Women 'Leading' in Public Worship

[Romans922]

There have been a couple threads here about women reading the Scriptures in Public Worship lately. I had thoughts about this or questions at least:

1) Is reading the Scriptures an act of Leading (where one would be leading both men/women)?

A) If so, is reading the Scripture because it is an act of leading, an act of authority (see 1 Ti. 2) and thereby contrary to Scripture?
​

2) Is the singing of Psalms, Hymns, Spiritual Songs (use of the language is so that no one is offended, EP or non-EP) to be done by the Pastor, elder, or can it be done by anyone?

3) Is a woman who 'leads' in singing considered leading the congregation?

A) If so, is a woman 'leading' in worship, an act of authority (see 1 Ti. 2) and thereby contrary to Scripture?

B) If so (to question 3), if you were in the OPC or the PCA (where I know this happens) how would you respond to women 'leading'?
​

1. I would argue no, simply reading the Word (without any editorial comments) is not exhibiting authority. Incidentally, women reading Scripture in corporate worship is allowed in the PCA BCO.

Mason,

You have brought this up before somewhere I think. But this is incorrect.

BCO 50-1 - The public reading of the Holy Scriptures is performed by the minister as God’s servant...

BCO 50-2 - The reading of the Holy Scriptures in the congregation is a part of the public worship of God and should be done by the minister or some other person.

You would say that opens it up for anyone to read Scripture. But you have to take things in context and the Church must follow her constitution (WLC). SEE this post here






Consequently, as it has to do with the context, if you think about it women cannot according to the BCO read God's Word. Why? BCO 50-1, "The public reading of the Holy Scriptures is performed by the minister as God’s servant. Through it God speaks most directly to the congregation..."


Ask yourself the question, "If God speaks to you is it authoritative?" If so, when one reads Scripture, as it goes on to say when one preaches as well, God speaks most directly and if it is with authority then the one reading has authority over those who are hearing.

 

[Rev. Todd Ruddell]

I believe the duty of edifying the Church belongs to the Pastors and teachers in our day. This is not to speak against what does and should take place as private exhortation and edification between members, but to edify the Church *as* the Church is part of the office the Lord has given to ministers. See the quotation from Ephesians 4.11-12

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

With all due respect to others who have posted earlier in this thread, I do not believe the Pastor had the authority to call the lady forward to edify the Church. He might have taken her sentiments himself and spoken them to the congregation--that would have been in order, and in keeping with the passage above. However, to introduce alternate authorities into the public worship service is unwise, and against the direction of the Apostle. Whether he realized it or not, the Pastor authorized another authority in the Church that day. I'm confident that at least some in the congregation were rendered more forward by this circumstance to speak to this lady privately to counsel with her, etc. perhaps even to the exclusion of their pastor. It would not surprise me to learn that she grew in the esteem of the congregation to the point of being an unofficial leader in some sense--this is what the Apostle is avoiding in 1 Timothy 2.9ff. The very act of addressing the congregation in the public sense is an authoritative act.

 

[ColdSilverMoon]

There have been a couple threads here about women reading the Scriptures in Public Worship lately. I had thoughts about this or questions at least:

1) Is reading the Scriptures an act of Leading (where one would be leading both men/women)?

A) If so, is reading the Scripture because it is an act of leading, an act of authority (see 1 Ti. 2) and thereby contrary to Scripture?
​

2) Is the singing of Psalms, Hymns, Spiritual Songs (use of the language is so that no one is offended, EP or non-EP) to be done by the Pastor, elder, or can it be done by anyone?

3) Is a woman who 'leads' in singing considered leading the congregation?

A) If so, is a woman 'leading' in worship, an act of authority (see 1 Ti. 2) and thereby contrary to Scripture?

B) If so (to question 3), if you were in the OPC or the PCA (where I know this happens) how would you respond to women 'leading'?
​

1. I would argue no, simply reading the Word (without any editorial comments) is not exhibiting authority. Incidentally, women reading Scripture in corporate worship is allowed in the PCA BCO.

Mason,

You have brought this up before somewhere I think. But this is incorrect.

BCO 50-1 - The public reading of the Holy Scriptures is performed by the minister as God’s servant...

BCO 50-2 - The reading of the Holy Scriptures in the congregation is a part of the public worship of God and should be done by the minister or some other person.

You would say that opens it up for anyone to read Scripture. But you have to take things in context and the Church must follow her constitution (WLC). SEE this post here






Consequently, as it has to do with the context, if you think about it women cannot according to the BCO read God's Word. Why? BCO 50-1, "The public reading of the Holy Scriptures is performed by the minister as God’s servant. Through it God speaks most directly to the congregation..."


Ask yourself the question, "If God speaks to you is it authoritative?" If so, when one reads Scripture, as it goes on to say when one preaches as well, God speaks most directly and if it is with authority then the one reading has authority over those who are hearing.

If this were true, Pastor Barnes, then only ordained men can read Scripture according to the BCO. BCO 50-2 clearly says that reading of the Scripture can be done by the minister or some other person. So either it can be done by ordained men only or anyone appointed by the minister. If the authors of the BCO intended it for men only, wouldn't they have said "some other man" instead of "some other person?"

Also, I don't quite follow your logic about women having authority since God is speaking authoritatively through them. I don't see how this holds: if the authority is from God, then it isn't somehow bestowed on the one reading the passage. The woman or man who simply reads from God's Word doesn't possess the authority of God, he/she is simply verbalizing what is already written in the text. That's like saying an interpreter has authority of those for whom he translates; simply relaying the message doesn't imply authority.

Exposition by a pastor is a different story, and is obviously reserved for men only.

 

[Grillsy]

1. I would argue no, simply reading the Word (without any editorial comments) is not exhibiting authority. Incidentally, women reading Scripture in corporate worship is allowed in the PCA BCO.

Mason,

You have brought this up before somewhere I think. But this is incorrect.

BCO 50-1 - The public reading of the Holy Scriptures is performed by the minister as God’s servant...

BCO 50-2 - The reading of the Holy Scriptures in the congregation is a part of the public worship of God and should be done by the minister or some other person.

You would say that opens it up for anyone to read Scripture. But you have to take things in context and the Church must follow her constitution (WLC). SEE this post here






Consequently, as it has to do with the context, if you think about it women cannot according to the BCO read God's Word. Why? BCO 50-1, "The public reading of the Holy Scriptures is performed by the minister as God’s servant. Through it God speaks most directly to the congregation..."


Ask yourself the question, "If God speaks to you is it authoritative?" If so, when one reads Scripture, as it goes on to say when one preaches as well, God speaks most directly and if it is with authority then the one reading has authority over those who are hearing.

If this were true, Pastor Barnes, then only ordained men can read Scripture according to the BCO. BCO 50-2 clearly says that reading of the Scripture can be done by the minister or some other person. So either it can be done by ordained men only or anyone appointed by the minister. If the authors of the BCO intended it for men only, wouldn't they have said "some other man" instead of "some other person?"

Also, I don't quite follow your logic about women having authority since God is speaking authoritatively through them. I don't see how this holds: if the authority is from God, then it isn't somehow bestowed on the one reading the passage. The woman or man who simply reads from God's Word doesn't possess the authority of God, he/she is simply verbalizing what is already written in the text. That's like saying an interpreter has authority of those for whom he translates; simply relaying the message doesn't imply authority.

Exposition by a pastor is a different story, and is obviously reserved for men only.

Any Scripture reading (exposited or not) or singing held during the service after the Call to Worship is considered part of the worship, therefore a woman would not be permitted.

Why would a woman be reading the Scriptures in front of the congregation in the first place?

 

[Edward]

There have been a couple threads here about women reading the Scriptures in Public Worship lately. I had thoughts about this or questions at least:

1) Is reading the Scriptures an act of Leading (where one would be leading both men/women)?

A) If so, is reading the Scripture because it is an act of leading, an act of authority (see 1 Ti. 2) and thereby contrary to Scripture?
​

2) Is the singing of Psalms, Hymns, Spiritual Songs (use of the language is so that no one is offended, EP or non-EP) to be done by the Pastor, elder, or can it be done by anyone?

3) Is a woman who 'leads' in singing considered leading the congregation?

A) If so, is a woman 'leading' in worship, an act of authority (see 1 Ti. 2) and thereby contrary to Scripture?

B) If so (to question 3), if you were in the OPC or the PCA (where I know this happens) how would you respond to women 'leading'?
​

1. I would argue no, simply reading the Word (without any editorial comments) is not exhibiting authority. Incidentally, women reading Scripture in corporate worship is allowed in the PCA BCO.

Mason,

You have brought this up before somewhere I think. But this is incorrect.

BCO 50-1 - The public reading of the Holy Scriptures is performed by the minister as God’s servant...

BCO 50-2 - The reading of the Holy Scriptures in the congregation is a part of the public worship of God and should be done by the minister or some other person.

You would say that opens it up for anyone to read Scripture. But you have to take things in context and the Church must follow her constitution (WLC). SEE this post here






Consequently, as it has to do with the context, if you think about it women cannot according to the BCO read God's Word. Why? BCO 50-1, "The public reading of the Holy Scriptures is performed by the minister as God’s servant. Through it God speaks most directly to the congregation..."


Ask yourself the question, "If God speaks to you is it authoritative?" If so, when one reads Scripture, as it goes on to say when one preaches as well, God speaks most directly and if it is with authority then the one reading has authority over those who are hearing.

Unless it's been changed recently, Chapter 50 doesn't have full constitutional authority.

While I personally lean toward the position that scripture should be read by ordained men, it's an area where I yield to the session and don't make a public issue of it.

 

[Romans922]

1. I would argue no, simply reading the Word (without any editorial comments) is not exhibiting authority. Incidentally, women reading Scripture in corporate worship is allowed in the PCA BCO.

Mason,

You have brought this up before somewhere I think. But this is incorrect.

BCO 50-1 - The public reading of the Holy Scriptures is performed by the minister as God’s servant...

BCO 50-2 - The reading of the Holy Scriptures in the congregation is a part of the public worship of God and should be done by the minister or some other person.

You would say that opens it up for anyone to read Scripture. But you have to take things in context and the Church must follow her constitution (WLC). SEE this post here






Consequently, as it has to do with the context, if you think about it women cannot according to the BCO read God's Word. Why? BCO 50-1, "The public reading of the Holy Scriptures is performed by the minister as God’s servant. Through it God speaks most directly to the congregation..."


Ask yourself the question, "If God speaks to you is it authoritative?" If so, when one reads Scripture, as it goes on to say when one preaches as well, God speaks most directly and if it is with authority then the one reading has authority over those who are hearing.

If this were true, Pastor Barnes, then only ordained men can read Scripture according to the BCO. BCO 50-2 clearly says that reading of the Scripture can be done by the minister or some other person. So either it can be done by ordained men only or anyone appointed by the minister. If the authors of the BCO intended it for men only, wouldn't they have said "some other man" instead of "some other person?"

Also, I don't quite follow your logic about women having authority since God is speaking authoritatively through them. I don't see how this holds: if the authority is from God, then it isn't somehow bestowed on the one reading the passage. The woman or man who simply reads from God's Word doesn't possess the authority of God, he/she is simply verbalizing what is already written in the text. That's like saying an interpreter has authority of those for whom he translates; simply relaying the message doesn't imply authority.

Exposition by a pastor is a different story, and is obviously reserved for men only.

Although the BCO doesn't hold (in these places) constitutional authority, you would know the meaning of the Larger Catechism, which does, through the Directory of Publick Worship of the Divines, as I linked above in that post. "Other people" refers to Ministers, elders, and those training for the ministry.

 

[Scott1]

1 Corinthians 14

1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

2For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

3But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

4He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

5I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

6Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

7And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

8For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

9So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

10There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.

11Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

12Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

13Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

14For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

16Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

17For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

18I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

19Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

20Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

23If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

24But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

25And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

26How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

27If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

28But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

29Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

30If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

31For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

32And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

33For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

36What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

37If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

38But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

39Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

40Let all things be done decently and in order.

When I look at the context of I Corinthians 14, it seems to be toward proclaiming, speaking authoritatively as part of the worship service- not toward speaking at all.

My sense is, in context with other passages, this is not really a categorical imperative (women may not speak "in church") but a precept in line with other biblical principles. In the Corinthian context (and probably in many modern charismatic/pentecostal churches), women are not given authority to preach, teach, exhort or present a "Word from the Lord" as part of public worship.

The biblical principles are what we call the regulative principle, church authority exercised through her officers (deacons, elders, ministers bishops), male authority generally but not an absolute restriction on speaking or even speaking out in church.

I'm still thinking this all through, but here is where I am leaning, particularly in context of I Corinthians 14:

Public worship is specifically prescribed and is to be lead by men, as is the natural order, and particularly by those whom He has called an appointed as something roughly analogous to the Old Testament Priest. But that doesn't mean every single function incident to worship.

I'm inclined to see reading of Scripture formally, as in liturgy is an authoritative and leading act. It calls to worship, proclaims or exhorts and none of those are functions God qualified for women to lead in the context of public worship (maybe in other contexts, but not as part of corporate worship).

I can't quite see singing as quite as authoritative. Maybe that's not consistent logically, but singing seems to be so much more a collective function.

So, what can women do and speak "in church" and not violate biblical precepts:

1) sing
2) pray randomly (not leading prayer)
3) pray responsively
4) give personal testimony

What ought they not do in respect of biblical precept?

1) read Scripture formally, as liturgically, in corporate worship
2) exhort from Scripture formally or informally as part of the service

And outside of corporate worship, they can teach, read and exhort other women and young children, and as necessary, if no Christian man is in the home. On these there is no restriction, because I don't think that is what the passages here are getting at.

 

[TeachingTulip]

A quick reply to this thread . . .

Gentlemen, be assured that not all females are demanding or expecting to be inserted into leadership positions in the visible churches. Many females have been allowed to temporally do so, unwittingly, by male authorities who should have searched the Scriptures and confessions more closely.

That said, I want to provide an anecdotal tale:

About 3 years back, my husband and I visited on many occasions, a Presbyterian Church in our area (I will not name, but it was a PC-USA), and at the time they had recently permitted women to step to the pulpit to read Scripture, and many ladies were rehearsing the little children (which produces a gag reflex on my part, at this moment) to produce "darling" little bible plays on the "stage" (stairs to the pulpit) almost every Lord's Day.

Needless to say, DH and I did not continue visiting after seeing the obvious handwriting on the wall.

To make a long story short, just this past week, our local newspaper announced, with a long piece. . .pictures and all, of the newly, ordained, female "reverend" officially ordained as leader of that church.

Now, I am a female and I do not approve of female Pastors or female elders or female deacons or female readers or female leaders of any size, shape, or form.

For this very reason. This is where is always ends. Female Pastors!

God forbid.

And to add to the anecdote, I predict that now that there IS a female Pastor, there will surely be homosexuals permitted into leadership at this "church" in the near future.

For there is left no moral, legal, or Scriptural basis or precedent, by which representatives of spiritual abominations can be denied positions of authority and leadership!

The visible and liberal churches have robbed themselves of their Godly foundations; the clear doctrines of the Holy Scriptures and the historical confessions of the faithful Christian fathers, as expressed in the Reformed Creeds.

 

[calgal]

Ronda:
I agree that the women in "leadership" roles need to be managed (in a way) by a discerning session or council to avoid the very situation you describe.

I think it is cute to have little kids sing occasionally but I find a lot of special performances where the performer(s) are the focus of the service rather offputting. It is in my opinion correct to use the talents of church members to the Glory of God but not to have plays, orchestral numbers and all sorts of entertainment that detracts from the Preaching of the Word during worship.

 

[DonP]

There have been a couple threads here about women reading the Scriptures in Public Worship lately. I had thoughts about this or questions at least:

1) Is reading the Scriptures an act of Leading (where one would be leading both men/women)?

A) If so, is reading the Scripture because it is an act of leading, an act of authority (see 1 Ti. 2) and thereby contrary to Scripture?
​

2) Is the singing of Psalms, Hymns, Spiritual Songs (use of the language is so that no one is offended, EP or non-EP) to be done by the Pastor, elder, or can it be done by anyone?

3) Is a woman who 'leads' in singing considered leading the congregation?

A) If so, is a woman 'leading' in worship, an act of authority (see 1 Ti. 2) and thereby contrary to Scripture?

B) If so (to question 3), if you were in the OPC or the PCA (where I know this happens) how would you respond to women 'leading'?
​

Is "leading" leading? Yes leading is leading. So women are not to lead, they are to be in silence in church. So what could they lead in silence?

As for singing it is not one person leading, it is all at the same time. Singing is not speaking, it is singing. So yes women can sing with the congregation.

Solos, no. Why? It is leading worship. Or it is entertainment and has no place in worship.

Do we have any scriptural warrant for solos?

If the church has been fine and women have been fine for thousands of years, why now do we need to have women go against scripture and come up with a better idea??

What is the need?