Wouldn't that make the submission of Jesus only for when He was here in human body, and was done when He ascended back to heaven?
Surprised that some famous Theologians Agreed with Dr Grudem on the ESS
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C. M. Sheffield
Puritan Board Graduate
Perhaps I should have been clearer. I was speaking in the broadest sense about the heat generated by this discussion, not exclusively here in this thread or on PB. In that sense, it is very much the case that a partisan spirit hinders the discussion. And how can it not be the case when the first salvo in a debate is to charge the other side with heresy? You are welcome to disagree, but that's what I've observed.
Would you see Dr Grudem in same light as say Dr Macarthur, as gifted bible teachers who have some weak areas in their theology? Dr Grudem in the areas of ESS and Charasamatic gifts, and Dr Macarthur on his Israel/Church viewpoint?
Woudl it be actual heresy, or instead a wrong view, a misunderstanding of what the scriptures teach?
Grant
Puritan Board Graduate
"Partisan" is a strong word, and not charitable if by it you mean that those you accuse have not heavily weighed both sides of the matter.
If by it you simply mean "supporter", then it could be said that Gruedum himself is partisan to his position on ESS.
Now, where do you stand on the ESS matter?
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Grant
Puritan Board Graduate
Short answer.....Yes (same could be said for any faithful Christian teacher)...but let's not get too off topic.
Ask Mr. Religion
Flatly Unflappable
Can you lay out your position on this matter (complementarian) as well as the ESS view? You seem to be stopping by with questions that hint you have a position. Can you share it?
Isn't Complentarianism though the position laid out to us in the scriptures themselves?
C. M. Sheffield
Puritan Board Graduate
If some are guilty of a party spirit (which is something we are all guilty of from time to time) there is nothing uncharitable about saying so.
Grant
Puritan Board Graduate
We will just disagree on that point. I don't want to get to off subject on the thread.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Classical theism posits one will in the Trinity. Grudem/Ware have Jesus submitting his will (pre-incarnation) the Father.
Grant
Puritan Board Graduate
I think you are smelling what I am stepping in.
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Each one of the Trinity would have their own minds, but would always be in total agreement , correct?
So why couldn't each have a Will, but always be agreeing all of the time?
Each one of them have a will, and each having the very will of God?
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arapahoepark
Puritan Board Professor
If they are one essence, they would have one will. Otherwise, logically it goes to polytheism.
Grant
Puritan Board Graduate
David this is dangerous. There is one will.
Yes, but they would each have their own willl, with each One having very will of God, correct?
All three of the trinity are fully God, but each One has their own mind and will, but always in full agreement?
Grant
Puritan Board Graduate
No sir...
I think that I am not stating very well my understanding on this issue. Each member of the Trinity are all fully God, and each One of them having the same mind and will, as that would be the very mind and will of God.No sir...
Ask Mr. Religion
Flatly Unflappable
The thread is is re-ploughing ground covered elsewhere:
https://www.puritanboard.com/thread...of-the-son-debate-where-are-things-now.92059/
The thread above contains plenty of online references to the individuals being discussed, the terminology being used, etc., that can actually be quoted from when making summary statements about "who believes what and why" or to understand what the terms at play mean.
Please take the time to carefully review the previous thread.
https://www.puritanboard.com/thread...of-the-son-debate-where-are-things-now.92059/
The thread above contains plenty of online references to the individuals being discussed, the terminology being used, etc., that can actually be quoted from when making summary statements about "who believes what and why" or to understand what the terms at play mean.
Please take the time to carefully review the previous thread.
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
Nope. That's polytheism.
Grant
Puritan Board Graduate
The doctrine of the trinity can be tricky. It is very easy to error on our thoughts of the Godhead. I usually just try to stick to the definitions given in the Westminster Confession/Catechism. I am not saying you are in sin with your comments per se...but rather (based on your comments)..you need to be careful as we all do an tread lightly.
Chapter II
Of God, and of the Holy Trinity
I. There is but one only,[1] living, and true God,[2] who is infinite in being and perfection,[3] a most pure spirit,[4] invisible,[5] without body, parts,[6] or passions;[7] immutable,[8] immense,[9] eternal,[10] incomprehensible,[11] almighty,[12] most wise,[13] most holy,[14] most free,[15] most absolute;[16] working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will,[17] for His own glory;[18] most loving,[19] gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin;[20] the rewarder of them that diligently seek Him;[21] and withal, most just, and terrible in His judgments,[22] hating all sin,[23] and who will by no means clear the guilty.[24]
II. God has all life,[25] glory,[26] goodness,[27] blessedness,[28] in and of Himself; and is alone in and unto Himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creatures which He has made,[29] nor deriving any glory from them,[30] but only manifesting His own glory in, by, unto, and upon them. He is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things;[31] and has most sovereign dominion over them, to do by them, for them, or upon them whatsoever Himself pleases.[32] In His sight all things are open and manifest,[33] His knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature,[34] so as nothing is to Him contingent, or uncertain.[35] He is most holy in all His counsels, in all His works, and in all His commands.[36] To Him is due from angels and men, and every other creature, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience He is pleased to require of them.[37]
III. In the unity of the Godhead there be three Persons of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.[38] The Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; [39] the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son. [40]
Chapter II
Of God, and of the Holy Trinity
I. There is but one only,[1] living, and true God,[2] who is infinite in being and perfection,[3] a most pure spirit,[4] invisible,[5] without body, parts,[6] or passions;[7] immutable,[8] immense,[9] eternal,[10] incomprehensible,[11] almighty,[12] most wise,[13] most holy,[14] most free,[15] most absolute;[16] working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will,[17] for His own glory;[18] most loving,[19] gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin;[20] the rewarder of them that diligently seek Him;[21] and withal, most just, and terrible in His judgments,[22] hating all sin,[23] and who will by no means clear the guilty.[24]
II. God has all life,[25] glory,[26] goodness,[27] blessedness,[28] in and of Himself; and is alone in and unto Himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creatures which He has made,[29] nor deriving any glory from them,[30] but only manifesting His own glory in, by, unto, and upon them. He is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things;[31] and has most sovereign dominion over them, to do by them, for them, or upon them whatsoever Himself pleases.[32] In His sight all things are open and manifest,[33] His knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature,[34] so as nothing is to Him contingent, or uncertain.[35] He is most holy in all His counsels, in all His works, and in all His commands.[36] To Him is due from angels and men, and every other creature, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience He is pleased to require of them.[37]
III. In the unity of the Godhead there be three Persons of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.[38] The Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; [39] the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son. [40]
Grant
Puritan Board Graduate
Mr. Religion,
I agree. Let's get back to the OP. And hopefully Chris will respond with his position and his thoughts on the OP article.
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
Eternal Functional Subordination. I think that was the view of Mike Ovey and others, which some claim is supposed to be different from ESS (though I am not entirely sure how).
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
Christopher, that is what I have found as well. While I have generally agreed with the opponents of ESS/EFS, they have tended to condemn anyone who used the language of eternal submission/subordination as if they were an Arian. As I understand it, that supposition is not accurate.
C. M. Sheffield
Puritan Board Graduate
I have endeavored to engage thoughtfully with the people in this thread. No, I suppose I haven't laid out a detailed statements of my views, but that wasn't what the OP asked for; and to my knowledge, no one else has done that either.
As for my views, I agree with complementarianism as expreseed in the Danvers statement. I see nothing inherently unorthodox about ESS/EFS so long as it is properly qualified as relating to the Divine economy and not essence.
Dr Grudem fully holds to the doctrine of Jesus being fully God.
Do you see Jesus as being subordinate to the Father while just here upon the earth, or from all Eternity?
I am going to stick from now on the 1689 Confession take on the Trinity.
Chapter 2: Of God and of the Holy Trinity
1._____The Lord our God is but one only living and true God; whose subsistence is in and of himself, infinite in being and perfection; whose essence cannot be comprehended by any but himself; a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions, who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; who is immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, every way infinite, most holy, most wise, most free, most absolute; working all things according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will for his own glory; most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek him, and withal most just and terrible in his judgments, hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty.
( 1 Corinthians 8:4, 6; Deuteronomy 6:4; Jeremiah 10:10; Isaiah 48:12; Exodus 3:14; John 4:24; 1 Timothy 1:17; Deuteronomy 4:15, 16; Malachi 3:6; 1 Kings 8:27; Jeremiah 23:23; Psalms 90:2; Genesis 17:1; Isaiah 6:3; Psalms 115:3; Isaiah 46:10; Proverbs 16:4; Romans 11:36; Exodus 34:6, 7; Hebrews 11:6; Nehemiah 9:32, 33; Psalms 5:5, 6; Exodus 34:7; Nahum 1:2, 3 )
2._____God, having all life, glory, goodness, blessedness, in and of himself, is alone in and unto himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creature which he hath made, nor deriving any glory from them, but only manifesting his own glory in, by, unto, and upon them; he is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things, and he hath most sovereign dominion over all creatures, to do by them, for them, or upon them, whatsoever himself pleaseth; in his sight all things are open and manifest, his knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature, so as nothing is to him contingent or uncertain; he is most holy in all his counsels, in all his works, and in all his commands; to him is due from angels and men, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience, as creatures they owe unto the Creator, and whatever he is further pleased to require of them.
( John 5:26; Psalms 148:13; Psalms 119:68; Job 22:2, 3; Romans 11:34-36; Daniel 4:25, 34, 35; Hebrews 4:13; Ezekiel 11:5; Acts 15:18; Psalms 145:17; Revelation 5:12-14 )
3._____ In this divine and infinite Being there are three subsistences, the Father, the Word or Son, and Holy Spirit, of one substance, power, and eternity, each having the whole divine essence, yet the essence undivided: the Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son; all infinite, without beginning, therefore but one God, who is not to be divided in nature and being, but distinguished by several peculiar relative properties and personal relations; which doctrine of the Trinity is the foundation of all our communion with God, and comfortable dependence on him.
( 1 John 5:7; Matthew 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Exodus 3:14; John 14:11; 1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:14,18; John 15:26; Galatians 4:6 )
RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
No one denies that Grudem believes he holds that. We are saying that his conclusion (Jesus is God) is somewhat in tension with what he has written.
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