Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Why can't worship be emotional???
Using your hands in worship
- Thread starter Scott Bushey
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Good question Scott.
Worship should be emotional. It should also involve the intellect. It should also involve the will. Emotions are NOT bad. It is the improper expression of emotions, just as the improper expressions of the intellect and will that are to be avoided.
I don't know that anyone is saying emotions are bad although I think all would admit they CAN be.
The point I am making is, is that we are never commanded to worship WITH our emotions. They may be a RESULT of our worship, but not a PART. Our worship must be in spirit and in truth, the same way God is Spirit.
God clearly does not have emotions (see WCF Chapter II, Section1), yet God seeks those to worship him according to his nature (spirtual).
Again, I see emotions as a result of worship, not a part. God's truth should be highly valued and precious to each one of us. This will cause a reaction.
biblelighthouse
Puritan Board Junior
I raise my hands in worship of God when I worship Him privately.
I really wish the church I am at would do it corporately . . . unfortunately, I am not quite bold enough to be the only one doing it.
Two people on this thread have said that we do not worship God with our emotions, and that emotion is not part of the worship service. --- This is probably an accurate reflection of the sad state of quite a few Reformed congregations, but I completely disagree that this should be normative.
On the contrary, I believe it is a sin NOT to worship God with your emotions. Emotion is a part of worship. God is worshipped and glorified BY proper emotions at the proper times. If I partake of the Lord's body and blood, and mentally think about what He has done, and yet have no emotional response, then I dishonor God. On the other hand, if I am deeply moved emotionally when I think about my Savior who was crucified, then my emotions glorify God.
Pentecostals have a lot of "heat" (emotions), but no "light" (doctrinal focus and accuracy).
Many Reformed churches have a lot of "light" (doctrinal focus and accuracy), but no "heat" (emotions).
Both approaches are wrong. And yet both groups are afraid to change, because they (for good reason!) don't want to turn into the other group. Instead of seeking balance, it seems like each side is just reactionary, and thus each side ends up going way too far to one side or the other.
(Please note: I realize that some Pentecostals go WAY too far with emotionalism. So I am only making a fallible analogy. I am NOT saying that we should be copying their extreme emotionalism.)
When Jesus commanded us to love God with all of our hearts, minds, souls, and strength, He wasn't asking us to mentally categorize all of our worship into 4 various categories. Jesus was simply saying that we are to love God will ALL of our being . . . 100% of it.
Is your mind part of your being? Then study Scripture and doctrine and worship God with your mind.
Is your physical body part of your being? Then partake of the Lord's Supper and worship God with your physical body.
Are your emotions part of your being? Then worship God with your emotions. Love what He loves. Hate what He hates. Rejoice in that which pleases Him. Exult in that which He exults. Have sorrow for sin. Have joy for salvation.
God *commands* emotional responses throughout all Scripture. And those commands don't check themselves at the door when you step into a church service on Sunday morning.
[Edited on 6-7-2005 by biblelighthouse]
I really wish the church I am at would do it corporately . . . unfortunately, I am not quite bold enough to be the only one doing it.
Two people on this thread have said that we do not worship God with our emotions, and that emotion is not part of the worship service. --- This is probably an accurate reflection of the sad state of quite a few Reformed congregations, but I completely disagree that this should be normative.
On the contrary, I believe it is a sin NOT to worship God with your emotions. Emotion is a part of worship. God is worshipped and glorified BY proper emotions at the proper times. If I partake of the Lord's body and blood, and mentally think about what He has done, and yet have no emotional response, then I dishonor God. On the other hand, if I am deeply moved emotionally when I think about my Savior who was crucified, then my emotions glorify God.
Pentecostals have a lot of "heat" (emotions), but no "light" (doctrinal focus and accuracy).
Many Reformed churches have a lot of "light" (doctrinal focus and accuracy), but no "heat" (emotions).
Both approaches are wrong. And yet both groups are afraid to change, because they (for good reason!) don't want to turn into the other group. Instead of seeking balance, it seems like each side is just reactionary, and thus each side ends up going way too far to one side or the other.
(Please note: I realize that some Pentecostals go WAY too far with emotionalism. So I am only making a fallible analogy. I am NOT saying that we should be copying their extreme emotionalism.)
When Jesus commanded us to love God with all of our hearts, minds, souls, and strength, He wasn't asking us to mentally categorize all of our worship into 4 various categories. Jesus was simply saying that we are to love God will ALL of our being . . . 100% of it.
Is your mind part of your being? Then study Scripture and doctrine and worship God with your mind.
Is your physical body part of your being? Then partake of the Lord's Supper and worship God with your physical body.
Are your emotions part of your being? Then worship God with your emotions. Love what He loves. Hate what He hates. Rejoice in that which pleases Him. Exult in that which He exults. Have sorrow for sin. Have joy for salvation.
God *commands* emotional responses throughout all Scripture. And those commands don't check themselves at the door when you step into a church service on Sunday morning.
[Edited on 6-7-2005 by biblelighthouse]
Amen Joseph.
Jeff, perhaps you need more time to explain. But your initial thought appears to be a stretch.
Our emotions are part of our being. So we must be emotional when we worship. period.
Where are we commanded to sit like stones looking at the back of the heads in front of us doing litugical calestenics at the command of 1 person?
The analogy you use of spirit and truth is not clear to me.
Spirit and truth does not negate our emotions, so i do not know what you mean here
Jeff, perhaps you need more time to explain. But your initial thought appears to be a stretch.
Our emotions are part of our being. So we must be emotional when we worship. period.
Where are we commanded to sit like stones looking at the back of the heads in front of us doing litugical calestenics at the command of 1 person?
The analogy you use of spirit and truth is not clear to me.
Spirit and truth does not negate our emotions, so i do not know what you mean here
WrittenFromUtopia
Puritan Board Graduate
I'll ignore the ad hominem and simply explain. Jeff pretty much had it correct.
Worship comes from a regenerated heart. It is done in Spirit and Truth. True worship is Spiritual in *origin* and *nature* ... HOWEVER, True Worship, which comes from our Spiritual heart CAN and often DOES lead to an emotional response in some way.
All I'm saying is that worship does not ORIGINATE from emotions. If it does, it is nothing more than psychological manipulation. I get emotional listening to any music the same way I could get listening to a song about Jesus. The difference between true worship and just being manipulated emotionally/psychologically is how your worship originates; that is, does it come from a spiritual heart and desire or does it come from emotional manipulation through music, words, and environment/circumstances.
If we can't worship without certain circumstances and everything being "just right" in order to spur our emotions first, then we are not worshipping from the heart and we are not worshipping in Spirit and Truth; we're just being psychologically manipulated cry babies.
Of course singing from God's Word makes me emotional at times, but I don't feel like I'm worshipping *only when* I get emotional; rather, it is the result of a heart already expressing joy and loving obedience to the Lord in True Worship.
Right Heart -> Spirit and Truth -> Worship -> Sometimes an emotional response
*NOT*
Things that make you emotional -> Worship
Worship comes from a regenerated heart. It is done in Spirit and Truth. True worship is Spiritual in *origin* and *nature* ... HOWEVER, True Worship, which comes from our Spiritual heart CAN and often DOES lead to an emotional response in some way.
All I'm saying is that worship does not ORIGINATE from emotions. If it does, it is nothing more than psychological manipulation. I get emotional listening to any music the same way I could get listening to a song about Jesus. The difference between true worship and just being manipulated emotionally/psychologically is how your worship originates; that is, does it come from a spiritual heart and desire or does it come from emotional manipulation through music, words, and environment/circumstances.
If we can't worship without certain circumstances and everything being "just right" in order to spur our emotions first, then we are not worshipping from the heart and we are not worshipping in Spirit and Truth; we're just being psychologically manipulated cry babies.
Of course singing from God's Word makes me emotional at times, but I don't feel like I'm worshipping *only when* I get emotional; rather, it is the result of a heart already expressing joy and loving obedience to the Lord in True Worship.
Right Heart -> Spirit and Truth -> Worship -> Sometimes an emotional response
*NOT*
Things that make you emotional -> Worship
WrittenFromUtopia
Puritan Board Graduate
1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
1 Corinthians 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God.
If emotions are a commanded part of worship, why didn't Paul do everything he could to stir them up? It seems to me that we should play music real soft, dim the lights, and let the good times roll if this is the case.
Jonathan Edwards understood the above verses and chose to use a more of a monotone (one could say emotionless
) voice out of a fear that his inflection might produce bad fruit and false profession. He understood that it is the word of God understood was what was important. In fact when people began to get emotional and cry out, he rebuked them as the story goes.
It may be good to come up with a definition of emtions to make sure we're not talking past each other.
1 Corinthians 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God.
If emotions are a commanded part of worship, why didn't Paul do everything he could to stir them up? It seems to me that we should play music real soft, dim the lights, and let the good times roll if this is the case.
Jonathan Edwards understood the above verses and chose to use a more of a monotone (one could say emotionless
) voice out of a fear that his inflection might produce bad fruit and false profession. He understood that it is the word of God understood was what was important. In fact when people began to get emotional and cry out, he rebuked them as the story goes.It may be good to come up with a definition of emtions to make sure we're not talking past each other.
kceaster
Puritan Board Junior
Back to the topic, I think the early church could help us out with this. I'm pretty sure we don't see them having solos, special music, hand clapping, etc. But rather, when they said AMEN, one wrote that it sounded like a clap of thunder.
Why do we need to applaud? Isn't it merely a modern day reaction to something pleasing? I see no reason to drag this practice into the church. To me, it's a tiny bit of will worship. Are we commanded to clap for God? As far as I know, God wants us to worship Him with words, not clapping.
When the psalmist says clap your hands in the 47th, I believe it was for syncopation, not for praise. It is clear that praise is to be sung in the rest of the chapter, and that with understanding.
And many have said that David's raising his hands in the Psalms is not public worship but private, as he recalled the evening sacrifices and the priests with hands uplifted.
If one calls me stoic, I am well. Joy does not always seem happy. Exuberance can fill the heart with gladness, yet the expression of the face or the body, remain still.
God made us expressive creatures, but that doesn't mean that if we are not expressive, we are somehow not truly worshipping God.
I would stick with the early church. Let's make worship as simple, profound, and reverent as possible. And let's keep the world out of it.
In Christ,
KC
Why do we need to applaud? Isn't it merely a modern day reaction to something pleasing? I see no reason to drag this practice into the church. To me, it's a tiny bit of will worship. Are we commanded to clap for God? As far as I know, God wants us to worship Him with words, not clapping.
When the psalmist says clap your hands in the 47th, I believe it was for syncopation, not for praise. It is clear that praise is to be sung in the rest of the chapter, and that with understanding.
And many have said that David's raising his hands in the Psalms is not public worship but private, as he recalled the evening sacrifices and the priests with hands uplifted.
If one calls me stoic, I am well. Joy does not always seem happy. Exuberance can fill the heart with gladness, yet the expression of the face or the body, remain still.
God made us expressive creatures, but that doesn't mean that if we are not expressive, we are somehow not truly worshipping God.
I would stick with the early church. Let's make worship as simple, profound, and reverent as possible. And let's keep the world out of it.
In Christ,
KC
This is incorrect. The Biblical view is that we worship God with our whole selves, mind, emotion and will. You are simply not presenting what the Bible presents, but rather (I suppose) an (understandable) reaction to the vast majority of modern "worship". Rather the Bible speaks of worshipping in fear, in joy, rejoicing, etc. These are all emotions.
God clearly does have emotions. He loves. He hates. He rejoices. The passage in WCF 2.1 "without passions" does not refer to emotions. It is a reference to changability.
Emotions are a part of our being. It does not good to deny them, or to say that they are a "product" of what we do. The mind is primary - that I will grant. Because the emotions can go very astray when not reined in by the mind. But emotions are not bad.
WrittenFromUtopia
Puritan Board Graduate
Do you believe one is not worshipping unless they are emotional? Do you believe worship is a result of an emotional experience?
Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel
1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
1 Corinthians 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God.
If emotions are a commanded part of worship, why didn't Paul do everything he could to stir them up? It seems to me that we should play music real soft, dim the lights, and let the good times roll if this is the case.
Jonathan Edwards understood the above verses and chose to use a more of a monotone (one could say emotionless
It may be good to come up with a definition of emtions to make sure we're not talking past each other.
Jeff,
You're talking about emotionalism or a certain type of emotional reaction. Paul did do everything he could to stir up emotions in his readers - he urged them to love, to have compassion to one another, to hate sin, etc.
BlackCalvinist
Puritan Board Senior
Scott and Fred have pretty much said all I could've said on this.
Gabe - emotions are excited by things.
If ALL OF YOU (Deut. 6:5) is loving and worshipping God, then it's IMPOSSIBLE for your emotions to not be a part of worship.
Yes, worship does need to be based on true things about God in order for it to be valid. Personally, I can't even see the 'sometimes an emotional response' thing you said earlier in explaining yourself. How in the world can you not feel ANYTHING when singing praises to the God who saved you from your sins ? What kind of heart doesn't feel ANYTHING when singing, speaking, teaching or daily living for the God of the Universe Who, for no other reason than His own good pleasure, decided to NOT let you continue on your way to hell ?
Gabe - emotions are excited by things.
If ALL OF YOU (Deut. 6:5) is loving and worshipping God, then it's IMPOSSIBLE for your emotions to not be a part of worship.
Yes, worship does need to be based on true things about God in order for it to be valid. Personally, I can't even see the 'sometimes an emotional response' thing you said earlier in explaining yourself. How in the world can you not feel ANYTHING when singing praises to the God who saved you from your sins ? What kind of heart doesn't feel ANYTHING when singing, speaking, teaching or daily living for the God of the Universe Who, for no other reason than His own good pleasure, decided to NOT let you continue on your way to hell ?
biblelighthouse
Puritan Board Junior
Like Fred said earlier, there is a clear difference between emotion and emotionalism.
It is emotionalism to try to elicit an emotional response merely through soft lighting, pretty music, etc.
But it is a sin not to have appropriate emotions regarding God's awesome Sovereignty, what Christ has done for us on the cross, etc.
The object of our emotions is where the entire issue turns. If our "joy" is nothing more than a product of proper temperature, lighting, and music, then it is not focused on God, and therefore doesn't honor God. But if our joy is because our names are written in the Lamb's book of life, then our joy is *commanded*, and that joy is worshipful to God.
Worship comes from a regenerate person. A person is made up of mind, emotion and will. The "heart" encompasses all these things.
Renewed Mind/Emotions/Will --> Worship in Spirit and truth
Excellent point Fred.
If anyone believe Paul preached or taught as some describe Edwards as doing, I have to doubt that.
For starters, Edwards is not the barometer for style from what I gather.
Paul possesed the emotional zeal for the crucified Christ. His words sprang from his lips as lightning.
If one believes he stood stoic at a podium reading from a script, they are mistaken.
1. I believe that joy, fear etc. etc. are commanded by God.
2. Emotions (and worship for that matter) have not been defined.
3. Are emotions different from feelings? Does God have feelings?
4. Nobody has EVER stated that all emotions are bad. I don't know why this keeps coming up. Everyone admits that emotions can be good, and can be bad.
5. Please differentiate between "emotions" and "emotionalism." I see "emotionalism" as "one who is emotional." According to many here, it seems like this should be considered a good thing.
I just say Worship in Spirit and truth as led by the Spirit.
Many reformers and puritans restricted any type of outward emotions as being bad. All I am stating is there is a balance between the "toronto Blessing heresy" vs the stone cold stoicism of certain reformers and puritans.
I cannot imagine for one second that on the day of pentacost people were stone cold.
People thought they were drunk. SO I believe we can concur that they were kinda wild.
And again, David dancing naked in front of the Lord is obvious.
Some here seem to be like Davids wife. Squelching a pure heart overjoyed with emotion for our Lord.
Satan has a way of ruining our joy. Just like Davids wife tried to. And what was her fate for raining on the parade?
Barren till death!!!!!!!!!!
Many reformers and puritans restricted any type of outward emotions as being bad. All I am stating is there is a balance between the "toronto Blessing heresy" vs the stone cold stoicism of certain reformers and puritans.
I cannot imagine for one second that on the day of pentacost people were stone cold.
People thought they were drunk. SO I believe we can concur that they were kinda wild.
And again, David dancing naked in front of the Lord is obvious.
Some here seem to be like Davids wife. Squelching a pure heart overjoyed with emotion for our Lord.
Satan has a way of ruining our joy. Just like Davids wife tried to. And what was her fate for raining on the parade?
Barren till death!!!!!!!!!!
biblelighthouse
Puritan Board Junior
Yes, being "one who is emotional" is a very good thing, if those emotions are in proper response to God and what He has done. It is a sin not to be emotionally affected by His Sovereignty and Love.
I already pointed out the difference between God-honoring emotions and mere emotionalism. I think the difference has to do with the *object* of the emotions.
I repeat:
It is emotionalism to try to elicit an emotional response merely through soft lighting, pretty music, etc.
But it is a sin not to have appropriate emotions regarding God's awesome Sovereignty, what Christ has done for us on the cross, etc.
The object of our emotions is where the entire issue turns. If our "joy" is nothing more than a product of proper temperature, lighting, and music, then it is not focused on God, and therefore doesn't honor God. But if our joy is because our names are written in the Lamb's book of life, then our joy is *commanded*, and that joy is worshipful to God.
biblelighthouse
Puritan Board Junior
Or, to put it another way:
is not at odds with 
[Edited on 6-7-2005 by biblelighthouse]
is not at odds with [Edited on 6-7-2005 by biblelighthouse]
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
Originally posted by biblelighthouse
Or, to put it another way:
[Edited on 6-7-2005 by biblelighthouse]
Emotionalism is the manipulation of the emotions. The emotions can be manipulated, just as the mind can be (deceit), and the will can be (coercion).
Emotions are neither good nor bad. It is the end to which they are put, just like the mind. Love is not a "good" emotion, and hate a "bad" emotion. Hate can be a proper thing. Love can be improper at times.
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
I understand the word passions to mean emotions. (What does the word from Acts 14.15 mean in the Greek?)
Robert Shaw:
A.A. Hodge:
But I also understand the Incarnate Christ to have had human emotions expressed perfectly in his zeal/anger towards the moneychangers in the Temple or the tears that he shed for Lazarus.
This is an area where I would like to study more, however. Please let me know if anyone has any recommended reading on this issue. Also, please feel free to enlighten me if my understanding is incorrect.
[Edited on 6-8-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]
Noah Webster 1828
Emotion
EMO'TION, n. [L. emotio; emoveo, to move from.]
1. Literally, a moving of the mind or soul; hence,any agitation of mind or excitement of sensibility.
2. In a philosophical sense, an internal motion or agitation of the mind which passes away without desire; when desire follows, the motion or agitation is called a passion.
3. Passion is the sensible effect, the feeling to which the mind is subjected,when an object of importance suddenly and imperiously demands its attention. The state of absolute passiveness, in consequence of any sudden percussion of mind, is of short duration. The strong impression, or vivid sensation, immediately produces a reaction correspondent to its nature, either to appropriate and enjoy, or avoid and repel the exciting cause. This reaction is very properly distinguished by the term emotion.
Emotions therefore, according to the genuine signification of the word, are principally and primarily applicable to the sensible changes and visible effects, which particular passions produce on the frame, in consequence of this reaction, or particular agitation of mind.
Emotion
EMO'TION, n. [L. emotio; emoveo, to move from.]
1. Literally, a moving of the mind or soul; hence,any agitation of mind or excitement of sensibility.
2. In a philosophical sense, an internal motion or agitation of the mind which passes away without desire; when desire follows, the motion or agitation is called a passion.
3. Passion is the sensible effect, the feeling to which the mind is subjected,when an object of importance suddenly and imperiously demands its attention. The state of absolute passiveness, in consequence of any sudden percussion of mind, is of short duration. The strong impression, or vivid sensation, immediately produces a reaction correspondent to its nature, either to appropriate and enjoy, or avoid and repel the exciting cause. This reaction is very properly distinguished by the term emotion.
Emotions therefore, according to the genuine signification of the word, are principally and primarily applicable to the sensible changes and visible effects, which particular passions produce on the frame, in consequence of this reaction, or particular agitation of mind.
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