Forgiveness of a Murderer

Discussion in 'General discussions' started by scottmaciver, Oct 4, 2019.

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  1. scottmaciver

    scottmaciver Puritan Board Sophomore

    Someone sent on a video, in relation to Amber Guyger, an ex-cop who killed an innocent man & claimed that she thought she was in her own flat and that he was an intruder.

    See this video (Here) of the murdered man's brother in court, forgiving his brother's killer. I think that we've discussed similar incidents of forgiveness on the PB before. It is quite impactful.

    Most of the content of the video isn't even mentioned in the BBC's report (Here), no surprise there. Was the reporting any more full in America?
  2. VictorBravo

    VictorBravo Administrator Staff Member

    It played on news feeds everywhere.

    But I suspect it already is being washed away from attention by the every-streaming flow of other important things, like baseball standings and football player scandals, not even mentioning politics.
  3. Reformed Covenanter

    Reformed Covenanter Puritanboard Commissioner

    There was a discussion on this subject on The David Knight Show (Infowars; though someone else was standing in for the normal host), which may be of interest to you.
  4. Tom Hart

    Tom Hart Puritan Board Senior

    The BBC has an opinion article on this that reads as though it was witten by an angry teenager.

    It turns out a lot of people are mad about this, since black Americans are "oppressed" and "terrorized" every day. So they don't want to see forgiveness. They want revenge.

    Twitter is astir, of course, but that's just Twitter. A hive of know-nothings that relishes the sound of its own voice.
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  5. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    Question: Is it still called murder if she did not mean to shoot the person? Would this be manslaughter or negligent homicide? Murder means intent to kill, right?
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  6. Jeri Tanner

    Jeri Tanner Moderator Staff Member

    My question exactly!
  7. RJ Spencer

    RJ Spencer Puritan Board Freshman

    The mother of the victim said that we should not misconstrue the term
    "forgiveness" they still believe that the woman officer should've gotten a harsher sentence. And I agree, just because you forgive her doesn't mean that she shouldn't be held accountable. I mean she admitted to walking into the wrong apartment and shooting a man in cold blood, but she only got 10 years and will probably be out in 5.
  8. RJ Spencer

    RJ Spencer Puritan Board Freshman

    She was found guilty of murder so...
  9. earl40

    earl40 Puritan Board Professor

    It was not murder. :)
  10. RJ Spencer

    RJ Spencer Puritan Board Freshman

    You can't prove that. The story is that she got off on the wrong floor and went to the wrong apartment and killed the man after mistakenly thinking that he was in her apartment. But for all we know, she had intended to kill the man all along. Who's to say what her intent was? The jury. And they, knowing the difference between murder and the lesser charges, chose to convict her of murder. Also know that her defense in court was self defense, rather than claiming that it was a case of mistaken identity or mistaken apartment.
  11. My Pilgrim Way

    My Pilgrim Way Puritan Board Freshman

    She testified that she did intend to kill him. Any officer that draws their gun does so with the intent to's how they're trained. However, she messed up by not calling for backup. Lethal force is supposed to be a last resort.

    Honestly, I thought she would have been found guilty of manslaughter. However, she did say she intended to kill him, and I believe that is what the jury heard, and that does fit the definition of murder. The jury was very lenient in their sentencing (more in line with a manslaughter conviction) when she could have faced as much as 99 yrs.
  12. Jeri Tanner

    Jeri Tanner Moderator Staff Member

    I’ve been reading a bit about the case, had to get on duck duck go to find some actual facts about what happened that night. This seems to me to have been a tragic mistake, in no way intentional on the part of the officer. She had just gotten off a 14 hour shift and having parked on the wrong floor of her building she entered the apartment directly above her own. Whether she handled the situation the best is another question but it seems pretty obvious that she thought the victim was an intruder in her apartment. In another time I don’t think she would have been charged with murder...
  13. RJ Spencer

    RJ Spencer Puritan Board Freshman

    Perhaps if she used that as her defense during the trial they wouldn't have convicted her of murder. Her defense was self defense, not sure what lawyer talked her into that.
  14. Jeri Tanner

    Jeri Tanner Moderator Staff Member

    In these times and with the positioning that everyone feels they must do to appease, who knows.
  15. My Pilgrim Way

    My Pilgrim Way Puritan Board Freshman

    She missed a lot of cues that should have let her know she was on the wrong floor. She was preoccupied with sexting a fellow officer (married with children). I believe that because she was an officer, she is trained to be more observant than the average person.

    Also, she had all of her gear with her in her backback that included special gauze to stop bleeding in the field. She didn't use any of the lifesaving items she had nor did she perform CPR (she did a few chest compressions). She also had her police radio with her and could have asked for help.

    I understand why the jury convicted her of murder based on her own testimony. Perhaps if she was not a police officer, she would have been convicted of manslaughter. She did not follow her training and has more skills than the average citizen.
  16. jwithnell

    jwithnell Moderator Staff Member

    I can only trust the jury's handling of the facts. As far as the news coverage goes, the response of the victim's family seems to be widely respected. It stands in the face of the cynicism that's so widely embraced.

    On a similar note, dear friends had to petition the court for guardianship of their disabled child this week. A court official went out of his way to comment on the loving care the family has bestowed. Sometimes the world can't help but see the love we reflect from God.
  17. Jeri Tanner

    Jeri Tanner Moderator Staff Member

    Hmm, interesting. I did not see all those details in what I read, so I suppose there was a recklessness factor involved. This is about as much time as I have to even think about the case but we have a police officer in the family who would be interesting to talk to about it. Thanks for the additional details, Melissa.
  18. Contra_Mundum

    Contra_Mundum Pilgrim, Alien, Stranger Staff Member

    Either it was murder, or negligent/reckless homicide, in my dumb judgment; as opposed to manslaughter. Most of us don't know what all the options were both for charging and trying her and defending her in the State of TX. There are tactical angles to the law in such cases. The judge did inform the jury (If I recall correctly) they had the option of imposing a lesser judgment of manslaughter.

    The justice and the sentence both reflect the severity of the crime. And there is a measure of mercy in "only" serving 10yrs for wasting a man in his own living room. She disregarded procedure, and someone died. Her mistakes were compounded all the way from the accident of punching the wrong button, to unprofessional behavior, to negligent distraction, to tunnel vision. There's a moral dimension to the incident left totally out of this whole evaluation as well. But this is enough.

    If you or I charged into our own (should be) empty house, guns blazing to take out an intruder, we'd get even less consideration. It isn't a "castle" defense, if you aren't home when he breaks, in; and you hear him inside and go in for the kill. How much more is on the line, when it's his house (not yours), and you are an armed police officer with rights of takedown and arrest?

    Self-defense doesn't sound right. Granting that sounds like revictimizing the dead man and his survivors.

    But once we approve of the jury's decision--they got it pretty close to right, I think--there's still a huge approval we can give to the grace the brother showed the lady. I don't think he's carrying a grudge out of the courtroom. He walked out of there a free man. And, he gave this lady maybe the first offer of spiritual freedom she'd ever heard. In the context of her pending incarceration.

    The sorriest responses have been from SJWs who describe this Christian offer of grace as a fresh crime self-perpetuated on victims of whitey: forgiveness as a repeat of the murder. Their condemnation is just.
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  19. My Pilgrim Way

    My Pilgrim Way Puritan Board Freshman

    I watched the trial. My father was a police officer, so I know weapons aren't drawn unless you're prepared to kill and she aimed at center mass (heart) which is what they're trained to do.

    The judge prevented some of the sexts (not all) from being seen by the public in order to spare her even more public humiliation. There were also memes on her social media that didn't reflect well on her character such as things like "I wear black because I'm already dressed for your funeral" and worse. Being around officers, I know there is often a sick sense of humor but it shouldn't be this way. It's callous.

    The sad thing is that her preoccupation (adultery) likely led to a series of unfortunate decisions, and now the whole world knows about it as well as killing Mr. Jean. I have prayed that the Lord would save her and for good to come of this.

    Mr. Jean's brother statement and permission to hug her was very moving to watch. I've never seen anything like it. Same for the judge who gave her her bible and took her to John 3:16. Even the news anchors were crying.
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2019
  20. My Pilgrim Way

    My Pilgrim Way Puritan Board Freshman

    She was actually charged with manslaughter, and the grand jury's decision was that it was murder for which she was charged.

    I agree there was a lot of mercy in a 10 yr. sentence when it could have been much worse. The jury disregarded the manslaughter option based on the facts presented to them and gave a just verdict.
  21. jwithnell

    jwithnell Moderator Staff Member

    The judge is now catching some flack over bringing a Bible into the courtroom :(
  22. ZackF

    ZackF Puritan Board Graduate

    Justice and reconciliation were problematic enough for SJWs. Throw in a bible...
  23. Edward

    Edward Puritanboard Commissioner

    I'm not a Texas lawyer, but I have picked up a bit since I've lived here almost 30 years. The Texas homicide laws are a bit different that what I was used to, and her case does appear to fit within the definition. The Texas definition is so broad, the jury can go anywhere from 2 years to 99 years (or life) with the sentence.

    She didn't just bring the Bible in, she gave it to the Defendant.
  24. Jeri Tanner

    Jeri Tanner Moderator Staff Member

    Yes, I didn’t read about Texas law in particular, or really much detail at all, but from details given by Melissa it seems Guyger’s general recklessness factored hugely into the verdict? She didn’t have good cop instincts, apparently, as well as having some character and ethical issues.
  25. Ed Walsh

    Ed Walsh Puritan Board Junior

    Her sentence for murder was very slight--only 10 years. And I heard nothing about a "without parole" clause. So maybe seven years.
    Second-degree murder (without premeditation) can be from 10 to 25 years.
    The maximum penalty under federal law for involuntary manslaughter is 8 years in prison, along with fines. But a more typical sentence is 12 months.
  26. Edward

    Edward Puritanboard Commissioner

    Relevant Texas law:
    Sec. 19.02. MURDER.
    (b) A person commits an offense if he:
    (1) intentionally or knowingly causes the death of an individual;

    If the jury finds sudden passion from an adequate cause, (affirmative burden on the defendant in the sentencing phase) it is still a murder, but the sentence range is the same as for manslaughter. The jury didn't make such a finding in this case, but the sentence given would have fit either case.
  27. Contra_Mundum

    Contra_Mundum Pilgrim, Alien, Stranger Staff Member

    You'd know better than I, but wouldn't it be the case that the whiners have no leg to stand on, they are just trying to make a new case in the "court of public opinion?"

    I understand judges have a tremendous amount of discretion in their own courtrooms. Bibles have been present in courtrooms for witnesses to swear on for ages. Maybe not so much today, but is there a law now that excludes them?

    The case was completely over, the verdict in, the sentence read. It was a public space, and the judge while still an authority-figure in some sense in that room, was in that instant exercising nothing but her right as a fellow citizen and human being toward the accused/condemned woman she had recently been treating strictly as an officer of the state.

    Any criticism of her and her actions is contemptible.
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  28. RJ Spencer

    RJ Spencer Puritan Board Freshman

    It seems like more people have a problem with the fact that she hugged the defendant. I haven't heard anyone bring up the Bible in a negative way, but I have heard many BLM folks bring up the hug. They tend to view this, of course, as a white cop getting a slap on the wrist after killing a black man. But I think the sentencing had more to do with the fact that she was a tearful woman. Even in traffic court I have noticed often times that the judge will go easier on a female defendant if she shows emotion. I think many here believe the sentencing to be adequate, but she will be up for parole after 5 years. Five years for taking a life??
    Seems wrong.
  29. My Pilgrim Way

    My Pilgrim Way Puritan Board Freshman

    I fully expected to see a sentence of 20-25 yrs. In TX, a defendant can choose before the trial whether he/she wants the jury to set the sentence or the judge. She chose the jury, and the judge cannot go against their recommendation. For whatever reason, they were unanimous in the 10 yr. sentence. She could've received anywhere from 5-99 yrs.

    I don't know if they will even opt to appeal (not sure on what basis) because if she's found guilty again, she could actually receive a longer sentence than she has now.

    We may not agree with how justice is served in this life, but there is a Judge who will be righteous in His judgments. Better to be spiritually free than free from physical imprisonment.
  30. Contra_Mundum

    Contra_Mundum Pilgrim, Alien, Stranger Staff Member

    Parole is not the liberty some people who have never had any interaction with the legal system imagine it to be. It is removal from the walls of prison, but not the severe oversight of the State, at least by way of intention. This lady will be a convicted felon legally speaking probably for the rest of her life. Only a pardon of some kind can remove that stigma.

    I'm not speaking up in her defense, I'm not justifying the Jury's penalty or disparaging it. It is what it is. She has a chance to change her life for now and eternity. Pray for her, that she does. Pray for her victims (the family and friends) that they too will not be imprisoned by bitterness. Pray for the unbelievers--both the irreligious and the religious--who can't help but recoil from expressions of grace and forgiveness.

    Right now, our entire society is convulsed by a dominant and malignant philosophy that believes in GUILT, often by mere association; but not FORGIVENESS--only a never-ending series of self-loathing steps toward reeducation and acceptance of the existence of a stain that only many generations of suffering can render forgotten.
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