Shouting In Corporate Worship

[Ryan&Amber2013]

It seems Biblical to me. Why don't reformed churches typically do this? Wouldn't this be part of the regulative principle?

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/why-dont-we-shout-in-worship

 

[RJ Spencer]

In some reformed Baptist churches it is common place to yell out "amen!" if the pastor hits a point that you agree with. I'd never consider doing that myself, because I want to be certain that my worship is not self serving. I do not want people to focus on my shouting, but would rather they focus on the preaching of the Word. I've always been critical of the second great awakening for the same reason, it seemed to be mostly man centered.

 

[RJ Spencer]

It seems Biblical to me. Why don't reformed churches typically do this? Wouldn't this be part of the regulative principle?

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/why-dont-we-shout-in-worship

Also, Piper and desiring God can be charismatic at times.

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

In some reformed Baptist churches it is common place to yell out "amen!" if the pastor hits a point that you agree with. I'd never consider doing that myself, because I want to be certain that my worship is not self serving. I do not want people to focus on my shouting, but would rather they focus on the preaching of the Word. I've always been critical of the second great awakening for the same reason, it seemed to be mostly man centered.

Thank you for the reply. If something is Biblical though, it must be God-honoring and there must be a way to do it orderly.

 

[RJ Spencer]

Thank you for the reply. If something is Biblical though, it must be God-honoring and there must be a way to do it orderly.

Certainly. If the shouting comes from the Spirit, there is nothing wrong with it. More often than not the people shouting are doing it for an external reason. I have listened to many sermons that have caused me to weep, surely there is not much difference between a sermon that causes you to weep and one that causes you to shout.

 

[KMK]

As long as the congregation shouts in unison. Otherwise confusion arises.

 

[TylerRay]

Luke 4:33 "And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice"

That's the only Scriptural example of an individual breaking out in shouting during a worship that I can think of. Are there others?

Sure, there are Psalms (worship songs) in which we are called to shout. By all means, sing the Psalms with volume, with all your heart! But don't start hollering, spontaneously, in the middle of a worship service.

 

[iainduguid]

Thank you for the reply. If something is Biblical though, it must be God-honoring and there must be a way to do it orderly.

This needs some nuance. God requires his people to worship differently at different points in redemptive history. So, for example, he approved of atoning offerings in worship in the OT but would not approve of you doing the same now. Indeed, even in the OT, there are changes in worship (for example singing, which is not part of tabernacle worship and is part of temple worship. So we need a hermeneutic that allows us to determine which things carry over from OT to NT, and how. Some Reformed people function with an essentially dispensational hermeneutic when it comes to worship: OT worship is discontinued; what we do is NT worship. But a more Reformed approach would be to recognize that we are talking about a subset of OT law, and so would expect a threefold division: moral. civil and ceremonial. Some OT worship teaches us universal principles for all times and places (moral); some points forward explicitly to Christ (ceremonial) and some is a specific application of God's wisdom to the people of God under the Sinai covenant from which we may gather general equity principles (civil).

So where does shouting fit? The desiring god article makes the classic mistake of assuming that an OT practice is identical to what we do in our culture with a similarly named activity (people routinely make the same mistake with dancing). We shout at football games; so shouting in worship must be just like that. In reality, shouting in worship is a specific action, the human equivalent of sounding the trumpet (Ps 47:5; Josh 6:5). It has nothing to do with singing loudly or yelling "Amen". My personal theory is that it was an ululating cry of acclamation. I think it fits under civil law, so would be appropriate in cultures that express themselves in that form (I've heard it done by women in worship in South Africa, where it seemed very fitting). We'd have to ask if there is anything equivalent in our culture. But you can't just get from "The Bible says 'Shout to the Lord'" to "I need to shout this Sunday in my Caucasian Presbyterian church."

 

[Dachaser]

In some reformed Baptist churches it is common place to yell out "amen!" if the pastor hits a point that you agree with. I'd never consider doing that myself, because I want to be certain that my worship is not self serving. I do not want people to focus on my shouting, but would rather they focus on the preaching of the Word. I've always been critical of the second great awakening for the same reason, it seemed to be mostly man centered.

Pretty much amen done in all Baptist churches when a strong biblical point is made.

 

[earl40]

Would I be allowed to shout out heresy if I think such is preached?

 

[Tom Hart]

I seem to remember one ecclesiastical writer saying something about all things being done decently and in order.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

I seem to remember one ecclesiastical writer saying something about all things being done decently and in order.

If there were an Oscar for the Bible verse most sinned against by modern evangelicals, I have no doubt that 1 Corinthians 14:40 would win it.

 

[bookslover]

No shouting during the worship service! I want to be able to hear the sermon, which would be hard to do if some annoying and distracting shouting were going on.

This is even a question?

(Besides, we're the frozen chosen, so ain't no shoutin' goin' on.)

 

[Pilgrim]

Applause is also common in more broadly evangelical churches. It is probably more common than shouting these days. It's common to applaud following baptisms, "special music," and at other times, generally not during the sermon. I have to say that this bothers me more than shouting does, especially if its not shouting just for the sake of shouting rather than a genuine response to what is being preached. The accompanist playing the piano during "silent" prayer and communion is also more annoying to me than the occasional shout.

I've tended to encounter shouting in more rural churches, and even then its pretty rare today in my experience. I mainly encountered it at a "Sovereign Grace" Baptist Bible camp I used to attend.

I have the sense that shouting (by which I mean more than the occasional "Amen" that isn't that loud) was largely a thing of the past by the mid-20th Century, particularly in city churches. Reportedly, my Baptist grandfather was a bit taken aback by the shouting in rural Baptist churches when he retired and moved to the country in the 1960s. And he had lived in a city that was under 50,000 at that time, not some metropolis.

Shouting is common in black churches. I guess it's something you see in charismatic churches too, although shouting may be one of the least objectionable things they do.

All that being said, in some circles, abandoning shouting has basically been a sign of apostasy. I'm thinking of Methodists in particular. Once they abandoned that unseemly and primitive practice, they went liberal by and large. The "city" Baptist churches I mentioned earlier also tended to become liberal.

 

[Grant]

But you can't just get from "The Bible says 'Shout to the Lord'" to "I need to shout this Sunday in my Caucasian Presbyterian church."

Now my plans have been thwarted...darn

I always thought the CPC denomination was the Covenant Presbyterian Church.

 

[JH]

The posts in here thus far have been good points. Just to add my .02 cents, (and it could be the Baptist in me speaking) but I'm okay with the occasional 'amen' or whatever during the ministering of the word. That being said, I do not believe everything the minister says needs to be applauded or confirmed by the congregation. The means of grace that God uses in prophesying from the pulpit, is that insofar as the minister correctly interprets and rightly administers the word of God to the flock, it is as if God himself is speaking.

Something as serious as this should be treated with great respect and solemnity. As the apostle himself said in (1 Corinthians 14:40)

 

[Andrew35]

If there's shouting in your church, I probably will choose another. Makes me think of Ray Stevens and the Mississippi Squirrel Revival.

 

[Charles Johnson]

Just to add my .02 cents

Narrator: "So far, Jerrod had contributed only a hundredth of the typical cent quantity for those giving opinions, but he pressed on, undeterred."

 

[Ben Zartman]

The people in our church come from a wide variety of backgrounds, and the struggle to quell disorderly outbursts like applause at a baptism is real, and it is endless. More so as new ways to be disorderly keep being invented. Lately the fad to be quelled was everyone holding up a cellphone to video a baptism, as though their presence to witness a solemn and holy ordinance wasn't enough, and they needed a FB video to prove it. So last time the pastor took the time that he usually uses to admonish people not to clap and used to it to forbid cellphone use, at which everybody who had hands empty of phones promptly used them to applaud....sigh.
But more to the topic, I feel that the Reformed Baptist quirk of scattering "amens" into the middle of other's sentences is very disruptive, and in my church it takes many forms, from a discreet moo-ing or humming sound when someone's prayer takes a certain turn (..."we pray for Laura..." and it's like a herd of cattle mooing around you), to a "yes!" if the turn is of special concern. It drives me crazy, especially since it encourages the ex-pentecostals among us, and makes it impossible to concentrate during public prayer.
It would better serve decency and order if everyone kept their traps shut when it wasn't their turn and said "Amen" at the end.
As for shouting, wouldn't it have to follow the rules of the apostle for decency and order? that would mean everyone hollering only when it was his turn, and doing it in a language that could be understood, or having someone interpret his shouting.....it gets complicated. Better to follow Dr. Duguid's understanding of it, in my opinion.

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

I appreciate all of your answers. I am sensing a bit of being critical and of overlooking common ways to shout in an orderly way. If God permitted and wanted something to be done in corporate worship, even during a time of heavily regulated worship, then there must have been a way to do it honorably. How about after a song of praise the pastor says "let's give a shout of praise to God." Why and how would that be unbiblical and out of order? Happy Lord's Day!

 

[De Jager]

I seem to remember one ecclesiastical writer saying something about all things being done decently and in order.

This is what I was going to post.

 

[Ed Walsh]

I appreciate all of your answers. I am sensing a bit of being critical and of overlooking common ways to shout in an orderly way. If God permitted and wanted something to be done in corporate worship, even during a time of heavily regulated worship, then there must have been a way to do it honorably. How about after a song of praise the pastor says "let's give a shout of praise to God." Why and how would that be unbiblical and out of order? Happy Lord's Day!

In reading over the responses, the consenses seem that the idea of verbal acknowledgment of a truth that struck a chord in the hearer is at leas somewhat frowned upon. Perhaps the connotation of 'shouting' is being taken negatively. To me, shouting implies excessive volumes, which could be disorderly in some cases. But I have noticed that we laugh at the pastor's jokes. And in my church, there are often amens verbalized after the choir sings something edifying. Although a choir being edifying may be an oxymoron.

But the Apostle, while correcting disorderliness in the church, seems to accept verbal responses when light dawns on someone in the congregation. Possibly prayer time.

I Corinthians 14:16-17
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.​

But here's the ultimate expression of interacting with a sermon. This is what I'm talking about:

Nehemiah 8:5-6,8 [notice verse 8 which poroves that this was a sermon format]
5 And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people; (for he was above all the people and when he opened it, all the people stood up:
6 And Ezra blessed the Lord, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the Lord with their faces to the ground.
8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.​

One more example of something Paul longed to see happen in a worship service. This is what we need desperately to happen again.

I Corinthians 14:16-17
24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.​

May God again pour out His Spirit in our days. We could all use a little Holy Ghost disturbance now and again.

 

[Ben Zartman]

I appreciate all of your answers. I am sensing a bit of being critical and of overlooking common ways to shout in an orderly way. If God permitted and wanted something to be done in corporate worship, even during a time of heavily regulated worship, then there must have been a way to do it honorably. How about after a song of praise the pastor says "let's give a shout of praise to God." Why and how would that be unbiblical and out of order? Happy Lord's Day!

The things that we may do in worship are regulated by God's word. Paul writes in the pastoral epistles that we are to preach the word, read the word, sing, pray, and observe the ordinances (I realize there's debate about gathering an offering--if we're convinced it's commanded, we must do it. If we're convinced it is not, then we must not. I think it is, For what it's worth). All these must be done "to edification" and with "decency and order." If we do these in a disorderly fashion (for example, everyone praying out loud at once, like some charismatics do), we are in the wrong. Paul would rather speak five words that people can understand than give a whole discourse in an unknown tongue. Would you suggest we shout something in English? All together, holler "Hear, O Israel, the Lord your God is one God!" at the top of their lungs? Why not just say it, like the congregational response in some churches? (is that response within the bounds of the RPW?). It's hardly a spontaneous shout for joy at that point, which is kind of the idea I get of shouting--that you are so moved by something or other that a yell just wells up inside that won't be contained. But that sort of yell isn't in keeping with orderly worship or the RPW, so we're back to asking what has God required and how has He required it.

 

[Andrew35]

Not trying to be critical. I just tend to think indoor shouting in general is a bad idea. Granted, I have a very low noise tolerance threshold.

Come to think of it, I do wonder how many of the references to "shouting" in the OT actually refer to outdoor gatherings--festal and the like. Without looking it up, I would venture most?

 

[Jeri Tanner]

Psalm 96:12, “Let the field be joyful, and all that is therein: then shall all the trees of the wood shout.” Ok, the Hebrew word for shout, raman, is really translated “rejoice” in Psalm 96:12, as it is in many other places. It’s also sometimes translated as “sing” and also translated some other ways. I don’t think we’re meant to take it as a command to shout in public worship. It’s a word that stands for rejoicing and triumphing in the victory of God, and God’s people do this when they gather to praise and worship in spirit and truth.

 

[De Jager]

"let all things be done for edification"

 

[OPC'n]

I went to a Reformed Baptist church once a long time ago and all the women wore long skirts and no make and all the men shouted "amen" during the service. Super distracting and annoying. It was like a contest of who could say "amen" at the best part of the sermon. But this is what happens. When you let one person burst out "amens" all the time next thing you know another person starts doing it then another until you have chaos in worship. Show your gratitude for the truth you hear by living it in your daily life not by shouting "amen" in my ear.

 

[Tom Hart]

"Shout" can be taken in different senses. Which are we talking about? Joy? Anger? Ecstasy? A battle cry? Raising the voice to be heard over the din? More importantly, what does it mean in the Bible? (@Jeri Tanner has brought up this rather significant point.)

Consider the word "meditate" as employed in Psalm 1. What would be the immediate connotation of the word? Leaving aside the absurd notions of mystery religions, we would be apt to think of some sort of silent pondering. But that's not what it means, or, at least, not exclusively. Rather, we can understand the Hebrew to refer to vocalization, even singing. (I'm getting this from Michael Lefebvre's excellent book on psalm-singing.)

Let's be careful not to thrust our own conceptions upon biblical vocabulary.

 

[Tom Hart]

I went to a Reformed Baptist church once a long time ago and all the women wore long skirts and no make and all the men shouted "amen" during the service. Super distracting and annoying. It was like a contest of who could say "amen" at the best part of the sermon. But this is what happens. When you let one person burst out "amens" all the time next thing you know another person starts doing it then another until you have chaos in worship. Show your gratitude for the truth you hear by living it in your daily life not by shouting "amen" in my ear.

You'd see the same thing (and more) in Pentecostal churches. It's distracting and weird.

 

[jwithnell]

Shouting, as an outburst, seems inconsistent with the rest of scripture. But to speak heartily during responsive readings, reciting the creeds &etc. makes sense. That's what we do, and I generally feel "too loud" when visiting other congregations.