Is it "SIN" for women to teach men?

[Stratiotes]

I believe scripture is very clear on this issue. Eve was created to be a help meet for Adam. Man is the glory of God, and woman is the glory of man. We know this because God created man from dust, then He took from man to create woman. Just as Christ was submissive to God the Father, men are to be submissive to Christ, as He is the head of the of the church. Wives in the same way should submit to their husbands. Scripture is very clear on this issue in my opinion.

 

[Stratiotes]

So for a woman to teach in anything in church is sin. The older women should teach the younger women how to love their husbands. Anyone who teaches should be the head of their house, and have their house in order. This automatically disqualifies a women teacher. A woman teaching anything in church is not right, in my opinion.

 

[Loopie]

So for a woman to teach in anything in church is sin. The older women should teach the younger women how to love their husbands. Anyone who teaches should be the head of their house, and have their house in order. This automatically disqualifies a women teacher. A woman teaching anything in church is not right, in my opinion.

So even if there is a separate area for young children (infants and toddlers), a woman is not to teach them, even though it is within the context of 'church'? I am just curious as to the full understanding of your position.

 

[psycheives]

So for a woman to teach in anything in church is sin. The older women should teach the younger women how to love their husbands. Anyone who teaches should be the head of their house, and have their house in order. This automatically disqualifies a women teacher. A woman teaching anything in church is not right, in my opinion.

Dan, I think most all agree it is sin for a woman to teach/authority (as pastor or elder) in the church over men based on those bible verses. But what about outside church? I think this is the main concern. People are taking the bible verses into the "outside the church" context and to the "anything spiritual" context. Thanks for your thoughts on what is sin and not sin. Not "we prefer not" but "is it sin for a woman to lead a bible study in her home"? And if a man wants to join, should she refuse him?

 

[Mushroom]

Not "we prefer not" but "is it sin for a woman to lead a bible study in her home"?

No

And if a man wants to join, should she refuse him?

Yes.

My view, anyway.

 

[jgilberAZ]

I fail to understand how a woman providing a commentary/exposition/application of the Word in a Study Bible is not considered "teaching."

How is that not, in effect, leading a Bible study?

If only women read the notes written by women in this Bible, then there is no issue, in my opinion.
Otherwise, there is a problem, in my opinion.

 

[ZackF]

I fail to understand how a woman providing a commentary/exposition/application of the Word in a Study Bible is not considered "teaching."

How is that not, in effect, leading a Bible study?

If only women read the notes written by women in this Bible, then there is no issue, in my opinion.
Otherwise, there is a problem, in my opinion.

So as I man exercising headship if I happen to read those notes because I want to make sure what my wife is learning is solid then the author or me is sinning especially if I happen to learn something?

 

[ZackF]

If a woman wasn't allowed to teach in any situation then these excellent works would be out of bounds. And they are excellent.


http://reformedlafayette.com/home/w...Revelation/JF OT Q1 - Creation to Abraham.pdf


http://www.reformedfellowship.net/i...hap-pdfs/Grade-6-Gods-Unfolding-Prom-3-16.pdf


Of course the above works are meant for the training of Children. But those young in the faith would greatly benefit from them as some people who don't have much of a theological background would also.


Some of the best instruction I have gained has been from women. Heidi Zwartman has been used of God in excellent ways for me as she has posted on the Westminster Confession of Faith and other historical things. Especially when I was moderating another theological forum that was prone to have a tendency towards aberrant theology in the Confessional Church. She never assumed a place of authority but did gently guide me a lot and expose the truth behind our Confessional heritage. I praise God for her. I also believe that her note concerning Abigail's appeal and instruction to Nabal / King David should be noted. Men would be negligent of the gift God has given to us through women if we didn't listen to their counsel in many situations. We will also be held accountable for not listening to them and considering what they might bring us from God's word. This is not to say that it isn't sin for a woman to teach and hold authority over men in situations that St. Paul is referring to.

Don't forget St. Paul's admonition to teat the older women as mothers. I have greatly appreciated the older woman who have put me in my place a few times.

1Ti 5:2    The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity.

I too have learned a ton from Heidi over the years though I haven't recognized her contributions like you have other than the occasional "excellent point" or "amen" and I don't even know her. Furthermore I don't think she is sinning her nor are we from learning from her. I suppose some distinctions are important between teaching in the Church and parachurch. This board qualifies as the latter does it not? If so, can women teach men in parachurch situations like a seminary without it necessarily being sinful whether or not it is prudent?

 

[psycheives]

I too have learned a ton from Heidi over the years though I haven't recognized her contributions like you have other than the occasional "excellent point" or "amen" and I don't even know her. Furthermore I don't think she is sinning her nor are we from learning from her. I suppose some distinctions are important between teaching in the Church and parachurch. This board qualifies as the latter does it not? If so, can women teach men in parachurch situations like a seminary without it necessarily being sinful whether or not it is prudent?

Great point, Zack. Seminary IS NOT church. Bible study also is NOT church.

If a woman can be a teacher in the secular world over men (which can relate to spiritual life in some ways in the subjects of philosophy, law, ethics, etc), what about in the seminary teaching biblical languages, philosophy, history and yes, theology? (Not advocating women be hired to teach practical theology for pastors - woman have no experience and so should be unqualified to be hired in a subject they don't know about). But women GO to seminary. So this isn't "for pastors only". So my concern is "IS IT SIN"? If it's not sin, then leave it up to each individual seminary to decide if they wish to restrict it by ordained teachers or not, etc. But is it sin?

 

[Stratiotes]

First of all Eric I would like to thank you for serving our country. I meant that a woman shouldn't preach from the pulpit is all. Teaching children is fine in my opinion. I do not believe that a woman should lead a bible study with men in it.

 

[Andres]

But women GO to seminary. So this isn't "for pastors only".

Yes, women do go to seminary, but at most confessionally reformed seminaries, women are not permitted to enroll in MDiv programs.

 

[KevinInReno]

But women GO to seminary. So this isn't "for pastors only".

Yes, women do go to seminary, but at most confessionally reformed seminaries, women are not permitted to enroll in MDiv programs.

Just to piggy back, for instance Covenant Seminary in St Louis first off encourages the wives to take courses. In addition there is a healthy dose of women there for counseling degrees, both single and wives. Westminster West I believe does the same.

 

[Rom]

Sister, what do your elders think about this? You are firstly under their authority.

Personally, I think for a woman to exercise any authority over a man in spiritual matters is wrong. Would you allow a child to have spiritual authority over a man? That would be just as wrong.

Isaiah 3:12 -
As for My people, children are their oppressors,
And women rule over them.
O My people! Those who lead you cause you to err,
And destroy the way of your paths.”

I believe wholeheartedly that when women are in positions of authority over a man in spiritual matters then the church rapidly falls into error ( see Isaiah above ).

I do think the sin is primarily on the portion of the men who allow this to happen. The elders of the church for not providing the spiritual instruction that their sheep require. Otherwise the women would probably be content and not see a need to step in.

Certainly for a woman to be educating grown men to be would be pastors in theology seems horribly out of whack. What has happened here?

 

[Free Christian]

I left a church that has a woman elder as most here will know. The minster there even agreed that is was wrong but still allowed it! Sad but true fact that many men today are not stepping up in the churches to fill the roles that should be filled by them. I once went to a church and then out came the women preacher, I got up and left. My sister once taught religious instruction to primary school children. She is a good Christian and knows the truth, which she taught to them. No-one else would do it in the small country area she lives in. They were taught soundly by her. It was good to know those children were taught well and heard the truth rather than some of the wish wash that abounds these days.

 

[KevinInReno]

Sister, what do your elders think about this? You are firstly under their authority.

Personally, I think for a woman to exercise any authority over a man in spiritual matters is wrong. Would you allow a child to have spiritual authority over a man? That would be just as wrong.

Isaiah 3:12 -
As for My people, children are their oppressors,
And women rule over them.
O My people! Those who lead you cause you to err,
And destroy the way of your paths.”

I believe wholeheartedly that when women are in positions of authority over a man in spiritual matters then the church rapidly falls into error ( see Isaiah above ).

I do think the sin is primarily on the portion of the men who allow this to happen. The elders of the church for not providing the spiritual instruction that their sheep require. Otherwise the women would probably be content and not see a need to step in.

Certainly for a woman to be educating grown men to be would be pastors in theology seems horribly out of whack. What has happened here?

With your last comment I wanted to provide further clarity if you thought that I was saying women were teaching future Pastors... I was referring solely to women enrolled in those seminaries, for certain degrees. There are no women on the faculty of any of the reformed seminaries in the US that I know of.

(maybe you were referencing someone elses comment however.)

I would immediately leave any church polity that allowed for a woman to become an elder. It would be the canary in the coal mine moment for me.

 

[jandrusk]

Per Chapter 25 of the WCF, the visible church is made up of all members of the body of Christ who profess the true religion(to paraphrase). So the only way you get outside of the church would be to teach those that are not members of the visible church, which I don't think would make sense in relation to the context of this discussion.

 

[Rom]

I wasn't referencing your comment at all

Sister, what do your elders think about this? You are firstly under their authority.

Personally, I think for a woman to exercise any authority over a man in spiritual matters is wrong. Would you allow a child to have spiritual authority over a man? That would be just as wrong.

Isaiah 3:12 -
As for My people, children are their oppressors,
And women rule over them.
O My people! Those who lead you cause you to err,
And destroy the way of your paths.”

I believe wholeheartedly that when women are in positions of authority over a man in spiritual matters then the church rapidly falls into error ( see Isaiah above ).

I do think the sin is primarily on the portion of the men who allow this to happen. The elders of the church for not providing the spiritual instruction that their sheep require. Otherwise the women would probably be content and not see a need to step in.

Certainly for a woman to be educating grown men to be would be pastors in theology seems horribly out of whack. What has happened here?

With your last comment I wanted to provide further clarity if you thought that I was saying women were teaching future Pastors... I was referring solely to women enrolled in those seminaries, for certain degrees. There are no women on the faculty of any of the reformed seminaries in the US that I know of.

(maybe you were referencing someone elses comment however.)

I would immediately leave any church polity that allowed for a woman to become an elder. It would be the canary in the coal mine moment for me.

 

[jgilberAZ]

Would this be a correct summary?

It's not okay for a woman to teach men in a Bible Study.
But, it is okay for a woman to teach men in a Study Bible.

Is that what I'm "hearing?"

 

[JoannaV]

With your last comment I wanted to provide further clarity if you thought that I was saying women were teaching future Pastors... I was referring solely to women enrolled in those seminaries, for certain degrees. There are no women on the faculty of any of the reformed seminaries in the US that I know of.

WTS has one woman lecturing in Old Testament. There was an old PB thread about it: http://www.puritanboard.com/f116/reformed-seminaries-female-teachers-78061/

 

[SinnerSavedByChrist]

Per Chapter 25 of the WCF, the visible church is made up of all members of the body of Christ who profess the true religion(to paraphrase). So the only way you get outside of the church would be to teach those that are not members of the visible church, which I don't think would make sense in relation to the context of this discussion.

Indeed I would encourage all women to share their faith with both men and women, old and young, white or asian. Obviously there is wisdom in this matter... the sister needs to guard her heart and be wary of her safety. But she is called, just like EVERY single believer, to tell from the rooftops the goodnews to anyone who would hear.

And inevitably, she will "Teach" the scriptures in some manner or form to unbelievers as she explains the Glorious gospel of our blessed God to lost males.

But once a man is converted and part of a local church - it would be most wise for her to immediately stop teaching him, but recommend this new believer to discipleship by faithful Men of the church.

 

[Mushroom]

People are gonna do what they want to do. But as Luther said somewhere, God changes our 'wanter'...

 

[sevenzedek]

Sin is too strong. It is wrong for women to preach - I would not remain in a service where the preacher was a woman. I was uncomfortable at London Bible College with female lecturers (never really sorted that one out) but could not bring myself to attend worship when women were preaching. To my knowledge I was the only one who held that opinion.

When "the weekly bible study" becomes "all female" through a dearth of men, should the women discourage men from attending because they feel inhibited from speaking?

Ironically one of the speakers I really want to hear at the Strange Fire Conference is Joni Eareckson-Tada. Call me a hypocrite if you want but I do notice her contribution is labelled "testimony".

I would hardly call you a hypocrite. Joni has a wonderful testimony and there is much we can learn from her.

 

[sevenzedek]

... Man is the glory of God, and woman is the glory of man. We know this because God created man from dust, then He took from man to create woman. Just as Christ was submissive to God the Father, men are to be submissive to Christ, as He is the head of the of the church. ...

The order is that of "who came first"—just as we are to give honor those who are older than us.

If there is no man in the household, the woman becomes the head of the household. How would that play out in missional circumstances where there is no man in the church house?

It is not the ideal for there to be no man in a household. In that case, would the woman take charge until a man comes to the house? It would seem so, but I am still working through such a theoretical situation.

 

[THE W]

ok..

It's amazing to see the situation in the garden of eden in genesis 3 play itself out again in today's society.

Men following in the footsteps of their cowardly first federal head adam in sitting idly by while the serpent of feminism entices women to disobey a clear and direct order from the LORD.

Men need to step up and play the role they are called to play by the LORD in leading the women and being head of the women. Bottomline, women are out of place because men won't take their place. the whole "well, there are no men to do it" excuse simply means that men are derelict of their duty in leadership. this should in no way be seen as a warrant for women to make it their duty to take up a man's role.

A women will take a leadership role that a man should have if there are no men to do it in the same way someone will have to walk or hitchhike the rest of the way to their destination if there vehicle breaks down on the freeway.

if the person took better care of their car they wouldn't be in such a situation and in the same way if men were trained up as they are supposed to in order to be leaders you would have no need for women to be taking over these roles.

I'm sure most of us know isaiah 3:12 and understand the context of that chapter. a nation given over to folly. some will say "well, men simply aren't being trained to do certain things that many women are able and willing to do. What then?" Folly leads to more folly, sin leads to more sin. Since men are derelict of their duty and not doing what they're supposed to do, women will then be forced to do what they're not supposed to do.

some will still say "well, there are many very talented and gifted women doing great things in the ministry. should we stop them from using their talents and gifts?" this issue has NEVER been about ability, it's about ROLES! the LORD gave men and women specific roles to play. Men are derelict in their leader role and women are rebelling against their submissive role. Women who bring up such an excuse are simply rebelling. Men must step up, and women must step down. Men lead, women help. those are the roles our LORD and Creator gave to men and women. this complementarianism is reflective of the relationship within the eternal Godhead between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Jesus, being equal to the Father, submitted fully to the leadership of the Father(phil 2:5-9) and the Holy Ghost submitted to the will of the Father and the Son(john 16:13-15). Men and women are different, distinct, yet equal.

I actually don't blame women for the feminist mentality that has grown over the decades and is now more prevalent then ever. The modern women is the result of circumstances due to either the cowardice or brutishness of men. Leadership and responsibility go hand-in-hand. Not to say that the folly of women should be overlooked, but that their folly is directly related to man's folly. When men behave like men, women will behave like women.



Just my bronze lincolns..

 

[ZackF]

But women GO to seminary. So this isn't "for pastors only".

Yes, women do go to seminary, but at most confessionally reformed seminaries, women are not permitted to enroll in MDiv programs.

Just to piggy back, for instance Covenant Seminary in St Louis first off encourages the wives to take courses. In addition there is a healthy dose of women there for counseling degrees, both single and wives. Westminster West I believe does the same.

This is a good thing. If I were a pastor I would want my wife to have had some training on being a pastor's wife.

 

[a mere housewife]

Randy, you are such a sweet friend, and have taught me a great deal. I was looking at my Charlie Brown book the other day and being so grateful for your kindness over the years; and your words are just another part of your kindness.

I do love the fellowship here and am always learning a great deal from all the threads I read with all the contributors. I hope it is not misunderstood as a disparagement of anything I value here to say that I think perhaps the kind of teaching and learning available in this setting is only an aspect of the fullness Scripture is speaking about -- it is less costly than the kind we are always doing with our lives. And I have found it much easier to learn the lessons here than the ones I am always struggling to learn day to day, from the lives of women whose examples I treasure. For me personally the discussion about women teaching in various settings is overshadowed by what seems to me a steep reality that it is easier to teach in some ways than in others. That's why I find the question of teaching positions for women in the secular realm more clear cut: there's more of a recognition that it's just a profession, it just means a person has specialised knowledge in a certain area. It doesn't mean they are godly daughter, wife, friend, sister, or mom. It doesn't mean they suffer well, love steadfastly, or persevere in daily trivialities of caring for others, even without any seeming reward. It doesn't mean they have a servant's heart. They may, but people who are learning that godliness from them don't also have to learn to be math or science teachers. The profession isn't a manner of life. But once the realm of seminary or Bible study is brought in, the *idea* of a 'teacher' blurs into that other 'manner of life' teaching (because of being in a spiritual, not simply a specialised knowledge, setting), and women are called to teach men in the manner of submission. Authority and position in that realm is a special form of serving the needs of those under authority -- leading by example, not lording it over -- to which which men are called. Hierarchy in the church (or in the home) undergoes an inversion in human ideas of glory and service, and a position of oversight or 'teaching' in those realms is far more comprehensive than a position in the secular realm.

 

[Stratiotes]

I think that it would benefit everyone to go to seminary. Because we are all supposed to preach the gospel. Yet God has ordained men to preach and teach to the body of Christ. Women are more easily deceived than men, and are the weaker vessels. I truly think this plays a part as well.

 

[JimmyH]

I'm surprised that this thread is still going. I didn't vote in the poll. The Scriptures speak plainly regarding this topic.