Near Death Experiences

[RamistThomist]

Does Reformed literature deal in detail with Near Death Experiences (NDEs)? Particularly to the claims that the dying or soon-to-be-dying see angels and demons? Granted, this is complicated by silly Christian literature but beyond that, are there any reliable texts on this?

 

[Andrew P.C.]

What does the bible say or imply? I would also ask if you see things, then how would this relate to Hebrews 11 when the writer tells us that " faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen"? Do we knowingly see angels now? Since a near death experience happens while we are still alive, then what would be the difference between a NDE and now?

 

[puritanpilgrim]

It could be an mostly dead experience

 

[RamistThomist]

Do we knowingly see angels now?

knowingly or willingly? I know people who do see angels (and demons).

Since a near death experience happens while we are still alive, then what would be the difference between a NDE and now?

For most people they are on their deathbed or the operating table.

 

[toddpedlar]

Do we knowingly see angels now?

knowingly or willingly? I know people who do see angels (and demons).

How exactly is it that they know what they're seeing is angels or demons?






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[Miss Marple]

How did Mary know? Etc.

 

[RamistThomist]

Do we knowingly see angels now?

knowingly or willingly? I know people who do see angels (and demons).

How exactly is it that they know what they're seeing is angels or demons?






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't know how they know. The problem of criterion in epistemology is an infinite regress.

But maybe it need not be. The Christian tradition has reflected long upon this and offered something along the lines of guidelines. Not infallible, of course, pace Rome, but we aren't entirely in the dark, either.

 

[puritanpilgrim]

[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xbE8E1ez97M[/video]

 

[Andrew P.C.]

Do we knowingly see angels now?

knowingly or willingly? I know people who do see angels (and demons).

Willing implies that they do appear to us regardless if we know about such a thing. However, do we know (are we aware through information) that they do such things? My question goes back to a biblical basis for the inquiry. We cannot base our understand on experiences alone since "the heart is more deceitful than all else" (Jer. 17). This is also why scripture tells us to renew our minds (Rom. 12).

Since a near death experience happens while we are still alive, then what would be the difference between a NDE and now?

For most people they are on their deathbed or the operating table.

This doesn't answer my question. I am speaking about the state of the person. If they are having a NDE then they are still alive. What is the difference in the state of the person that would necessitate an appearance? And again, where is the biblical warrant for such an idea?

 

[Miss Marple]

Still, my question about Mary was probably not on point. Mary was not having a "near death" experience. She was having a direct revelation.

It occurs to me that we are either alive, or dead, and there is no "in between" state.

 

[JimmyH]

I suppose this is sort of on topic. On September 20th, 1972 I was an ironworker's union apprentice working on the erection of an aeroplane hanger designed to house three 747s wingtip to wingtip. It was the largest cantilever in the south eastern United States. Around 10:30 in the morning I was on the 85 foot level bolting up with a partner. Two connectors were hanging iron on the same level but further out on the cantilever (a projection supported at one end only)

One of them made a fatal mistake and I saw him fall 85 feet to his death. I told my partner, who was facing the other way, that Monahan just 'went in the hole'. As he was turning to look over his shoulder towards the ground I said. "His brains just came out of his head." From my vantage point I saw something like a mass ooze from his head. We went down to the ground and I observed that there was nothing around his head. If I had not said what I did to my working partner I would have doubted what I saw.

Can we see a soul leaving the body ? I really don't know what it was I saw, but I know I saw something, and I've since always thought it must have been something ethereal.

 

[johnny]

I do not know of any reformed literature dealing with NDE experiences.

I am open to the opinion of Dr Rick Strausman that during times of extreme stress,
the pineal gland in the base of the skull may produce Dimethyltryptamin (DMT) which
would account for the strange "out of body" and "near death experiences".

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jonat...olecule-director-mitch-schultz_b_2248834.html

This is possibly some form of self defence mechanism designed by God to protect brain function
and may or may not have little to do with the spirit realm and otherworldly realities.

1 Cor 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part;
but then shall I know even as also I am known.

 

[RamistThomist]

Do we knowingly see angels now?

knowingly or willingly? I know people who do see angels (and demons).

Willing implies that they do appear to us regardless if we know about such a thing. However, do we know (are we aware through information) that they do such things? My question goes back to a biblical basis for the inquiry. We cannot base our understand on experiences alone since "the heart is more deceitful than all else" (Jer. 17). This is also why scripture tells us to renew our minds (Rom. 12).

Since a near death experience happens while we are still alive, then what would be the difference between a NDE and now?

For most people they are on their deathbed or the operating table.

This doesn't answer my question. I am speaking about the state of the person. If they are having a NDE then they are still alive. What is the difference in the state of the person that would necessitate an appearance? And again, where is the biblical warrant for such an idea?

Death is the tearing of spirit-soul from the flesh. I suppose that the state of the person is when the connection between spirit-soul and flesh begins to break down.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Near Death Experiences

I think you just had one in the thread about underlining library books.

 

[Miss Marple]

Now I remember Stephen, apparently partly in this world and partly in the next, seeing Jesus. So I guess there is biblical warrant for a sort of betwixt and between place.

Whether you "come back" from it I don't know. Can't think of any examples of that.

 

[RamistThomist]

Near Death Experiences

I think you just had one in the thread about underlining library books.

Well said.

 

[masterp48hd]

Does Reformed literature deal in detail with Near Death Experiences (NDEs)? Particularly to the claims that the dying or soon-to-be-dying see angels and demons? Granted, this is complicated by silly Christian literature but beyond that, are there any reliable texts on this?

I think near death experiences are due to the release of large quantities of ketamine in the brain, a instinctive response of the body trying to.numb tge pain of the body dying

Enviado desde mi LG-D618 mediante Tapatalk

 

[toddpedlar]

Do we knowingly see angels now?

knowingly or willingly? I know people who do see angels (and demons).

How exactly is it that they know what they're seeing is angels or demons?






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't know how they know. The problem of criterion in epistemology is an infinite regress.

But maybe it need not be. The Christian tradition has reflected long upon this and offered something along the lines of guidelines. Not infallible, of course, pace Rome, but we aren't entirely in the dark, either.

I wasn't asking such an obscure question as to run into the infinite regress issue. I only wanted to know what is it they say when asked how they know what they observed were angels and/or demons. In any case I have ever heard of, the things that are said do not match any Biblical description of either. My strong suspicion is that the vast majority of the time people claim this or that observation are figments of the imagination or mistaken assumptions about what they have seen - and that most NDEs are not at all correctly understood as such.

 

[RamistThomist]

Do we knowingly see angels now?

knowingly or willingly? I know people who do see angels (and demons).

How exactly is it that they know what they're seeing is angels or demons?






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't know how they know. The problem of criterion in epistemology is an infinite regress.

But maybe it need not be. The Christian tradition has reflected long upon this and offered something along the lines of guidelines. Not infallible, of course, pace Rome, but we aren't entirely in the dark, either.

I wasn't asking such an obscure question as to run into the infinite regress issue. I only wanted to know what is it they say when asked how they know what they observed were angels and/or demons. In any case I have ever heard of, the things that are said do not match any Biblical description of either. My strong suspicion is that the vast majority of the time people claim this or that observation are figments of the imagination or mistaken assumptions about what they have seen - and that most NDEs are not at all correctly understood as such.

I don't know what criterion they use to distinguish angels and demons. I have some ideas that match up to reports in church history, but that would have to be another thread. We could then ask--as Eastern Orthodox ask me all the time--how the internal testimony of the Holy Spirit isn't question-begging.

You say "majority" of these claims. Well, perhaps, but the majority of claims I've seen seem to be either angelic or demonic.

 

[toddpedlar]

Can you give an example?


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[RamistThomist]

Can you give an example?


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Most of my examples are from JP Moreland or Dallas Willard talks. I would have to transcribe the relevant sections. I suppose I could when I get around to it.

 

[God'sElectSaint]

Does Reformed literature deal in detail with Near Death Experiences (NDEs)? Particularly to the claims that the dying or soon-to-be-dying see angels and demons? Granted, this is complicated by silly Christian literature but beyond that, are there any reliable texts on this?

I think near death experiences are due to the release of large quantities of ketamine in the brain, a instinctive response of the body trying to.numb tge pain of the body dying

Enviado desde mi LG-D618 mediante Tapatalk

I had no idea the brain naturally released ketamine? If true that would explain the strange experiences. In my past life of sin I have used ketamine as a recreational drug and it definitely has some very strange effects.

 

[RamistThomist]

Does Reformed literature deal in detail with Near Death Experiences (NDEs)? Particularly to the claims that the dying or soon-to-be-dying see angels and demons? Granted, this is complicated by silly Christian literature but beyond that, are there any reliable texts on this?

I think near death experiences are due to the release of large quantities of ketamine in the brain, a instinctive response of the body trying to.numb tge pain of the body dying

Enviado desde mi LG-D618 mediante Tapatalk

I had no idea the brain naturally released ketamine? If true that would explain the strange experiences. In my past life of sin I have used ketamine as a recreational drug and it definitely has some very strange effects.

It can explain some cases but not all. J.P. Moreland tells the following story of a student of his. The student's grandfather died on the operating table and his soul was "at the top of the room" (analogically, of course, it is hard to use spatial language of the soul when it is dis-embodied) and saw the two doctors trying to resuscitate him (they later did). One doctor said to let him die. The man was later resuscitated and began to cuss out the doctor.

I don't think ketamine can really explain that. What are we to make of that story. A hermeneutics of trust would take it as face-value unless an overriding defeater undercut the initial warrant. This is the most natural view. A hermeneutics of suspicion would say it is false and seek naturalistic explanations.

 

[toddpedlar]

Does Reformed literature deal in detail with Near Death Experiences (NDEs)? Particularly to the claims that the dying or soon-to-be-dying see angels and demons? Granted, this is complicated by silly Christian literature but beyond that, are there any reliable texts on this?

I think near death experiences are due to the release of large quantities of ketamine in the brain, a instinctive response of the body trying to.numb tge pain of the body dying

Enviado desde mi LG-D618 mediante Tapatalk

I had no idea the brain naturally released ketamine? If true that would explain the strange experiences. In my past life of sin I have used ketamine as a recreational drug and it definitely has some very strange effects.

It can explain some cases but not all. J.P. Moreland tells the following story of a student of his. The student's grandfather died on the operating table and his soul was "at the top of the room" (analogically, of course, it is hard to use spatial language of the soul when it is dis-embodied) and saw the two doctors trying to resuscitate him (they later did). One doctor said to let him die. The man was later resuscitated and began to cuss out the doctor.

I don't think ketamine can really explain that. What are we to make of that story. A hermeneutics of trust would take it as face-value unless an overriding defeater undercut the initial warrant. This is the most natural view. A hermeneutics of suspicion would say it is false and seek naturalistic explanations.

Seems to me that this is all most naturally explained as the man's imagination supplementing what his senses gave him. It was described after the fact, after he had recovered, right?

 

[RamistThomist]

Does Reformed literature deal in detail with Near Death Experiences (NDEs)? Particularly to the claims that the dying or soon-to-be-dying see angels and demons? Granted, this is complicated by silly Christian literature but beyond that, are there any reliable texts on this?

I think near death experiences are due to the release of large quantities of ketamine in the brain, a instinctive response of the body trying to.numb tge pain of the body dying

Enviado desde mi LG-D618 mediante Tapatalk

I had no idea the brain naturally released ketamine? If true that would explain the strange experiences. In my past life of sin I have used ketamine as a recreational drug and it definitely has some very strange effects.

It can explain some cases but not all. J.P. Moreland tells the following story of a student of his. The student's grandfather died on the operating table and his soul was "at the top of the room" (analogically, of course, it is hard to use spatial language of the soul when it is dis-embodied) and saw the two doctors trying to resuscitate him (they later did). One doctor said to let him die. The man was later resuscitated and began to cuss out the doctor.

I don't think ketamine can really explain that. What are we to make of that story. A hermeneutics of trust would take it as face-value unless an overriding defeater undercut the initial warrant. This is the most natural view. A hermeneutics of suspicion would say it is false and seek naturalistic explanations.

Seems to me that this is all most naturally explained as the man's imagination supplementing what his senses gave him. It was described after the fact, after he had recovered, right?

He was dead on the table and while dead he had exact knowledge of the doctors' and the conversation. Ergo, the doctrine of the soul and the reality of disembodied states.

 

[Edward]

He was dead on the table

Define 'dead' in this context. Did the brain flatline? Or was it merely cardiac arrest?

 

[RamistThomist]

He was dead on the table

Define 'dead' in this context. Did the brain flatline? Or was it merely cardiac arrest?

I do not know. I know Moreland addresses this more in detail in his book with Habermas.

While we should critically evaluate evidence, I don't see why this is a sticky point. The Christian plausibility structure lends credence to this, given our doctrine of the soul. Now, if I were Daniel Dennett I would argue against Moreland on this point.

But my position doesn't have to be that he was "dead dead." If either his brain flatlined or he had cardiac arrest, how could he know the doctors' conversation?

 

[Edward]

If either his brain flatlined or he had cardiac arrest, how could he know the doctors' conversation?

If the heart stopped, the brain is going to keep working for a few minutes. During that time, the doctors probably cranked up the oxygen. If they cut back on the anesthesia, he's going to start waking up. The ears still work. So it isn't unlikely that he heard what the doctor said, but his brain is going to still be affected by the chemicals in his system.

I started waking up during fairly minor surgery one time. The memories are an interesting mix of probable reality and likely 'fill in the blanks'.

 

[RamistThomist]

If either his brain flatlined or he had cardiac arrest, how could he know the doctors' conversation?

If the heart stopped, the brain is going to keep working for a few minutes. During that time, the doctors probably cranked up the oxygen. If they cut back on the anesthesia, he's going to start waking up. The ears still work. So it isn't unlikely that he heard what the doctor said, but his brain is going to still be affected by the chemicals in his system.

I started waking up during fairly minor surgery one time. The memories are an interesting mix of probable reality and likely 'fill in the blanks'.

Again, I must claim ignorance on the specific details, though I know Moreland and Habermas dealt with the specifics. Even so, it doesn't explain his claim that he "saw" (using sensory terms analogically here. The Patristics and the Medievals were aware of the problems of how the soul perceives data) the doctors from above.

 

[a mere housewife]

I think the Reformed are unlikely to have written much in this area because it is not among the things revealed, and the Reformed are very strong on sticking to those? Who can even scientifically determine the exact moment of the separation of the soul from the body, or whether what anyone experiences lies on this or the other side? Why don't we have an inspired record of Lazarus' experience? Or of that of the man Christ raised, or of Jairus' daughter? The gospel writer's weren't concerned with recording the after death experience: they were concerned with what Christ did in raising them. I don't think it's appropriate to leap to the conclusion that people are liars as to their experiences, but we don't believe experience is an authoritative guide: we believe against experience, wherever the word of God contradicts it (as Abraham believed, both in receiving Isaac in birth and his belief that he would be raised from the dead, if need be). One of the most understated things to me about revelation is the way it takes all these questions I have, sets most of them aside, and speaks about Christ. What we know is that if this were helpful to our vision of Christ -- it would have been included.

I struggled with this a few years ago wondering about Lewis' and Charles Williams' experiences with 'co-inherence'. -- Lewis prays for his wife to get well from her bone disease and miraculously bone starts to regrow in her body, while his bones become full of holes. Why don't the reformed write about these things?

Perhaps because we'd make saints of ourselves or others, or feel guilty for not having whatever it takes to bear more of the world's pain away etc (as I did after reading this) -- instead of being simple and childlike in our utter need of our Saviour. I can believe that sometimes God allows people to bear one another's burdens in unusual ways in answer to prayer and in likeness to Christ. But I think faith isn't going to pry into the how and when and why, as though the human mind could figure it out, when God hasn't told us about it or even told us to ask for it. We're told simply to bear one another's burdens (as Christ did ours) and to submit all our requests to our Heavenly Father (as Christ did). This is enough for faith, whether we're allowed to help in any way or have to sit by while the other struggles to death (which eventually, Lewis had to do, too -- and I expect it was much harder than the other).

I think probably it would be worse if we were given more, but that distracted from our view of Christ -- faith has a hard enough time clinging to Him already, through all experience?