they don't have authority over us. I'm probably just confused because I have never really thought it through before. Also people in the past had servants but the default isn't usually to think that the servants hold a position of authority over those they serve. Of course, Jesus said leaders should be like servants, but that wouldn't prove all servants are leaders.
I don't know the answer to the thread's question myself, but I have to admit what you say isn't a "no-brainer" to me. I never assumed deacons had authority over anyone. For instance, angels have the position of serving humans but they don't have authority over us. I'm probably just confused because I have never really thought it through before. Also people in the past had servants but the default isn't usually to think that the servants hold a position of authority over those they serve. Of course, Jesus said leaders should be like servants, but that wouldn't prove all servants are leaders.
I did speak quickly on this. But here is the point. It is not the service itself that is the issue. All Christians are called to mercy ministry. All Christians are called to service. But Acts 6 presumes that someone is directing that effort. The person who directs is called a deacon. If the deacon did not have authority over those involved in the mercy ministry, we would have to suppose that no one but deacons could perform mercy ministry. Otherwise, why even have deacons?
JBaldwin
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Women are not given the office of deacon in the Scripture. However, there is evidence that women served in a role very similar to that of the male deacons in the church. While I believe women do not have the authoritative role in the church, I do think it is a grave error to assume that because women have no authority in that area that they are somehow incapable of serving in the church or that they shouldn't be serving in the church.
Too often leaders who are very correct in saying that women have no leadership role in the church make the mistake of cutting women out of ministry all together. In my humble opinion that is as sinful as a woman serving as a pastor.
Too often leaders who are very correct in saying that women have no leadership role in the church make the mistake of cutting women out of ministry all together. In my humble opinion that is as sinful as a woman serving as a pastor.
I definitely hear you on that. Women should be in ministry - especially mercy ministry. All Christians should. Just not everyone should be ordained.
Mushroom
Puritan Board Doctor
Female deacons are not permitted by scripture, whether the desire for them is a sign of feminism or not is immaterial to me. Benjamite priests were also not permitted by scripture, would their desire to have them been called "benjamitism", or just the effects of the fallen nature and its proclivity for rebellion?
Well the way I had read Acts 6 previously was that it saying says that since the needy Greeks were getting the short end of the stick, all the disciples, both Jew and Greek were to gather together. The people were given the authority by the apostles to choose who would be their servants and serve them faithfully and fairly, since the apostles judged it to not be right that they themselves should wait tables at the expense of preaching the word and prayer. It sounded to me like the people tell the deacons who it is that needs something, and the deacons obey them. But... It does speak about management in the requirements of deacons elsewhere in scripture, so I think I can see what you were referring to. As far as the question you asked ("Otherwise, why even have deacons?") the way I would first read that is literally: Why have servants? or Why have table waiters? My first reaction is that the name implies lack of authority, not the fact of authority. They were originally to serve those who needed food. But I think I can now see how the other places where they are mentioned their duties encompass more than this. Thanks for your reply. Like I said, I just hadn't really thought about it much.
The short answer is that the ordained, elected, authoritative office of Deacon per I Timothy 3 is for men only.
Ecclesiastical authoritative office, in accordance with Scripture and the priority in Creation, is for men only. It is contrary to Scripture for women to exercise ecclesiastical authority over men or to be ordained for such authority.
It is the responsibility and authority of Deacons to oversee mercy ministry in the church in such a way as to involve women and men in mercy (diaconal) ministry. Those so involved are not ordained, elected and do not exercise authority.
In accordance with Scripture, it is necessary that women and men be involved in diaconal ministry. The office of "Deacon" is not confused with "diaconal" (mercy, servant) ministry. For example a paralegal does "legal" work but is not to be confused with an attorney. Even though the paralegal is necessary, knowledgeable, and capable she or he is not licensed, professional standards accountable, or Bar pass certified as is the attorney and is not "set apart" to "pass the bar" and practice law in court.
There is a nonauthoritative "office" of servant widow for women per I Timothy 5. It requires a widow, aged 60, a reputation for serving well, etc. This office is not ordained, or authoritative. It may, be supported (paid) by the church, and vows may be taken for it. It might be termed "deaconess" (my opinion would add if great care is taken to differentiate it from the authoritative office of Deacon.
It is not clear to me whether Scripture permits the office of "servant widow" is to be elected, I need to study that further.
Ecclesiastical authoritative office, in accordance with Scripture and the priority in Creation, is for men only. It is contrary to Scripture for women to exercise ecclesiastical authority over men or to be ordained for such authority.
It is the responsibility and authority of Deacons to oversee mercy ministry in the church in such a way as to involve women and men in mercy (diaconal) ministry. Those so involved are not ordained, elected and do not exercise authority.
In accordance with Scripture, it is necessary that women and men be involved in diaconal ministry. The office of "Deacon" is not confused with "diaconal" (mercy, servant) ministry. For example a paralegal does "legal" work but is not to be confused with an attorney. Even though the paralegal is necessary, knowledgeable, and capable she or he is not licensed, professional standards accountable, or Bar pass certified as is the attorney and is not "set apart" to "pass the bar" and practice law in court.
There is a nonauthoritative "office" of servant widow for women per I Timothy 5. It requires a widow, aged 60, a reputation for serving well, etc. This office is not ordained, or authoritative. It may, be supported (paid) by the church, and vows may be taken for it. It might be termed "deaconess" (my opinion would add if great care is taken to differentiate it from the authoritative office of Deacon.
It is not clear to me whether Scripture permits the office of "servant widow" is to be elected, I need to study that further.
R Harris
Puritan Board Sophomore
I understand I Tim 3. But what exactly is Phebe in Romans 16:1? Was she merely a "helper," or did she have diaconal authority in the church?
Our congregation is considering 4 denominations to possibly align with, with the ARP being one. However, the issue of women deacons is causing many on the session to veer away from the ARP.
Women deacons are not biblical, and it is in itself a reason not to align with a denomination that compromises on that issue.
She is a servant, like those in Matthew 20:26; Matthew 22:13; Matthew 23:11; John 12:26; Romans 13:4 (where the magistrate is called a "diakonos"). Was our Lord a deacon? Because just a few verses earlier (Romans 15:8) Paul writes:
le,gw ga.r Cristo.n dia,konon gegenh/sqai peritomh/j u`pe.r avlhqei,aj qeou/( eivj to. bebaiw/sai ta.j evpaggeli,aj tw/n pate,rwn(
namely, that Christ became a "deacon" (or more rightly, servant). Why would Paul change his use of the word in such close proximity, in such a way that also requires exegetical gymnastics around 1 Timothy 3:12 (how does a woman become the husband of one wife?) ?
I understand I Tim 3. But what exactly is Phebe in Romans 16:1? Was she merely a "helper," or did she have diaconal authority in the church?
Scripture doesn't give us much information about Phoebe. There is no mention of her husband and she is described as a "servant." She is commended for her faithfulness. It is quite possible she was of the "servant widow" type of I Timothy 5 and what is said comports with that (widow, faithful service).
If she was "merely a helper," that was important to God speaking through the Apostle Paul and she is commended for it. If she was of the servant-widow office there were specific qualifications, but again this is not the office of Deacon. There are other places where men and women are commended for faithful service...
What is unclear in Scripture is best resolved in favor of what is clear, which is that the office of Deacon is for men only, it has authority and that is rightly exercised over women and men.
Our congregation is considering 4 denominations to possibly align with, with the ARP being one. However, the issue of women deacons is causing many on the session to veer away from the ARP.[/QUOTE]
I believe there are many wonderful Christians in this denomination and that they get a lot right.
My understanding is that the issue of ordaining women to authority over men is is causing a lot of "undercurrent concern." It is also my understanding that most congregations in ARP do not ordain women deacons, many are opposed to it. In my opinion, the unresolved stance (let each congregation decide) will only build confusion and division and needs to be resolved for the peace and purity of the denomination... that's only an outsider's opinion.
Truly, I want you to find the option that would best help you as a congregation to Honor and Glorify God. There certainly are many very good ARP churches and God may be leading you to join and submit there, imperfections notwithstanding.
Scripture doesn't give us much information about Phoebe. There is no mention of her husband and she is described as a "servant." She is commended for her faithfulness. It is quite possible she was of the "servant widow" type of I Timothy 5 and what is said comports with that (widow, faithful service).
If she was "merely a helper," that was important to God speaking through the Apostle Paul and she is commended for it. If she was of the servant-widow office there were specific qualifications, but again this is not the office of Deacon. There are other places where men and women are commended for faithful service...
What is unclear in Scripture is best resolved in favor of what is clear, which is that the office of Deacon is for men only, it has authority and that is rightly exercised over women and men.
Our congregation is considering 4 denominations to possibly align with, with the ARP being one. However, the issue of women deacons is causing many on the session to veer away from the ARP.[/QUOTE]
I believe there are many wonderful Christians in this denomination and that they get a lot right.
My understanding is that the issue of ordaining women to authority over men is is causing a lot of "undercurrent concern." It is also my understanding that most congregations in ARP do not ordain women deacons, many are opposed to it. In my opinion, the unresolved stance (let each congregation decide) will only build confusion and division and needs to be resolved for the peace and purity of the denomination... that's only an outsider's opinion.
Truly, I want you to find the option that would best help you as a congregation to Honor and Glorify God. There certainly are many very good ARP churches and God may be leading you to join and submit there, imperfections notwithstanding.
Exactly. How I wish the American church would include 1 Timothy 2:12 in their Bibles. Maybe then there would be less effeminate hand-wringing, and more gospel defending.
Presbyterian Deacon
Puritan Board Graduate
That verse comes right after 1 Timothy 2:11 in my Bible, but I suppose many modern egalitarians don't like to read that either!
Kevin
Puritan Board Doctor
I am not a member of the American Church...
However it does seem to me that Saint Pauls warning to Timothy is that women should not "rule", not that they should not "serve".
I don't know the answer to the thread's question myself, but I have to admit what you say isn't a "no-brainer" to me. I never assumed deacons had authority over anyone. For instance, angels have the position of serving humans but they don't have authority over us. I'm probably just confused because I have never really thought it through before. Also people in the past had servants but the default isn't usually to think that the servants hold a position of authority over those they serve. Of course, Jesus said leaders should be like servants, but that wouldn't prove all servants are leaders.
I did speak quickly on this. But here is the point. It is not the service itself that is the issue. All Christians are called to mercy ministry. All Christians are called to service. But Acts 6 presumes that someone is directing that effort. The person who directs is called a deacon. If the deacon did not have authority over those involved in the mercy ministry, we would have to suppose that no one but deacons could perform mercy ministry. Otherwise, why even have deacons?
Fred, I understand your point about deacons having authority. The Scriptures restrict the office of sheperding and authoritative teaching (preaching) to men only. Yes, a person who serves has authority, but what kind of authority? Suppose for the sake of argument that the Scriptures do allow women to serve as deacons, their authority would not be the same as that given to elders. Paul certainly commands women to teach women in Titus 2 and we do have the example of women assisting Paul or Jesus in their ministry, but they are prohibited from exercising the kind of authority that is given to elders.
Randy, that is the question. Romans 16:1 calls her a servant and one who assisted in apostolic ministry. Paul uses the diakonon for the word "servant". The current debate on this issue is not whether women should assist in ministry or serve, but if they should be recognized and commissioned in some way as an office.
I am not being contrary on this Fred, but you and I are teaching elders in a denomination that has allowed congregations to elect deaconesses. So in your words you are algined with a denomination that compromises on that issue.
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