Pope Francis claims that a committed atheist was saved

Status
Not open for further replies.
Haeralis

Haeralis

Puritan Board Freshman
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend...hether-his-dead-atheist-father-was-in-heaven/


Pope Francis said:
"I asked Emanuele's permission to say publicly the question he asked me and he said yes. So I will tell you. Emanuele asked: 'A little while ago my father passed away. He was a nonbeliever, but he had all four of his children baptized. He was a good man. Is dad in heaven?' His father wasn't a believer, but he had his children baptized. He had a good heart. And he (Emanuele) wonders if his father, because he wasn't a believer, is in heaven. The one who says who goes to heaven is God. But what is God's heart like with a dad like that? What? What do you think? (pause) A father's heart. God has a dad's heart. And with a dad who was not a believer, but who baptized his children, and gave them that bravura, do you think God would be able to leave him far from Himself? Do you think? Speak up, come on. (Crowd answers, 'No.') Does God abandon His children? (Crowd answers, 'No.') Does God abandon His children when they are good? (Crowd answers, 'No.') There, Emanuele, that is the answer. God surely was proud of your father because it is easier as a believer to baptize your children than to baptize them when you are not a believer. Surely this pleased God very much. Talk to your dad; pray to your dad."―Pope Francis, 15 April 2018
Click to expand...
It used to be the case that Rome taught that faith was at least a necessary ingredient of salvation. No longer.

Pope Francis claimed that God was proud of an atheist who baptized his children and suggested that this work saved him even though he lacked faith.

I understand that it would be terribly difficult to tell a young child that their father is in Hell, but you do not have to completely repudiate biblical truth to comfort a child in their time of need. You use this as an opportunity to evangelize and tell them that there is a Savior who loves his people and will save them from death. Francis, did not do so, and clearly asserts salvation by works alone here.

The Papacy is an AntiChrist institution which has deceived so many people. It is so tragic that my Roman Catholic friends want to follow this man. We have to routinely pray for those who are entrenched in this man-made, false religion.
 
Tom Hart

Tom Hart

Puritan Board Senior
Haeralis said:
I understand that it would be terribly difficult to tell a young child that their father is in Hell, but you do not have to completely repudiate biblical truth to comfort a child in their time of need.
Click to expand...
The Papists haven't been too interested in biblical truth for a long, long time.
 
JimmyH

JimmyH

Puritan Board Senior
Tom Hart said:
The Papists haven't been too interested in biblical truth for a long, long time.
Click to expand...
I agree with that assessment, but this fellow is in a class by himself. The expression usually applied in politics, 'loose cannon' is brought to mind when I read of his latest statements.
 
Haeralis

Haeralis

Puritan Board Freshman
Tom Hart said:
The Papists haven't been too interested in biblical truth for a long, long time.
Click to expand...
I'm aware of that, and it's quite depressing. It's a "Christianity" without the Bible and now, apparently, officially without any need of Christ.
 
Tom Hart

Tom Hart

Puritan Board Senior
Francis appears to advocate a "many paths, one mountain" view. There are many religions, and even non-religions, but all of these lead to heaven.

I do not see how an honest Catholic could say that such a teaching is in line with historic Roman Catholicism. All it takes is a conparison of Trent and Vatican I with the theologically liberal Vatican II. As I see it, the most consistent Roman Catholics are the ultra-traditionalist sedevacantists.

To a Christian, Francis's claims should be alarming, even in spite of all of the other heresy and blasphemy in the Roman system. If a man, an atheist, is saved on the basis of his being "a good man" (whatever that means) then where does that leave Christ? What of the cross? Did Christ die in vain?

This is more akin even to Pelagianism than historic Roman Catholicism.
 
Tom Hart

Tom Hart

Puritan Board Senior
Haeralis said:
I'm aware of that, and it's quite depressing. It's a "Christianity" without the Bible and now, apparently, officially without any need of Christ.
Click to expand...
They've held for a while that Christ is not really needed. The thinking is that even a heathen's "good works" are done, somehow, in Christ.
 
Gforce9

Gforce9

Puritan Board Junior
JimmyH said:
I agree with that assessment, but this fellow is in a class by himself. The expression usually applied in politics, 'loose cannon' is brought to mind when I read of his latest statements.
Click to expand...
I have extended family that is educated R.C.'s. Whenever I ask about Francis, they put their head in their hand and nod, side-to-side.....
 
D

DTK

Puritan Board Junior
Tom Hart said:
The Papists haven't been too interested in biblical truth for a long, long time.
Click to expand...
Indeed, as I've often noted to myself - Romanists don't sweat that Bible stuff. Owen noted that nothing drove him farther from Rome than the treatment that the Bible receives in their hands...
John Owen (1616-1683): He that shall read what the Scripture testifies of itself,—that is, what God doth of it,—and what the ancients speak concerning it, and shall himself have any acquaintance with the nature and excellency of it, must needs shrink extremely when he comes to see the Romanist’s discourse about it,—indeed against it. For my part, I can truly profess, that no one thing doth so alienate my mind from the present Roman religion as this treatment of the word of God. The Works of John Owen, Animadversions on a Treatise Entitled Fiat Lux, ed. William H. Goold, (Edinburgh: The Banner of Truth Trust, Third printing, 1977), vol. XIV, p. 36.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
scottmaciver

scottmaciver

Puritan Board Sophomore
You feel so much for the young boy, having lost his dad at such a young age. The pope seems to speak so warmly and kindly, but there is nothing there but deception and false teaching. Desperately sad.
 
Last edited:
Tom Hart

Tom Hart

Puritan Board Senior
TylerRay said:
Now that I think about it--with a pope like that, who needs Catholicism?
Click to expand...
Maybe it's the best way, they'll say (there's certainly a lot of glitter), but, still, a kindly Hindu is just as likely to get to paradise.

You'd think there should be a bit more time in purgatory for unbelievers, but Mr. Bergoglio's words indicated no such thing.

Actually, that raises another question. Shouldn't that boy's father have been in purgatory? He must have been a very saintly atheist indeed if he skipped all those years of torment.
 
Gforce9

Gforce9

Puritan Board Junior
I worked with an older Irish Catholic man when I was young. He recounted his time as an altar boy in his youth, when the mass was in Latin. He told me one time the parish priest, in a point of liturgy, said "My father plays dominos better than your fa-aaa-ther."

How different is Francis, making up as he goes?
 
Last edited:
TylerRay

TylerRay

Puritan Board Graduate
Tom Hart said:
You'd think there should be a bit more time in purgatory for unbelievers, but Mr. Bergoglio's words indicated no such thing.

Actually, that raises another question. Shouldn't that boy's father have been in purgatory? He must have been a very saintly atheist indeed if he skipped all those years of torment.
Click to expand...
It may be that he believes in an instantaneous purgatory. As far as I know, the RCC has no settled dogma on the duration of purgatory.
 
D

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
Tom Hart said:
Francis appears to advocate a "many paths, one mountain" view. There are many religions, and even non-religions, but all of these lead to heaven.

I do not see how an honest Catholic could say that such a teaching is in line with historic Roman Catholicism. All it takes is a conparison of Trent and Vatican I with the theologically liberal Vatican II. As I see it, the most consistent Roman Catholics are the ultra-traditionalist sedevacantists.

To a Christian, Francis's claims should be alarming, even in spite of all of the other heresy and blasphemy in the Roman system. If a man, an atheist, is saved on the basis of his being "a good man" (whatever that means) then where does that leave Christ? What of the cross? Did Christ die in vain?

This is more akin even to Pelagianism than historic Roman Catholicism.
Click to expand...
Ever since the time of the "changes" within the Church of Rome, such as Latin no longer required for Mass, there has been official Catholic teaching that God would see in other religions sincere faith and commitment to what they knew, as grounds for God to save them. God would have known that if they had the Roman doctrine given to them would have no doubt responded and converted to Catholicism, so he applies saving grace towards them. So sincere Jews/Muslims/Hindus can be saved in the end, an the only group that basically never had a shot was former Catholics who willingly disavowed the Church of Rome and its teachings.
Current Pope seems to have expanded on that a bit.
 
D

DTK

Puritan Board Junior
Rome has bounced back and forth on its "infallible" pronouncements regarding those who are recipients of heaven, whatever "heaven" presently means within Romanism. The current pope is an embarassment to many conservatives and apologists within Romanism, so they wiggle, squirm, and sigh hoping for a better one down the road.

Again (my pet peeve) I refuse to call a Romanist "catholic" - they do not deserve to be called "catholics," since they are members of the most anti-catholic communion in the world. Again, I cite Owen...

John Owen (1616-1683): “With the Roman Catholics unity ever dwelt.” Never! The very name of Roman Catholic, appropriating Catholicism to Romanism, is destructive of all gospel unity. The Works of John Owen, Animadversions on a Treatise Entitled Fiat Lux, ed. William H. Goold, (Edinburgh: The Banner of Truth Trust, Third printing, 1977), vol. XIV, p. 93.
 
Haeralis

Haeralis

Puritan Board Freshman
chuckd said:
Armchair quarter backing, but what would you tell the boy?
Click to expand...
Tell him that you "don't know" whether he died with a changed heart or not and use the opportunity to expound the importance of the Gospel. Death is tragic but it is all the more tragic when you die in sin. God gave us a way to be reconciled to Him by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone, which conquers even the darkness of human death.

Instead of going a route like this, Francis assured this child that his father was definitely saved because he was "a good person" for baptizing his child, and even told him to pray to him. Now the child may grow up thinking that belief in Jesus Christ is an expendable part of salvation.

In Matthew 18:6, Jesus proclaims that "whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea." Francis fits the bill.
 
Tom Hart

Tom Hart

Puritan Board Senior
TylerRay said:
It may be that he believes in an instantaneous purgatory. As far as I know, the RCC has no settled dogma on the duration of purgatory.
Click to expand...
They really should settle that doctrine, then. How is it that one can pray for one's relatives in purgatory while Mr. Bergoglio has told this boy to pray to his dad in heaven? It's a bit of a puzzle.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top