MABS/MATS for ordination?

[SkylerGerald]

The MDiv certainly enjoys being the industry standard, as it were, of theological degrees for pastors. I think that's for good reason as it covers a lot of ground. However, I know there are seminaries such as RTS who offer high-quality MABS and MATS degrees. Assuming he's a proper candidate in other respects (personal piety, etc.) would you have hesitations in ordaining a guy who has an MABS/MATS from a reputable seminary like RTS and not an MDiv?

It seems the PCA's BCO doesn't overtly prohibit this as 21-4 describes the seminary requirement as being the presentation of a "diploma of Bachelor or Master from some approved theological seminary". Still, curious to hear what you all think/how you suspect that would be viewed within your presbytery.

(I see this topic has been discussed before but not at length at least in my opinion)

 

[greenbaggins]

I would ask some questions about it. My particular concern would be the languages. Often, in those other degrees, the language requirements are lessened, and this is serious problem for someone who wants to be a minister. I would ask what the motivation was for a man wanting to go into ministry, but not wanting the full M.Div. Why would he want to get an "easier" degree for a calling so difficult?

 

[Semper Fidelis]

It depends. As a general rule, the MDiv requirement is only waived when a man has significant experience in life and ministry. Fro example, someone in their late 30's or older who has been serving in the Church for some time. If a man came out of college and was looking to get an abbreviated education, it would not be considered favorably.

 

[SkylerGerald]

I would ask some questions about it. My particular concern would be the languages. Often, in those other degrees, the language requirements are lessened, and this is serious problem for someone who wants to be a minister. I would ask what the motivation was for a man wanting to go into ministry, but not wanting the full M.Div. Why would he want to get an "easier" degree for a calling so difficult?

Good point. I've seen MABS degrees often only require one language but perhaps you could use electives for the other.

 

[iainduguid]

Can we turn the question around and ask what do pastors need to know? Do they need to be rooted and grounded in the languages? Do they need to be well trained in Biblical Studies? Do they need to have a thorough grasp of church history and systematics? Should they be trained to preach, teach and counsel effectively?
Of course, there are plenty of men who have an MDiv and don't meet these criteria, and others who have an MAR or less and do. But generally speaking there's a reason our denominations recommend an MDiv. Ministry is hard enough without having to be playing catch up on the job. I started pastoral ministry with a Westminster MDiv and a PhD in OT and still I wished I could have had more training in some areas. Don't sell short your opportunity to learn as much as possible at seminary.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Can we turn the question around and ask what do pastors need to know? Do they need to be rooted and grounded in the languages? Do they need to be well trained in Biblical Studies? Do they need to have a thorough grasp of church history and systematics? Should they be trained to preach, teach and counsel effectively?
Of course, there are plenty of men who have an MDiv and don't meet these criteria, and others who have an MAR or less and do. But generally speaking there's a reason our denominations recommend an MDiv. Ministry is hard enough without having to be playing catch up on the job. I started pastoral ministry with a Westminster MDiv and a PhD in OT and still I wished I could have had more training in some areas. Don't sell short your opportunity to learn as much as possible at seminary.

I agree with this point. I didn't begin my formal theological education until I was 41. It took me 7 years to earn 1/2 of an MDiv because I have 5 kids, a job, and am an Elder.

Prior to beginning my education, I believed I had a solid apprehension of theological subjects, and I certainly was ahead of others who were starting to form a place behind my years of personal study and reflection.

That said, I did not expect to benefit from formal education as much as I did. Formal language instruction and exegesis were particularly beneficial in helping me to really think about the nature of language itself - not just syntax but how one thinks about language and how it translates across from the Sctiprue to the current person.

I know there is a tendency today to think of education as a heavy expense and not worth the "ROI". An MDiv from a good Seminary, however, is an important foundation for a minister. There are other parts of his personal development that deal with piety and spiritual growth, but one should never seek to short-change the preparation in developing a man's theological "toolkit".

 

[Edward]

It seems the PCA's BCO doesn't overtly prohibit this

It's my recollection that most MATS don't require the languages.

PCA BCO 21-4 c would be the sticking point.

Trials for ordination shall consist of 1) A careful examination as to: (a) his acquaintance with experiential religion, especially his personal character and family management (based on the qualifications set out in 1 Timothy 3:1-7, and Titus 1:6-9), (b) his knowledge of the Greek and Hebrew languages,(c) Bible content, (d) theology,(e) the Sacraments,(f) Church history,(g) the history of the Presbyterian Church in America, and(h) the principles and rules of the government and discipline of the church.A Presbytery may accept a seminary degree which includes studyin the original languages in lieu of an oral examination in the original languages.


Editorial note: PDF to BBS is a pain. Thus errors in the display.

 

[SkylerGerald]

It's my recollection that most MATS don't require the languages.

PCA BCO 21-4 c would be the sticking point.

Trials for ordination shall consist of 1) A careful examination as to: (a) his acquaintance with experiential religion, especially his personal character and family management (based on the qualifications set out in 1 Timothy 3:1-7, and Titus 1:6-9), (b) his knowledge of the Greek and Hebrew languages,(c) Bible content, (d) theology,(e) the Sacraments,(f) Church history,(g) the history of the Presbyterian Church in America, and(h) the principles and rules of the government and discipline of the church.A Presbytery may accept a seminary degree which includes studyin the original languages in lieu of an oral examination in the original languages.


Editorial note: PDF to BBS is a pain. Thus errors in the display.

That’s correct, the situation I had in mind was one wherein the guy does Greek and Hebrew for his electives. What would your thoughts on that be?

 

[Edward]

That’s correct, the situation I had in mind was one wherein the guy does Greek and Hebrew for his electives. What would your thoughts on that be?

My thoughts are 'why would anyone do that instead of the M.Div.? Isn't the primary purpose of doing the other degree to avoid the languages?

 

[Andrew35]

Shouldn't that be a situation like language work? I mean, I have friends who did Biblical Studies for their undergrad, with Bib Languages, and were able to test out of a number of classes in the MDiv program at Westminster, or count some of their work toward their MDiv in some other way.

I suppose I can imagine financial realities where it's difficult to pursue the whole program, but might as well complete the degree that suited for the job you want. Otherwise you'll always be somewhat hampered, in terms of employment. Or at least have to do some explaining.

I actually got an MABS with an emphasis in Greek and Hebrew because I wanted the languages, so trying to avoid them is a little hard for me to process. They were definitely better than the ministry/theology courses at my Dispensational, Baptist school.

At any rate, I wouldn't try entering the pastorate without returning for the whole program.

 

[SkylerGerald]

My thoughts are 'why would anyone do that instead of the M.Div.? Isn't the primary purpose of doing the other degree to avoid the languages?

Well not necessarily. The purpose I hear from others in the situation I described in the OP is to lessen the financial burden which a fewer credit program (such as the MABS) would do. Certainly some might choose the MABS for that reason but that isn’t always the case.

 

[Polanus1561]

In any case, there are ways to get some training and an official record of it of sorts. biblemesh or biblicaltraining.org

 

[TylerRay]

Well not necessarily. The purpose I hear from others in the situation I described in the OP is to lessen the financial burden which a fewer credit program (such as the MABS) would do. Certainly some might choose the MABS for that reason but that isn’t always the case.

Someone who is looking to save money probably shouldn't be looking at RTS. He could pick a cheaper seminary (GPTS, PRTS, or Whitefield, for example) and get a full education.

 

[iainduguid]

I understand the fact that seminary can seem costly, but it is an investment in your future ministry. There are ways to keep the cost down, such as scholarships and seeking support from church, family and friends who can affirm your gifts. I worked full time while studying full time my last two years in order to be able to afford my MDiv. A good online program like that at Westminster enables people to stay in jobs while studying part time, which makes it more affordable. The reality is that an MAR is at best 2/3 of your training. Could you get by with 2/3 of the training? Perhaps. Some get by with no training at all. But it should be a last resort rather than a deliberate plan.

 

[SkylerGerald]

I understand the fact that seminary can seem costly, but it is an investment in your future ministry. There are ways to keep the cost down, such as scholarships and seeking support from church, family and friends who can affirm your gifts. I worked full time while studying full time my last two years in order to be able to afford my MDiv. A good online program like that at Westminster enables people to stay in jobs while studying part time, which makes it more affordable. The reality is that an MAR is at best 2/3 of your training. Could you get by with 2/3 of the training? Perhaps. Some get by with no training at all. But it should be a last resort rather than a deliberate plan.

I agree with this. Certainly the first response to difficulty should not be to lower the bar, as it were. If someone is intentionally taking the path of least resistance in their ordination track I would be rightfully skeptical, I think.

The point here, as I am attempting to convey, is whether or not a man who has understandable constraints and a clear desire to grow in knowledge (not avoiding sanctifying difficulties) should be barred or considered special case simply because he got a MABS with languages as opposed to the MDiv. If a guy came through our presbytery in that situation it would seem to me like a bait and switch since the BCO of our denomination does not explicitly list the MDiv as the requirement.

Still, you make a very helpful point that if a man is going into the process with a get-it-over-with plan and attitude then there’s cause for concern.

 

[TylerRay]

I agree with this. Certainly the first response to difficulty should not be to lower the bar, as it were. If someone is intentionally taking the path of least resistance in their ordination track I would be rightfully skeptical, I think.

The point here, as I am attempting to convey, is whether or not a man who has understandable constraints and a clear desire to grow in knowledge (not avoiding sanctifying difficulties) should be barred or considered special case simply because he got a MABS with languages as opposed to the MDiv. If a guy came through our presbytery in that situation it would seem to me like a bait and switch since the BCO of our denomination does not explicitly list the MDiv as the requirement.

Still, you make a very helpful point that if a man is going into the process with a get-it-over-with plan and attitude then there’s cause for concern.

Presbyteries should be able to recognize exceptional cases, in which a man is equipped without the usual academic credentials. For that matter, they should be able to recognize when someone is not equipped despite having them.

In the case of a man who has an MA of some kind, and clearly has the requisite gifts, graces, and Christian experience, presbytery should probably grill him extra hard on the areas he might have missed in seminary. If he is found lacking, perhaps they could work with him, assign a course of reading, etc.

Obviously, any course of action a presbytery takes will have to accord with the given denomination's legislation. In my denomination, an MDiv isn't the requirement--it's graduation from the denominational seminary, which awards a Dipl.Th. A couple of friends of mine, one of whom is a licentiate and the other of whom was ordained last year, graduated from American seminaries with MDivs, and had to take the exit exams for all the courses in the denominational seminary, essentially testing out of the entire program.