Question on Paedobaptism

[Scott Bushey]

Tell me this is not uncommon in PCA churches?

Earl,
Did u mean to say, 'common'?

 

[earl40]

Earl,
Did u mean to say, 'common'?

Sometimes using a double negative in a sentence is a bad thing.

What I am saying it is very very common for credos to be members of PCA churches here in Central Florida. Of course this is a personal observation which I am rather confident of.

 

[Dachaser]

Dr A.W.Miller wrote, ‘that children are not baptised in order that they may be sons and heirs of God, but because they are already considered by God as occupying that place and rank, the grace of adoption is sealed in their flesh by the rite of baptism’. Children are as much in covenant as their parents are. Baptism is a recognition of the fact that presumably the child is already in the covenant of grace. A child could be cleansed by the same purifying grace which cleanses the pollution of an adults sin.
Really there must be a consistency between the baptism of adults and that of children. Put it like this, all baptism is inevitably administered not of knowledge but of presumption. Warfield would say, that” membership in the visible church is founded on a presumptive membership in the invisible church, until its subjects by an act incompatible therewith, prove the contrary.” So that could encompass a child or a professing adult. Whilst Hodge would write, “All membership in the church, consequently all baptism as a seal of that membership, was on the basis of a presumption of election, not on the presumption of regeneration.” A profession is not more a solid basis to build upon than the divine promise. Again Warfield would state, “that if we baptise on the basis of presumption, the whole principle is yielded.”
Furthermore, the presumption of election is not founded on the children’s baptism, but their baptism is founded on the presumption in the divine promise that they belonged to the body of Christ- to the elect. To my mind, when formerly a Baptist, I hoped that my children would be saved because of my parental love for them. Now I have the sign and seal of the promise of the God who cannot lie, to rest in and plead that He fulfill it to them.

Think that a lot of the reasoning behind water baptism is determined by just who is part of the new Covenant, and so I would see it as including just those whose sins have been forgiven, received Jesus, and are now indwelt by the promised Holy Spirit. But also do see others will and do understand this issue in a different fashion.

 

[Scott Bushey]

and so I would see it as including just those whose sins have been forgiven, received Jesus, and are now indwelt by the promised Holy Spirit.

But, I believe you fail to see the inconsistency in the practice as a credo. How do you know the person u are placing the sign upon is actually one of the elect????

A confession is not adequate. History would bear witness to this fact.

 

[Scott Bushey]

Of course this is a personal observation which I am rather confident of.

I concur. I believe the choice is left up to particular PCA churches-my former PCA church did just that. I don't know about my present congregation. I will check the book of church order later.

 

[Stephen L Smith]

But, I believe you fail to see the inconsistency in the practice as a credo. How do you know the person u are placing the sign upon is actually one of the elect????

That argument is a two edged sword. Paedobaptists baptise children of believers. How do you know the child you are baptising is the child of a believer?

 

[Scott Bushey]

That argument is a two edged sword. Paedobaptists baptise children of believers. How do you know the child you are baptising is the child of a believer?

We don’t know flawlessly- that’s the point, and we still place the sign, because it’s commanded and has never been based on any subjective rationale, outside of a confession.

 

[Jeri Tanner]

The promise is for the professing believer and his/her children. It's a conditional promise, we must continue in Christ's love (John 15) to the end.


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[Beezer]

What I am saying it is very very common for credos to be members of PCA churches here in Central Florida. Of course this is a personal observation which I am rather confident of.

I agree. It is very common among PCA churches near me in Central Virginia as well. I had a PCA TE tell me the PCA's growth as a denomination was owed to the Baptists that have steadily joined over the years.

 

[Dachaser]

But, I believe you fail to see the inconsistency in the practice as a credo. How do you know the person u are placing the sign upon is actually one of the elect????

A confession is not adequate. History would bear witness to this fact.

The person receiving the rite has to make a credible profession of having received Jesus through faith, as evidenced by how they understand the process of salvation, who Jesus really is, and evidence by some evidence of having to some degree a changed life now in Christ.
I would just apply the same principles in the scripture of how one can know that we are now saved and secured in and by the Trinity Themselves.

 

[Dachaser]

The promise is for the professing believer and his/her children. It's a conditional promise, we must continue in Christ's love (John 15) to the end.


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That is the defining question, just who is included in the NC and able to now receive the water baptism.

 

[Scott Bushey]

If you could, please show me a verse abrogating placing the sign on infants anywhere in scripture.

matt 19:14
14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Dachaser]

If you could, please show me a verse abrogating placing the sign on infants anywhere in scripture.

matt 19:14
14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

The mark of one being defined as now being under and in the NC is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of promise, as the Water Baptism is an outward affirmation of that already accomplished internal working by the Spirit in us.

 

[Gforce9]

I'm willing to pay up to $150 for a pair of Regeneration Goggles if anyone is selling......

 

[Scott Bushey]

The mark of one being defined as now being under and in the NC is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of promise, as the Water Baptism is an outward affirmation of that already accomplished internal working by the Spirit in us.

You do understand that all believers, never mind the timeframe, all had to have the 'Holy Spirit of Promise', else how would they not immediately apostatize the faith?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I'm willing to pay up to $150 for a pair of Regeneration Goggles if anyone is selling......

I'll see your $150, and raise $100.
Call.

 

[Cymro]

How do you know David, that the mark you are confident in, ie, the indwelling of the Spirit in another person, and the attesting of it by baptism, is correctly discernible by you and a true confession by that person? I suggest you can only accept it by presuming that it is so. The other disciples took the confession of Judas as bona fide and were wrong: Demas hoodwinked even the great Apostle Paul until he went back into the world:the Hebrews who forsook the assembling of themselves together were accounted Christians until they rejected the means of grace : the Spirit came upon Saul and he prophesied but he revealed that the root of the matter was not in him. As you would accept by presumption a candidate for baptism on his confession, the paedobaptist would exercise faith in the covenant promise of God that He would be God to his children. The children are members of the church before baptism, and by that sign and seal of the promise, the parents presume they are Christian until they sometimes prove otherwise.

 

[Gforce9]

I'll see your $150, and raise $100.
Call.

Well, I can see if I'm ever to lay hold of a pair of the ever-elusive spectacles, I'm going to have to play hardball!

If anyone has a pair of New in Box goggles, a pair that has never gazed upon the soul of man, I'm willing to go to $275....final offer

 

[Cymro]

Steve, you ask how do you know the child is a child of a believer? Well the same way as you know the confession of and adult confessor is true! See my post above.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Well, I can see if I'm ever to lay hold of a pair of the ever-elusive spectacles, I'm going to have to play hardball!

If anyone has a pair of New in Box goggles, a pair that has never gazed upon the soul of man, I'm willing to go to $275....final offer

Sold:

 

[Cymro]

Partricks re-generation goggles are based upon a previous generation goggles round about Genesis 12, 15, 17! Guaranteed not to give optical illusions, but twenty twenty perspicacity.

 

[Dachaser]

How do you know David, that the mark you are confident in, ie, the indwelling of the Spirit in another person, and the attesting of it by baptism, is correctly discernible by you and a true confession by that person? I suggest you can only accept it by presuming that it is so. The other disciples took the confession of Judas as bona fide and were wrong: Demas hoodwinked even the great Apostle Paul until he went back into the world:the Hebrews who forsook the assembling of themselves together were accounted Christians until they rejected the means of grace : the Spirit came upon Saul and he prophesied but he revealed that the root of the matter was not in him. As you would accept by presumption a candidate for baptism on his confession, the paedobaptist would exercise faith in the covenant promise of God that He would be God to his children. The children are members of the church before baptism, and by that sign and seal of the promise, the parents presume they are Christian until they sometimes prove otherwise.

Water Baptism in the NC though was the outward sign/symbol of the work already that had been accomplished by the Holy Spirit to have saved the sinner, as a testimony to the truth of now having new life in Jesus Christ.

 

[Jeri Tanner]

Water Baptism in the NC though was the outward sign/symbol of the work already that had been accomplished by the Holy Spirit to have saved the sinner, as a testimony to the truth of now having new life in Jesus Christ.

That's exactly what Presbyterians don't believe Scripture teaches, David; our position is that baptism doesn't mean what Baptists believe it means. That's what I came to see as a Baptist.

You need to start using Scripture fo back up your statements. If you search through old threads you'll see how the Scriptures have been discussed.


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[Gforce9]

Water Baptism in the NC though was the outward sign/symbol of the work already that had been accomplished by the Holy Spirit to have saved the sinner, as a testimony to the truth of now having new life in Jesus Christ.

I think what you're missing in the previous posts, David, is that no one can know for sure what the Spirit has wrought.....no one. One can only "best guess", which neither inerrant nor infallible. When you write that you only baptize those in whom the Spirit works, the question immediately comes, how do you know? The answer is that you don't know, nor does any human being.....

 

[Scott Bushey]

Water Baptism in the NC though was the outward sign/symbol of the work already that had been accomplished by the Holy Spirit to have saved the sinner, as a testimony to the truth of now having new life in Jesus Christ.

You still fail to answer the question:
"How do you know David, that the mark you are confident in, ie, the indwelling of the Spirit in another person, and the attesting of it by baptism, is correctly discernible by you and a true confession by that person?"

 

[Scott Bushey]

I think what you're missing in the previous posts, David, is that no one can know for sure what the Spirit has wrought.....no one. One can only "best guess", which neither inerrant nor infallible. When you write that you only baptize those in whom the Spirit works, the question immediately comes, how do you know? The answer is that you don't know, nor does any human being.....

Which is nothing more than presumption. I have made mention, as well as Jeff (above), what do u do with Demas, Ananias and his wife, Judas and Simon Magus?

 

[Cymro]

David, David, was not Judas baptised? Was not Demas ? Were not the Hebrews? Was not Saul circumcised? Yet they received the outward symbol, which did not prove they had the Holy Spirit.

 

[Dachaser]

That's exactly what Presbyterians don't believe Scripture teaches, David; our position is that baptism doesn't mean what Baptists believe it means. That's what I came to see as a Baptist.

You need to start using Scripture fo back up your statements. If you search through old threads you'll see how the Scriptures have been discussed.


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The Apostle Paul makes it clear to us in 2 Corinthians 1:21-22, that only those who heard and believed in Jesus were the ones to receive the promised Holy Spirit, and to be indwelt and sealed by Him unto salvation.

 

[Dachaser]

I think what you're missing in the previous posts, David, is that no one can know for sure what the Spirit has wrought.....no one. One can only "best guess", which neither inerrant nor infallible. When you write that you only baptize those in whom the Spirit works, the question immediately comes, how do you know? The answer is that you don't know, nor does any human being.....

True, but the basic definition of one being found in the NC would be to be now in Christ, and having received the Holy Spirit, as the Spirit Himself places us into Christ and baptized us into body of Christ.

 

[Dachaser]

David, David, was not Judas baptised? Was not Demas ? Were not the Hebrews? Was not Saul circumcised? Yet they received the outward symbol, which did not prove they had the Holy Spirit.

There were no doubt some not saved who have been immersed in the water, but my understanding of biblical truth would still be that the ones to get dunked are the ones already saved and sealed into Jesus by the Holy Spirit.