Women directing Worship Team

[Christusregnat]

Hello All,

I'm on a committee to study worship for our church, and wondered if anyone could provide biblical insight on the following situation:

We have a woman leading the "worship team" (pianist, flute, recorder, french horn). Her duties include choosing arrangements, organizing the schedule of players, and providing leadership to the musicians, one (at least) of which is a young man.

Also, we have a woman choosing the psalms and hymns.

My question is this. What, scripturally, ought to be the role of women in this situation? Should the pastor be choosing the hymns? Should the woman be directing and leading this team of musicians?

The only biblical example I can even find of such a situation would be that of "the sons of Levi", and so I wonder if this would be an appropriate role for women at all.

Also, on our worship committee, the pastor told us to make sure our wives were "involved" in the meeting, even though the committee legally consists of an elder, a deacon, and myself. Is this biblical? My thought is that only the men ought to be involved in providing leadership to the congregation, but he seems to be indicating that the wives of these men ought to be (albeit unofficially) involved in this leadership.

Thoughts?

 

[Davidius]

I am under the impression that women are merely prohibited from exercising the authority delegated to church officers.

 

[calgal]

Does the worship team report directly to the worship committee?

 

[Pergamum]

Does she have any sort of teaching authority or official leadership capacity in the church, or does she just play music?

 

[Davidius]

Does she have any sort of teaching authority or official leadership capacity in the church, or does she just play music?

It sounds like she's just dealing with getting the music together, not teaching or exercising the other authority of church office (discipline, administration of sacraments, etc).

 

[Pergamum]

yep, the church is safe from a feminist takeover I think.

 

[Davidius]

yep, the church is safe from a feminist takeover I think.

 

[Romans922]

Elders should determine what is said and done in worship (under the overall guidance of Scripture, remembering the RPW). This includes what songs/psalms are sung. Women should not lead in the public worship of God.

 

[JBaldwin]

Let me share from my own experience, because I am the music director in my church. Being a woman who believes in male leadership in the church, I have struggled with this a lot over the years. I knew from the time I was a teenager that God was calling me to be a church musician of some sort, and everywhere I have been since then, God has placed me a position where I am involved in some music leadership role in the church, many times without seeking it.

One thing that is absolutely clear in my mind is that a woman involved in this role must be under the direct authority of the pastor and elders. In many of the churches where I have served, I have not been allowed to choose any music other than the incidental music used in worship. In other churches, I have worked side by side with the pastor. He chose some of the music, I chose some of the music. Where I am currently serving, I choose all the music, but I always send the music to the pastor before any final decisions are made.

I take this responsibility very seriously, and I don't think that just being a good musician qualifies a woman (or even a man) for the role of music director. In addition to being a trained church musician, I am well-trained in the Scriptures, my pastor and elders know my doctrinal position and know that I am serious about making sure that everything that we sing in church is theologically and musically sound. The day I stopped being careful about what we sing would be the day they would ask me to step down.

In short, I don't believe that it is wrong for a woman to be a music leader in the church, but it is rare to find one who is called to that mininstry. I believe leadership should be open to women in that role and be willing to work with them. In many places I have been, I have been made to feel that I was out of place or trying to ursurp authority in spite of the fact that all I wanted to do was use the gifts God gave me under property leadership. I am very thankful for the church leadership I have now. They work with me, and I find it very easy to submit to their leadership.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

Elders should determine what is said and done in worship (under the overall guidance of Scripture, remembering the RPW). This includes what songs/psalms are sung. Women should not lead in the public worship of God.

 

[Pergamum]

If the piano player then is a woman, can she not lead the song in non-ep churches? This was not "leading" last time I checked, but was singing.

I am sure that the elders could give hymns to her to play. She is there in a servant role is she not? If the Trinity Hymnal or a sound source was used, then free selection within these confines would not introduce heresy (i.e. she picks from the hymnal and thus is kept within boundaries). If the pastor requests a hymn, is she going to committ a takeover and force Fanny Crosby on the people? It sounds like she is in a serving role and this doesn't seem a big deal.

 

[Romans922]

Wouldn't the piano player just be aiding the worship not leading? An elder is the one who should be leading worship (i.e. leading the congregation).

If the piano player then is a woman, can she not lead the song in non-ep churches? This was not "leading" last time I checked, but was singing.

I am sure that the elders could give hymns to her to play. She is there in a servant role is she not? If the Trinity Hymnal or a sound source was used, then free selection within these confines would not introduce heresy (i.e. she picks from the hymnal and thus is kept within boundaries). If the pastor requests a hymn, is she going to committ a takeover and force Fanny Crosby on the people? It sounds like she is in a serving role and this doesn't seem a big deal.

 

[matt01]

Elders should determine what is said and done in worship (under the overall guidance of Scripture, remembering the RPW). This includes what songs/psalms are sung. Women should not lead in the public worship of God.

Why can't the elders pick out the music, and make the arrangements? She could then be responsible to the elders for playing the music and helping to organize the other musicians. Or you could just get rid of the whole music team.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

Elders should determine what is said and done in worship (under the overall guidance of Scripture, remembering the RPW). This includes what songs/psalms are sung. Women should not lead in the public worship of God.

Why can't the elders pick out the music, and make the arrangements? She could then be responsible to the elders for playing the music and helping to organize the other musicians. Or you could just get rid of the whole music team.

That would not be a bad idea.

 

[mvdm]

I recall Rev. Patrick Edouard {URC} preaching that the Reformed Confessions did a good job of keeping heresy out of the front door, but today we so easily let heresy in the back door of church through the music.

The elders are responsible for supervising the flock in worship. If they want to consult some gifted musicians, fine, but the musicians should not be choosing the music that is sung. The pianist could choose the unsung offeratory, prelude, and postlude, but even there, the elders should be listening carefull to what song is being played. For example, if the pianist starts plunking out the tune of "In the Garden", an elder should gently counsel her after about the song selection.

As for worship teams, I always thought they were called elders.

 

[matt01]

...we so easily let heresy in the back door of church through the music.

The elders are responsible for supervising the flock in worship. If they want to consult some gifted musicians, fine, but the musicians should not be choosing the music that is sung.

My wife used to play piano for a PCA church that we were attending, and this is how it was done. She selected the music that was not sung, atmosphere/preparation music, everything else was selected by the TE.

 

[Pergamum]

If all songs are sung out of the Trinity hymnal I don't see it as lax if an elder does not micromanage the song leader over EVERY song.

 

[CDM]

I recall Rev. Patrick Edouard {URC} preaching that the Reformed Confessions did a good job of keeping heresy out of the front door, but today we so easily let heresy in the back door of church through the music.

The elders are responsible for supervising the flock in worship. If they want to consult some gifted musicians, fine, but the musicians should not be choosing the music that is sung. The pianist could choose the unsung offeratory, prelude, and postlude, but even there, the elders should be listening carefull to what song is being played. For example, if the pianist starts plunking out the tune of "In the Garden", an elder should gently counsel her after about the song selection.

As for worship teams, I always thought they were called elders.

The Reformed Confessions did a good job with keeping heresy out of the back door through music, too. See The Directory for the Public Worship of God - Of Singing of Psalms.

Of Singing of Psalms.

IT is the duty of Christians to praise God publickly, by singing of psalms together in the congregation, and also privately in the family.

In singing of psalms, the voice is to be tunably and gravely ordered; but the chief care must be to sing with understanding, and with grace in the heart, making melody unto the Lord.

That the whole congregation may join herein, every one that can read is to have a psalm book; and all others, not disabled by age or otherwise, are to be exhorted to learn to read. But for the present, where many in the congregation cannot read, it is convenient that the minister, or some other fit person appointed by him and the other ruling officers, do read the psalm, line by line, before the singing thereof.​

In fact, this model guarantees no heresy be offered up in the guise of worship to God.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

...we so easily let heresy in the back door of church through the music.

The elders are responsible for supervising the flock in worship. If they want to consult some gifted musicians, fine, but the musicians should not be choosing the music that is sung.

My wife used to play piano for a PCA church that we were attending, and this is how it was done. She selected the music that was not sung, atmosphere/preparation music, everything else was selected by the TE.

The TE should be organizing the Worship so that the psalms/hymns point to and develop a coherent message that builds up to and is concurrent with the Sermon.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

I recall Rev. Patrick Edouard {URC} preaching that the Reformed Confessions did a good job of keeping heresy out of the front door, but today we so easily let heresy in the back door of church through the music.

The elders are responsible for supervising the flock in worship. If they want to consult some gifted musicians, fine, but the musicians should not be choosing the music that is sung. The pianist could choose the unsung offeratory, prelude, and postlude, but even there, the elders should be listening carefull to what song is being played. For example, if the pianist starts plunking out the tune of "In the Garden", an elder should gently counsel her after about the song selection.

As for worship teams, I always thought they were called elders.

The Reformed Confessions did a good job with keeping heresy out of the back door through music, too. See The Directory for the Public Worship of God - Of Singing of Psalms.

Of Singing of Psalms.

IT is the duty of Christians to praise God publickly, by singing of psalms together in the congregation, and also privately in the family.

In singing of psalms, the voice is to be tunably and gravely ordered; but the chief care must be to sing with understanding, and with grace in the heart, making melody unto the Lord.

That the whole congregation may join herein, every one that can read is to have a psalm book; and all others, not disabled by age or otherwise, are to be exhorted to learn to read. But for the present, where many in the congregation cannot read, it is convenient that the minister, or some other fit person appointed by him and the other ruling officers, do read the psalm, line by line, before the singing thereof.​

In fact, this model guarantees no heresy be offered up in the guise of worship to God.

 

[matt01]

...we so easily let heresy in the back door of church through the music.

The elders are responsible for supervising the flock in worship. If they want to consult some gifted musicians, fine, but the musicians should not be choosing the music that is sung.

My wife used to play piano for a PCA church that we were attending, and this is how it was done. She selected the music that was not sung, atmosphere/preparation music, everything else was selected by the TE.

The TE should be organizing the Worship so that the psalms/hymns point to and develop a coherent message that builds up to and is concurrent with the Sermon.

Exactly. This would eliminate many of the problems. I recall speaking with a lady who worked for a music school in southern California, and she was telling me how churches would call the school for musicians to play at their churches, everything from regular services to special theme services. Often musicians would be sent who were known drug users, or profaners, but they could provide wonderful music during the service. Too bad the churches didn’t consider them as part of the mission field.

 

[ChristopherPaul]

If the piano player then is a woman, can she not lead the song in non-ep churches? This was not "leading" last time I checked, but was singing.

I lean towards the view that yes women playing piano in church are leading the congregation in song. Her playing is what is followed to maintain correct tune. I don't think women should lead worship in this capacity, but then again, I also believe there should be no instruments at all (other than vocal chords) leading the congregation in song.

 

[py3ak]

Wouldn't a more fundamental question be, "what justification is there for a worship team"? And then, "what justification is there for creating a certain mood"? And then, "what need is there for arrangements?"

 

[uberkermit]

Wouldn't a more fundamental question be, "what justification is there for a worship team"? And then, "what justification is there for creating a certain mood"? And then, "what need is there for arrangements?"

Aside from the worship team, one could ask "What justification is there for a worship leader?" Given the importance that the worship leader is given in Western churches, one would think that it must be Biblical; Yet we see no mention of such an office in Romans 12 or 1 Corinthians 12 or Ephesians 4. Personally, I find this omission by the Apostle Paul to be significant.

 

[staythecourse]

If we are able to use the OT as an example regarding which gender can lead another, the word has men leading men and women but women only leading women.

Miriam went out with the women (a woman leading women)
David told the men and women to praise the Lord (Man leading men and women)

In the NT we have
Jesus leading the men in singing. (Man leading Men)

Are there others I am missing? Are their examples of women leading men in the OT? The NT has none I am almost certain.

 

[panta dokimazete]

What if no man wants to/will lead?

 

[Anton Bruckner]

If we are able to use the OT as an example regarding which gender can lead another, the word has men leading men and women but women only leading women.

Miriam went out with the women (a woman leading women)
David told the men and women to praise the Lord (Man leading men and women)

these weren't formal worship services. There were more like spontaneous praise brought on by witnessing the immediate victory of God over the enemy. This is akin to what happens when Jesus healed the leaper and blind and told them not to tell anyone and they immediately went out an broadcasted it.

 

[Christusregnat]

Hello All,

Quite a lively discussion to this point in time.

Thank you for all of your input!

I am a bit skeptic about the "worship team" idea, and this may come up in the committee.

Also, we are attempting to move toward more Psalms and more Scripture in church singing, but as it stands, there are often very sappy songs sung, and some that make me wonder. For example, some portray a very feminine feel (e.g. Jesus is my boyfriend), which I don't find in Scripture. No need to mention the church as Jesus' bride; I know that. But the air I breathe from Scripture seems to be much more... manly?

Anywho, I'm thankful for all of the thoughts, and am interested in more, if anyone has more to add.

God bless, and thank you all!

Adam

 

[Anton Bruckner]

where do we even get the precedent for a worship team? There is no such in the NT. The only thing that can be properly deduced is that the Pastors and the Elders fulfilling the function as a part of corporate worship. In my old church (charismatic) I was the keyboard player. From this experience I can tell that I and the members on the worship team had no business leading the congregation in worship, and it wasn't because we weren't good at singing and playing either.

 

[mvdm]

What if no man wants to/will lead?

If there are no elders or pastors, then this isn't even a church and the issue of "worship leaders" is a non-sequiter.

If there are elders and pastors and none of them want to/will lead, then there is a deeper spiritual problem that needs to be addressed.