Self-forgiveness?

[ServantofGod]

Is there any Biblical basis for/validity in the idea of "forgiving ones self?"

 

[DMcFadden]

Yeah, it's right up there with the "command" to love yourself. Cf. John Piper on that subject.

More seriously, I would suggest (tentatively) that failure to "forgive onself" is a refusal to accept the work of Christ on your behalf. In that sense, yes, we should "forgive ourselves." However, as it is usually presented, it fits in with a lot of the psychobabble of the day.

 

[VictorBravo]

Well, I think it's a matter of perspective. We certainly don't want to be guilty of selfishness or selfiness as some of the worthies of old termed it. When we believe in forgiveness, the focal point should be what Christ has done, and not what we feel. Off the cuff, I would say an inability to "forgive oneself," just as an inability to forgive a repentant brother or sister, is to have a low and blasphemous view of God's promise to forgive those who repent and believe the Gospel.

Josh, that reminded me of a thought I had about myself: not wanting to forgive myself is just another form of self-justification. It's warped, indeed: "See, God, I expect so much from myself that I must really be good, because I'm so disgusted at being bad. . . ."

In other words, it is not the same thing as repentant shame for our evil acts, but instead a way to prove something. It can become obsessive, and it always takes our focus from our Redeemer.

 

[Pilgrim's Progeny]

I go with Charles Simeon on this one as noted by Piper in his bio sketch and quoted below:

With this sweet hope of ultimate acceptance with God, I have always enjoyed much cheerfulness before men; but I have at the same time laboured incessantly to cultivate the deepest humiliation before God. I have never thought that the circumstance of God's having forgiven me was any reason why I should forgive myself; on the contrary, I have always judged it better to loathe myself the more, in proportion as I was assured that God was pacified towards me That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.
Ezek 16:63 (KJV) . . . There are but two objects that I have ever desired for these forty years to behold; the one is my own vileness; and the other is, the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ: and I have always thought that they should be viewed together; just as Aaron confessed all the sins of all Israel whilst he put them on the head of the scapegoat. The disease did not keep him from applying to the remedy, nor did the remedy keep him from feeling the disease. By this I seek to be, not only humbled and thankful, but humbled in thankfulness, before my God and Saviour continually. (Carus, 518f.)

 

[Pilgrim's Progeny]

Forgiving oneself really makes no sense to me, and never has. Why would this even be necessary?

 

[Pilgrim's Progeny]

Forgiving oneself really makes no sense to me, and never has. Why would this even be necessary?

Are you better than God? If God forgive you, ought not you forgive yourself?

I just don't see the necessity, God does not tell us to forgive ourselves, though he does tell us to forgive others. I guess I am saying that whether I forgive myself or do not it does not matter, I do not see any reason to do so. I have no problem here. I sin, I confess, I find joy in God's forgiving me. Forgiving myself has no effect or affect. A man can forgive himself all day long, yet the only forgiveness that means anything is God's. I suppose I am not as self conscientious as some. I am my own worst enemy, forgiving me will not make it any less a reality.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

I think the better question would be what to do with feelings of guilt. A very bad theology looks at this symptom and concludes that we just need to learn how to forgive ourselves or convince ourselves that the guilt we're feeling is produced by cultural expectations.

But, if we have sinned against God, we ought to feel guilty for it apart from His grace. The solution for the unbeliever's guilt is to recognize the penalty for sin, despise of the self to atone for it (i.e. despise of the idea that I can atone my own guilt by forgiving myself), and flee to the only One who has taken the Curse away on the Cross.

Thus, there is a case to be made that some guilt is warranted.

I think Joshua makes a good point about those of us who are in Christ. If we have humbly repented of that sin then to keep going back to the Lord to ask forgiveness for the same sin is, in one sense, blasphemous. It is really a matter of unbelief at that point. Rather than asking God to forgive us for the same sin, pray that He would forgive us for our little faith and to help us to trust His Word that He forgives the sins of all who are found in Christ Jesus.

We obviously don't get a free pass from guilty feelings as Christians. We don't want our hearts to grow calloused to such things and just throw our unrepentant sins before the Lord assuming away the seriousness of our sins. But, having repented in tears to our Heavenly Father, we need to believe the assurance found in His Word that He is faithful to forgive the sins of all united to Christ by faith. We pray then, finally, that the peace of God would guard our hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.

 

[Poimen]

The Bible commands us to love our neighbours as ourselves but it does not command us to love ourselves.

Similarly we are to forgive others, but we cannot forgive ourselves because, by its very nature, forgiveness is an outward act not inward or introspective.

 

[Pilgrim's Progeny]

I think Joshua makes a good point about those of us who are in Christ. If we have humbly repented of that sin then to keep going back to the Lord to ask forgiveness for the same sin is, in one sense, blasphemous. It is really a matter of unbelief at that point. Rather than asking God to forgive us for the same sin, pray that He would forgive us for our little faith and to help us to trust His Word that He forgives the sins of all who are found in Christ Jesus.

The question is of forgiving oneself. Is it blasphemous to not forgive oneself?

Originally Posted by joshua
Off the cuff, I would say an inability to "forgive oneself," just as an inability to forgive a repentant brother or sister, is to have a low and blasphemous view of God's promise to forgive those who repent and believe the Gospel.

We all know it would be blasphemous to not believe the forgiveness of God. I think only in the last 100 years has this idea of forgiving oneself, as a virtue, evolved in the Church. Answer this, do I need to believe in the forgiveness of myself towards myself to be in right standing before God?

 

[Semper Fidelis]

I think Joshua makes a good point about those of us who are in Christ. If we have humbly repented of that sin then to keep going back to the Lord to ask forgiveness for the same sin is, in one sense, blasphemous. It is really a matter of unbelief at that point. Rather than asking God to forgive us for the same sin, pray that He would forgive us for our little faith and to help us to trust His Word that He forgives the sins of all who are found in Christ Jesus.

The question is of forgiving oneself. Is it blasphemous to not forgive oneself.

I understand what the question was. I was backing up the question to the root of where the question comes from. I noted, up front, that the issue is one of guilt and the solution to guilt is *not* to forgive oneself. In fact, I should say that the idea that we forgive ourselves for Sin is blasphemous. Even the Pharisees understood that only God can forgive sin.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

I understood you from the beginning Josh. I completey agree with you. I knew the angle you were going after so I was trying to make it a bit more explicit to reinforce your comments that I thought were all very good.

 

[JBaldwin]

I can only Amen what Rich and Josh have said. But I wanted to comment about the phrase which I hear so often "I can't forgive myself" and then the answer by most is "You to have to learn to forgive yourself." In the Christian circles I have walked in, the phrase does not mean literally "forgive yourself." It means, "I can't let go of the guilt I feel because of what I've done."

I guess what I'm trying to say is that in the minds of many forgiving yourself is the same as letting go of the guilt. And the answer to that has already been stated much better by others. We find our forgiveness, our ability to let go of the guilt, in Christ.

 

[Pilgrim's Progeny]

I go with Charles Simeon on this one as noted by Piper in his bio sketch and quoted below:

With this sweet hope of ultimate acceptance with God, I have always enjoyed much cheerfulness before men; but I have at the same time laboured incessantly to cultivate the deepest humiliation before God. I have never thought that the circumstance of God's having forgiven me was any reason why I should forgive myself; on the contrary, I have always judged it better to loathe myself the more, in proportion as I was assured that God was pacified towards me That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.
Ezek 16:63 (KJV) . . . There are but two objects that I have ever desired for these forty years to behold; the one is my own vileness; and the other is, the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ: and I have always thought that they should be viewed together; just as Aaron confessed all the sins of all Israel whilst he put them on the head of the scapegoat. The disease did not keep him from applying to the remedy, nor did the remedy keep him from feeling the disease. By this I seek to be, not only humbled and thankful, but humbled in thankfulness, before my God and Saviour continually. (Carus, 518f.)

Any thoughts on Simeon?

 

[JBaldwin]

If he is saying we should walk around with the feeling of guilt (which is not what appears he is saying), I don't agree with him, because "there is therefore now NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." We do not have to live with the guilt.

However, if he is saying that we should always be aware of our total sinfulness, I couldn't agree with him more. Paul the apostle was so aware of his sinfulness that by the time he was near the end of this life, he was calling himself the "chief of sinners." That is healthy view of one's self in my opinion.

 

[Pilgrim's Progeny]

If he is saying we should walk around with the feeling of guilt (which is not what appears he is saying), I don't agree with him, because "there is therefore now NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." We do not have to live with the guilt.

However, if he is saying that we should always be aware of our total sinfulness, I couldn't agree with him more. Paul the apostle was so aware of his sinfulness that by the time he was near the end of this life, he was calling himself the "chief of sinners." That is healthy view of one's self in my opinion.

That is how I percieve it as well. Today's notion of "self-forgiveness" seems to carry the connotation of "I,m forgiven, so I am not all that bad". I thinks it tends to lead one to view his sin as a mere inconvenience instead of a henious crime as Kennedy noted. I always view myself as a pardoned criminal. I take no time to ponder "self-forgiveness", in light of God's forgiveness I find it all together unnecessary.

 

[VictorBravo]

If he is saying we should walk around with the feeling of guilt (which is not what appears he is saying), I don't agree with him, because "there is therefore now NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." We do not have to live with the guilt.

However, if he is saying that we should always be aware of our total sinfulness, I couldn't agree with him more. Paul the apostle was so aware of his sinfulness that by the time he was near the end of this life, he was calling himself the "chief of sinners." That is healthy view of one's self in my opinion.

That is how I percieve it as well. Today's notion of "self-forgiveness" seems to carry the connotation of "I,m forgiven, so I am not all that bad". I thinks it tends to lead one to view his sin as a mere inconvenience instead of a henious crime as Kennedy noted. I always view myself as a pardoned criminal. I take no time to ponder "self-forgiveness", in light of God's forgiveness I find it all together unnecessary.

Maybe it is a generational thing. I do not really run across this form of "self-forgiveness", but I gather it is very much out there from listening to others. In that context, yes, "self-forgiveness" is indeed a form of antinomianism or denial of sin. I recall a variation of it from the "I'm OK You're OK" 70s.

I was thinking more along the lines of the hyper-critical person who refuses to "forgive himself" and carries it as a badge of honor. The thinking goes like this, "I have such high standards that I hold myself to. That gives me justification to hold everyone else to those standards too." His refusal to tolerate weakness in himself grants him (in his mind) the moral authority to refuse to forgive others.

But, I agree, the idea of "forgiving yourself" is unbiblical and meaningless. But the idea of acknowledging your sin, expressing repentance, and being grateful at having been forgiven is very important. It keeps us humble, gives us the ability to lift up others, and glorifies God.

I've said, probably too many times, that there is a balance required. We should understand that our sins are grievous and we should repent of our wickedness. But we have no place for condemning ourselves or others because we are not the proper judge nor the accuser. We know there is an accuser, accusing day and night (Rev. 12:10), and we know there is a righteous judge.

While beating our breasts in asking for forgiveness before God, let us not fall for becoming our own accuser and judge, and then compound the error by trying to grant ourselves pardon.

 

[Pilgrim's Progeny]

If he is saying we should walk around with the feeling of guilt (which is not what appears he is saying), I don't agree with him, because "there is therefore now NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." We do not have to live with the guilt.

However, if he is saying that we should always be aware of our total sinfulness, I couldn't agree with him more. Paul the apostle was so aware of his sinfulness that by the time he was near the end of this life, he was calling himself the "chief of sinners." That is healthy view of one's self in my opinion.

That is how I percieve it as well. Today's notion of "self-forgiveness" seems to carry the connotation of "I,m forgiven, so I am not all that bad". I thinks it tends to lead one to view his sin as a mere inconvenience instead of a henious crime as Kennedy noted. I always view myself as a pardoned criminal. I take no time to ponder "self-forgiveness", in light of God's forgiveness I find it all together unnecessary.

Maybe it is a generational thing. I do not really run across this form of "self-forgiveness", but I gather it is very much out there from listening to others. In that context, yes, "self-forgiveness" is indeed a form of antinomianism or denial of sin. I recall a variation of it from the "I'm OK You're OK" 70s.

I was thinking more along the lines of the hyper-critical person who refuses to "forgive himself" and carries it as a badge of honor. The thinking goes like this, "I have such high standards that I hold myself to. That gives me justification to hold everyone else to those standards too." His refusal to tolerate weakness in himself grants him (in his mind) the moral authority to refuse to forgive others.

But, I agree, the idea of "forgiving yourself" is unbiblical and meaningless. But the idea of acknowledging your sin, expressing repentance, and being grateful at having been forgiven is very important. It keeps us humble, gives us the ability to lift up others, and glorifies God.

I've said, probably too many times, that there is a balance required. We should understand that our sins are grievous and we should repent of our wickedness. But we have no place for condemning ourselves or others because we are not the proper judge nor the accuser. We know there is an accuser, accusing day and night (Rev. 12:10), and we know there is a righteous judge.

While beating our breasts in asking for forgiveness before God, let us not fall for becoming our own accuser and judge, and then compound the error by trying to grant ourselves pardon.

That was well put. I think your response balances the scale.

 

[VictorBravo]

While beating our breasts in asking for forgiveness before God, let us not fall for becoming our own accuser and judge, and then compound the error by trying to grant ourselves pardon.

I suppose from now on, we'll just have to use a million qualifications to be clearer, Vic.

Maybe we could do like some contracts do: "subject to the standard qualifications, provisions, and caveats stated in post # _______, which is herein incorporated by reference."

 

[Pilgrim's Progeny]

While beating our breasts in asking for forgiveness before God, let us not fall for becoming our own accuser and judge, and then compound the error by trying to grant ourselves pardon.

I suppose from now on, we'll just have to use a million qualifications to be clearer, Vic.

That's why I like this board. I makes room for those qualifications.