Giving In Worship

[bookslover]

I visited Village Seven PCA in Colorado Springs many years ago, and they had little velvet bags with two wooden handles to pass for the collection.

Yup. That's exactly what we've got.

 

[Grant]

I think I might be the only woman on this site.. and so feel free to take my sex into account. but it is my understanding that the tithe is an Old Testament law because the Temple was also the seat of "secular" government so it was like "paying taxes" as well as a spiritual offering..in the NT it is never taught, instead we are told to be "Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." There seems a lot of legalism in this thread.
My pastor also describes the collection as a part of our worship and I think it is.. but if we give out of a feeling of an "obligation " is it worship or "work"? I think most of us use 10% because it is a comfortable tradition and we take seriously the need to support our church and pastor .. My advise is if you are having a spiritual problem on the weeks you do not "tithe "put a dollar in the plate... but to feel bound by OT law is not worship it could almost feel like a requirement or law

Thanks for sharing and I hope you continue to weigh in on Threads. However, this thread really has nothing to do with The OT Tithe still being binding or not (I hold it is not binding, other than the general equity from that law). No one on this thread has expressed ANY form of legalism as of yet. See Post # 15, for my reasoning for using the vocabulary word “tithe”, which was NOT in an OT binding manner.

 

[Grant]

Grant Jones, R. Scott Clark has written on that topic:
Is the Offering an Element, a Circumstance, or Neither?

Nathan thanks for sharing. Personally my view is in line R. Scott Clark’s on this matter. I would love to use a lock box. (I do still see a solid biblical case to be made to give/collect as an element of worship). However, the purpose of my OP was “let’s assume it as an Element” as it is in the PCA and OPC. I am an ordained Deacon with my congregation and the collection being in the service is decided by my session. Further, we are making solid strides at reforming other areas of our church currently (using wine and singing psalms). As such, considering the great variety even among Reformation liturgies, I have been submitting and helping with collections in the worship service. I will likely be giving my own funds as @NaphtaliPress recommended.

 

[iainduguid]

I think I might be the only woman on this site.. and so feel free to take my sex into account. but it is my understanding that the tithe is an Old Testament law because the Temple was also the seat of "secular" government so it was like "paying taxes" as well as a spiritual offering..in the NT it is never taught, instead we are told to be "Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." There seems a lot of legalism in this thread.
My pastor also describes the collection as a part of our worship and I think it is.. but if we give out of a feeling of an "obligation " is it worship or "work"? I think most of us use 10% because it is a comfortable tradition and we take seriously the need to support our church and pastor .. My advise is if you are having a spiritual problem on the weeks you do not "tithe "put a dollar in the plate... but to feel bound by OT law is not worship it could almost feel like a requirement or law

It's a little more complex than that, but you are on the right track. If you want a fuller answer, you can check out my little ebook on the subject of tithing here:
https://www.amazon.com/Should-Christians-Tithe-Excelling-Giving-ebook/dp/B078SZ365X/ref=sr_1_19?

 

[Grant]

@iainduguid

How is money collected in your congregation? Is giving/collection viewed as an element in the ARP?

 

[iainduguid]

@iainduguid

How is money collected in your congregation? Is giving/collection viewed as an element in the ARP?

We receive it during the worship service, as an element of worship. But I understand and am sympathetic with those who think we should have a box at the back and remove it from the worship service altogether, on the basis of the lack of clear biblical warrant for it as an element of worship. Clearly some gifts were offered at the temple in some kind of receptacle, though others, such as sacrificial animals, would have be hard to fit on a plate or in a box. It was an act of worship, I think, at least in many cases. In the NT, apart from the fact that the offering was gathered weekly by the church (1 Cor 16 can't mean they set it aside personally, otherwise it would have to have been collected when Paul came, which is what this practice is intended to avoid), there is little detail on how precisely this was to be done.

 

[terry43]

No doubt he might have been a part of the still sound BPC there.. a wonderful body of believers

 

[bookslover]

. . .on the basis of the lack of clear biblical warrant for it as an element of worship.

Therefore, being adiaphora, it doesn't much matter when you do it or how you do it - as long as you do it. It's something the Lord leaves to each congregation's discretion and sanctified common sense.

 

[earl40]

The problem if that if the collection is an element of worship, and someone refuses to give during the time of worship are they subject to discipline? Now note when I say discipline I say it with admonition in mind, and not excommunication.

 

[Bill Duncan]

Interesting question, Earl, We have Elders who don't put anything in the plate.

The problem if that if the collection is an element of worship, and someone refuses to give at during the time of worship are they subject to discipline? Now note when I say discipline I say it with admonition in mind, and not excommunication.

 

[Grant]

The problem if that if the collection is an element of worship, and someone refuses to give at during the time of worship are they subject to discipline? Now note when I say discipline I say it with admonition in mind, and not excommunication.

Earl, this was basically my line of reasoning in the OP.

 

[JimmyH]

The problem if that if the collection is an element of worship, and someone refuses to give at during the time of worship are they subject to discipline? Now note when I say discipline I say it with admonition in mind, and not excommunication.

I am one of two deacons in my congregation so I see what people give, if it is check, not cash. As has been mentioned, this is sort of 'uncomfortable' in a way. That aside, my fellow deacon was very concerned because, to put it in his words, "Some people are not tithing."

Upon further discussion he amended that to 'not giving at all,' rather than the 10% stipulation. Our pastor has no idea who gives, how much, or who does not, and prefers that be the case. In terms of what to do with those who do not give ... My take is that it is a matter of the Spirit, and not something that deacons or elders can admonish individual believers over.

Pastors tend to dislike preaching sermons related to tithing/offering (unless they're on the radio) and we, the deacons, have encouraged our pastor to preach sermons addressing the duty of giving. Beyond that I don't see much we can do, it is a matter of the heart.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Stinginess in giving is something to be admonished appropriately when it is someway clear, but as James Durhjam pointed out (from an establishment pov c. 1658), that if Presbyterians insisted on a specific allotment of money from folks as the Congregationalist he was quoting insisted on (Thomas Hooker), the Presbyterians would have been immediately charged with tyranny and taking upon them the function of the state.

We find the Reverend Master Hooker,1 lays these two conclusions. [1] That the church is to stint her members, and determine the quota of their charity and freewill offerings, and that of herself. [2] That if after the deacon’s private diligence, this is not given in, he is to follow the action before the church. Although we think defect of charity in this respect a great sin and an offense, and may be justly reproved, and the person admonished that is defective palpably in that which is proportionable to his ability; yet that such a particular stint should be made by church power, and exacted under such certification, we cannot yet find to be warrantable. Although we give the magistrate that liberty, and where he exercises it not, we acknowledge mutual condescension may do much. And we are sure, that if any such like thing should be found in the Presbyterial way, it had been charged with tyranny, and encroaching on the place of the magistrate long ere now; yet it may be (when it is well managed) no great corruption in a church.
1. A Survey of the Sum of Church Discipline, (London, 1648), p. 57.​

 

[iainduguid]

The problem if that if the collection is an element of worship, and someone refuses to give at during the time of worship are they subject to discipline? Now note when I say discipline I say it with admonition in mind, and not excommunication.

The simple answer is no. If someone refuses to give at all, that would be worthy of pastoral exploration certainly. But if they didn't give one week because they had given a double amount the previous time, there is nothing to admonish. And if they didn't give because their conscience was in favor of giving outside the worship service, it would be like an EP person who respectfully declined to sing hymns (we've had that situation in our church, and had no qualms about it). They are not absenting themselves from worship, merely honoring their conscience, something we should encourage not rebuke.

More broadly, just because something is an element of worship doesn't mean that everyone has to do it every time we gather. Baptism and oaths are elements of worship but only occasionally included, as needed.

 

[Kinghezy]

For those whose churches have a collection during service, do they have way to keep it part of the rest of the lithurgy?

I feel like at mine, it ends up being sort of an announcement time while plates are being passed. Otherwise, I guess it would be an ackward couple minutes of silence. But it does not seem to fit with the rest of service to me.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

It's done fast at our church as we are small and about the only thing it affords is an occasion for some brief mood mus... I mean an offertory.

For those whose churches have a collection during service, do they have way to keep it part of the rest of the lithurgy?

I feel like at mine, it ends up being sort of an announcement time while plates are being passed. Otherwise, I guess it would be an ackward couple minutes of silence. But it does not seem to fit with the rest of service to me.

 

[Kinghezy]

the only thing it affords is an occasion for some brief mood mus... I mean an offertory.

A shame, no time for any ballet...

 

[Grant]

If you don't give until you get paid, that means that you are withholding half the money for a week. In that case, you should gross up your giving the second week to make up the time value of the money that you did not timely give to the church.

Now, in the current US economy, that would be minuscule, but in times of high interest rates (like the Ford - Carter economy) or if the economy hit a period of hyperinflation (Venezuela, Wiemar Germany, Mugabe's Rhodesia, etc), the adjustments might be significant.

 

[JimmyH]

In our congregation it takes place after the OT reading. The ushers approach the lectern, the pastor offers a prayer, the collection is taken. The congregation stands, we sing the doxology while the ushers return the collection plates back to the table in front of the lectern. Then the NT reading, followed by going before our Lord in prayer followed by the sermon. For me the offering does not seem out of place in terms of a worship service. OTOH, I'm accustomed to that practice in any, and every church I've attended.

 

[Edward]

A shame, no time for any ballet...

You've never gotten to see me having to dance around the babies in carriers, and walkers, and support columns, and sometimes folding chairs to get to the pew, passing the plate on one side of the column and then getting back to the other side of the post to pick up the plate coming my way....

 

[earl40]

The simple answer is no. If someone refuses to give at all, that would be worthy of pastoral exploration certainly. But if they didn't give one week because they had given a double amount the previous time, there is nothing to admonish. And if they didn't give because their conscience was in favor of giving outside the worship service, it would be like an EP person who respectfully declined to sing hymns (we've had that situation in our church, and had no qualms about it). They are not absenting themselves from worship, merely honoring their conscience, something we should encourage not rebuke.

More broadly, just because something is an element of worship doesn't mean that everyone has to do it every time we gather. Baptism and oaths are elements of worship but only occasionally included, as needed.

Reread your post and replace the word hymns with psalms in your example, and you will see it (the example) does not work, so far as EP goes.

 

[Kinghezy]

@Grant Jones I think I have seen that same look from my daughter as well.

 

[terry43]

The initial poster referenced his tithe as did a few other..

 

[Kinghezy]

The initial poster referenced his tithe as did a few other..

I was avoiding tithe and offering because of the old testament connotations. Grant addresses his use of the language tithe in https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/giving-in-worship.97433/#post-1190637. I think we are all saying the same thing. My church's bulletin has the oh so succinct "Worshipping God Through the Giving of Gifts".

 

[bookslover]

Many years ago, a friend of mine attended a black church. During the offering, there were two plates set up at the front of the church, near the pulpit. People walked to the front of the church and placed their offerings in one or both of the plates. One plate was for the general fund for the church's expenses, and the other plate was for the pastor's salary!

 

[Susan777]

I visited Village Seven PCA in Colorado Springs many years ago, and they had little velvet bags with two wooden handles to pass for the collection.

That’s what we use. At first I was afraid it was somewhat papist but it’s worked well for us. /sarc

 

[Edward]

That’s what we use. At first I was afraid it was somewhat papist but it’s worked well for us.

When I saw it, I thought it might be a Dutch thing.

 

[ZackF]

When I saw it, I thought it might be a Dutch thing.

I guess the Scotch would be too cheap to use velvet.

Catholics do often use baskets on a stick. It does prevent people from ignoring or spacing off and missing the plates like Ed was talking about.

 

[Bill Duncan]

Yea, and the sticks can be used to prod the drowsy.

 

[Grant]

Yea, and the sticks can be used to prod the drowsy.

That is the most appealing thing about the stick baskets for me as a Deacon! I wonder if they make one with a small taser on the end.... something reasonable like 12volts.