Will there be a massive harvest of Jews before Jesus Returns?

[Roldan]

Quite a journey for me. I used to be a Dispensational, blah blah, yada, yada, until I became Reformed. Then I studied under O. Palmer Robertson, Robert Reymond, etc., for several years and came to be thoroughly convinced the Romans passage referred to "spiritual" Israel, "in this way" all Israel -- spiritual Israel -- will be saved. Preached it, I was a conference speaker on it.

Then I preached a verse-by-verse series on Romans a few years later (2001- 2007). More in-depth study led me to change my mind. I do not change my mind easily. Nevertheless, I am now convinced beyond a doubt that Paul's text teaches there will be a massive influx to faith in Christ by national Israel near or at the end of the age. In fact I think it is pretty much the point of chapters 9 - 11.

I had the opposite experience. But anyways what national Israel?

 

[Marno]

I had the opposite experience. But anyways what national Israel?

You went from a Reformed view to a Dispensational view???

I think the text itself assumes a "national Israel" rather than a "spiritual Israel".

"Israel" ("Israelite") is mentioned at least 6 times in Romans 11, as well as many references to "them" and "they" and "his people", meaning national, or at least ethnic Israel. Verse 25 speaks of a "partial hardening" having come "upon Israel", and the very next verse speaks of "all Israel". I do not think that Paul in a singular change of meaning singles out "all Israel" as a spiritual body of God's elect from all nations and races. I think the context and flow of thought of "Israel" is the same throughout the chapter -- ethnic Israel, descendants of Abraham.

-----Added 3/15/2009 at 01:40:16 EST-----

Thank you Mike.
I've heard this from several men. One brother had an experience much like yours, but his was in a class on Romans. In his exegesis of those very chapters he had to change his view.
Blessings,

Yep. It's not easy to eat humble pie after having made a passionate case for the "spiritual Israel" interpretation for a number of years. But the truth, or at least the truth as we believe it to be, must win out over our pride. If we have come to change our minds -- one way or the other -- we should make it as public as our previous opinion had been.

 

[baron]

Jews by physical descent.

Modern Jews can tell a three quarter Jew he's not a Jew because of a Gentile mother. And obviously the reverse it true, that a one quarter Jew gets automatic citizenship in Israel if his mom is a Jew.

How would you define a Jew?

I did not see an answer to this question but this morning in sunday school we were discussing this question of what or who is a Jew. My confusion runs from that my great great something grandparents were supposedly Russian and Polish Jews that ended up becoming catholic. This was told to me by a long dead aunt. There were some Jewish tradations that my grandmother and her mother followed. My mother had no idea why. But they never considered themself Jewish. If my anut had not told my mother she would never of thought about being part Jewish.

My wife is of Mexican and other nationalities but here last name is of Spanish-Jewish decent.

I read articles of Mexicans in New Mexico and Arizonia of being Catholic but also had Jewish beliefs that have been handed down for generations. I do not have the article but it was about a type of cancer that is common to Jewish woman I believe and these Mexican woman had the same gene defects or something on that order. But the article concluded that these Mexican woman were of Spanish-Jewish descent.

So who or what makes someone Jewish? Is it Religon or physical descent. If I convert to Judasim does that make me Jewish.

Sorry if I am not clear because my brain works a lot faster than my fingers doing the typing.

 

[DonP]

Jews by physical descent.

How would you define a Jew?

So who or what makes someone Jewish? Is it Religon or physical descent. If I convert to Judasim does that make me Jewish.

Sorry if I am not clear because my brain works a lot faster than my fingers doing the typing.

I would go with Gods definition

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; NKJV

Definitely nit physical descent.
-----Added 3/16/2009 at 01:11:19 EST-----

I had the opposite experience. But anyways what national Israel?

You went from a Reformed view to a Dispensational view???

I think the text itself assumes a "national Israel" rather than a "spiritual Israel".

"Israel" ("Israelite") is mentioned at least 6 times in Romans 11, as well as many references to "them" and "they" and "his people", meaning national, or at least ethnic Israel.

-----Added 3/15/2009 at 01:40:16 EST-----

Yes I have to agree, what national Israel? National Israel was done away with. At least for 1940 years.

But be careful. He goes back and forth on the meaning and use of the words Jew, Israel, Israelite. It does mean more than one thing even in one verse as my last post shows.


In His Service,

-----Added 3/16/2009 at 01:22:51 EST-----
--------------------------------
I am confused

What is so complicated about this

Rom 9:6-8
But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. NKJV

We absolutely clearly emphatically see that ethnic born Jews are not, never were the Children of God

It was the chosen elect of all nations and ages, Jew 1st then all nations. These are Israel who the promises were made to.

The ethnic people were only a visible covenant type of the true.

And vrs 6, not all who are Israel are ethnic Jews. I can't mean anything else and make sense. Spiritual Israel is made up of all believers and not all of them are ethnic Jews.

So here is a perfect example that of course he does use the same word to mean 2 different things and not the same.
Not all frogs are frogs. Doesn't make sense. One Israel must mean something different.

So as long as you don't disagree with this you are not dispensational

But why, if God never ever had anything to do with ethnic Jews would He later??

His promises were to His people. And all ethnic Jews will never be saved because some already haven't been saved.

The only ALL who will be saved is the elect.

In His Service,

 

[Marno]

So who or what makes someone Jewish? Is it Religon or physical descent. If I convert to Judasim does that make me Jewish.

I don't know. I am relying on the text of Romans 9, 10, and 11. Whatever Paul meant, it was not "spiritual" Israel, but Israelites, descendants of Abraham. If it were clear and obvious we wouldn't be having this discussion.

But yes, converting to Judaism would make you Jewish.

 

[Manuel]

I think that a massive conversion of Jews is a possibility based on the teachings of Romans 9, 10 and 11. In chapter 9, at the beginning, Paul expresses his sorrow for Israel, the Jewish people; he uses the words "my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh." I think that undoubtedly he is talking about ethnic Israel here. He continues to say:

Rom 9:4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises.
Rom 9:5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

Paul's concern is that the Israelites (according to the flesh) in their majority have rejected the Gospel of our Lord Jesus, but then proceeds to explain that it's not that God's word failed because the true Israel is not those who are children according to the flesh but those who are His children according to the promise. This is the true Israel, no doubt about it.

However, in verse 30 he switches back to a distinction between jews and gentiles according to the flesh.

Rom 9:30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith;
Rom 9:31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law.

I think it's very clear in these verses that the Jew-gentile distinction is ethnic, not spiritual. In all of chapter 10 this ethnic distinction continues. His prayer is for them (those who are Israelites according to the flesh) that they may be saved. He explains that they tried to establish their own righteousness and for this cause they did not submit to God's righteousness. They were following a righteousness that is by works and commandments, but God's righteousness is by faith, and regarding this faith there is no distinction in God's eyes between Jews and gentiles.

The rest of the chapter he continues his lament about Israel according to the flesh because they have not believed the Gospel. He concludes saying: "But of Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people."

Chapter 11 is a continuation of chapter 10, the Israelites' unbelief doesn't mean that God has rejected His people (obviously here His people is ethnic Israel), and he offers two reasons for why he thinks this is so.

1- Not all Israelites (according to the flesh) have rejected the Gospel, but there is a believing remnant just like in Elijah's times, and Paul counts himself among them saying: "For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin." It is pretty obvoius that he is talking here about an ethnic Israel, not a spiritual one.

2-The second reason that he offers is that this partial hardening of Israel according to the flesh has a purpose and it's temporary. Their trespass is riches for the world and their rejections means the reconciliation of the world (vs. 12, 15), and this hardening will continue "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." and in this manner all Israel will be saved. By this I understand, of course, spiritual Israel, all of the elect both gentiles and the elect remnant of Jewish people who are saved throughout the ages and a remnant of physical descendants of Abraham, whom only God knows, and has reserved for obedience to the Gospel when the fullness of the gentiles has come in.

So I think there will be a massive conversion of Jews before the Lord's return.

 

[BlackCalvinist]

I think that a massive conversion of Jews is a possibility based on the teachings of Romans 9, 10 and 11. In chapter 9, at the beginning, Paul expresses his sorrow for Israel, the Jewish people; he uses the words "my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh." I think that undoubtedly he is talking about ethnic Israel here. He continues to say:

Rom 9:4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises.
Rom 9:5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

Paul's concern is that the Israelites (according to the flesh) in their majority have rejected the Gospel of our Lord Jesus, but then proceeds to explain that it's not that God's word failed because the true Israel is not those who are children according to the flesh but those who are His children according to the promise. This is the true Israel, no doubt about it.

However, in verse 30 he switches back to a distinction between jews and gentiles according to the flesh.

Rom 9:30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith;
Rom 9:31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law.

I think it's very clear in these verses that the Jew-gentile distinction is ethnic, not spiritual. In all of chapter 10 this ethnic distinction continues. His prayer is for them (those who are Israelites according to the flesh) that they may be saved. He explains that they tried to establish their own righteousness and for this cause they did not submit to God's righteousness. They were following a righteousness that is by works and commandments, but God's righteousness is by faith, and regarding this faith there is no distinction in God's eyes between Jews and gentiles.

The rest of the chapter he continues his lament about Israel according to the flesh because they have not believed the Gospel. He concludes saying: "But of Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people."

Chapter 11 is a continuation of chapter 10, the Israelites' unbelief doesn't mean that God has rejected His people (obviously here His people is ethnic Israel), and he offers two reasons for why he thinks this is so.

1- Not all Israelites (according to the flesh) have rejected the Gospel, but there is a believing remnant just like in Elijah's times, and Paul counts himself among them saying: "For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin." It is pretty obvoius that he is talking here about an ethnic Israel, not a spiritual one.

2-The second reason that he offers is that this partial hardening of Israel according to the flesh has a purpose and it's temporary. Their trespass is riches for the world and their rejections means the reconciliation of the world (vs. 12, 15), and this hardening will continue "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." and in this manner all Israel will be saved. By this I understand, of course, spiritual Israel, all of the elect both gentiles and the elect remnant of Jewish people who are saved throughout the ages and a remnant of physical descendants of Abraham, whom only God knows, and has reserved for obedience to the Gospel when the fullness of the gentiles has come in.

So I think there will be a massive conversion of Jews before the Lord's return.

Thank you for saving me the trouble of typing this. You expressed my thoughts perfectly here.

 

[Manuel]

You are very welcome, good to know that I haven't lost my telepathic powers.

 

[DonP]

Who do you think these are??

Rev 2:9 I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. NKJV

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan , which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. KJV

These are the covenant breakers! Those who were ethnic Jews and possibly church attenders.

Again I say the simplicity of this matter is overwhelming and one must seek to support his own belief to not see how Paul clarifies to those who think it was for ethnic Jews, what God meant in His promises to the Jews. There is no way ethnic Jews can all be saved because some are dying without Christ now. So All saved must and can only mean the elect. So shall all Israel be saved means in this way shall God fulfill His promise to save all Israel, all Jews, all covenant people, only in the invisible covenant, the elect of all believers Jew and Gentiles, the heirs of Abraham, of all nations.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, NKJV

Rom 3:22 For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God NKJV

Think as if you were a Jew complaining to Paul for preaching salvation to Gentles. Paul now explains the whole thing to you so you understand the Gentiles were always part of the Plan and God started with ethnic Jews but promised Abraham it would go to all nations. And it did. Israel is all the elect of all nations and heirs of the promise to Abraham and all of this was done before the law, before the nation, and before circumcision. Before Israel the nation was, Israel of promise to Abraham was made for people of all nations, then Gos started this process with the nation of Jews. Its all one, one plan., one body, one unfolding beginning with the promised child of Abraham and then his ever expanding family of faith.
any non ethnic Jew who came in and believed could always become a part of Israel, would be a Jew of faith.

Rom 3:29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. NKJV

Rom 4:9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? NKJV

The Jews hated this and wanted it to be only for ethnic Jews. Paul had to keep pounding it into them even to chapt 15 it was always for Gentiles and not ever for ethnic Jews. In fact in Gods eyes there is no difference. Never was.

Rom 4:13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, NKJV
LOOK If there was ever a promise to ethnic Jews it would make faith and grace void!!

Rom 4:16 so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, NKJV
All the seed is all in Christ.

Next he speaks of fleshy seed of Abraham he switches how he uses seed and Jew and Israel back and forth. Not all of ethnic Israel who are in Spiritual Israel.

Rom 9:6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. NKJV

So the above verse shows us that the children of the flesh, are not the who the promise was made to. There never ever was a promise to ethnic Jews. They only mistakenly thought there was. Paul says it was always meant to be the seed of Abraham, those in Christ, the elect.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek,NKJV

Rom 11:7 Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.NKJV
Ethnic Israel did not obtain what it thought was going to be, but the elect of all ages obtained it because it was never to ethnic Jews only people of faith.

This is how all Israel will be saved, by all the elect being saved, the coming in of the Gentiles and the current ongoing conversion of Jews like Paul

Rom 11:25 the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, NKJV

Because all Israel is and always was all the elect who would have faith in Christ and no others.

So God id not fail in making promises to the Jews because in His mind a Jew was not a fleshly descendant but a faithful believer regardless of ethnicity even in OT times.

 

[KMK]

I think this thread has run its course. Everyone has had a say. Instead of continually resurrecting this thread, those who have more to add should start a new thread. That way we can keep the conversation 'streamlined'.