LittleGeneva.Com???

Status
Not open for further replies.
Originally posted by rmwilliamsjr
i don't want to get into a discussion where i appear to support places like the OP points to.
read what i wrote at:
http://www.dakotacom.net/~rmwillia/hap6.html
Click to expand...

I'll check it in a few.

is murder wrong?
is it a sin that will be punished by God?
is mistreating a slave sin?
will Christians die with mistaken viewpoints and full of sin?
will God save us despite our inconsistency and stupidity?
yes to all.
will having the right thoughts, doing the right things with respect to racism save us?
no. i can treat everyone properly and as a brother and offer my life to their service and still be unsaved. yes.
Click to expand...

Let me answer those questions with one simple question (yes, question, singular):

Can true believer, born of the Spirit of God, engage in murder as a continuous lifestyle, unrepentant and even glory in it ?

How about adultery ?
How about fornication and/or open homosexuality ?
How about embezlement ?
How about public drunkeness ?

I have further thoughts (and I do agree with some of what you've written), but I'll table them till I get home and read your blog.
 
Can true believer, born of the Spirit of God, engage in murder as a continuous lifestyle, unrepentant and even glory in it ?
Click to expand...

a excellent question.
it applies to all the soldiers through history, all the politicians that support capital punishment, all the grain merchants who profit from famines, as well as all the slave holders and their supporters over the centuries.

all those guards in the prison systems of the world that destroy humanity, all those in capitalist industries that make products solely for their profit and pollute the environment so that people die, all those in militaristic societies like nazi Germany, soviet Russia, Mao's China that did not speak out against the evil of their governments but paid their taxes and went to war when drafted. all those that support drug company profits of 1000% while people die of TB and AIDS because they can not afford medicine.

Not just those who support evil institutions but those who consistently walk pass the poor, the hungry, the imprisoned, the wretched without giving everything to alleviate their pain. Those who harbor a grudge against their brethren, who curse their brothers, who wish their neighbors ill will or even death.

i suspect that 19thC Southerns are not the only Christians to walk by on the other side of the path when their neighbors lay bleeding and broken in the ditch. constantly. continuously. proud of it and of themselves. only now we call it capitalism, or justice, or beyond our control. and plead that the issues are not as clear as slavery is to us, now 100 years later.
perhaps our descendents will be more condemning of our lack of actions against global warming, or toxic chemicals in the environment or deforestation. things which we glory in with our smug contentment of our lifestyles and the things we have gained.

yes, you ask a good question, the best question of all---
what doth God require of you?
to do justice, to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
...
 
what am i trying to do with the analogies of slavery to capitalism, capital punishment, pollution, etc?

i am trying to find issues, that are analogous to 19thC slavery. Issues that Christians today seem to have just a small minority opposed to them. Looking back with the advantage of 150 years of hindsight has reversed the numbers. Where maybe 5% of American Christians opposed slavery then maybe 5% would find anything to say about it today.

Take these issues: capital punishment, unbridled capitalism, military, pollution. Project the issues 150 years into the future. I'd be willing to bet that one of those issues will completely reverse itself in the Christian community.

The issue is that these things seem so certain, like the Southerns thought the Biblical justification for slavery so secure, yet there are voices in the Church saying---no.

just as the South justified slavery with Scripture, we today justify these things in such a way that they appear to us just as obviously Christian as did slavery to R.Dabney and perhaps our descendents will condemn us just as we do him.
 
Originally posted by rmwilliamsjr
Can true believer, born of the Spirit of God, engage in murder as a continuous lifestyle, unrepentant and even glory in it ?
Click to expand...

a excellent question.
it applies to all the soldiers through history, all the politicians that support capital punishment...
Click to expand...

No, it doesn't.
Are you some sort of liberal wacko or something? :mad:
 
Originally posted by SolaScriptura
Originally posted by rmwilliamsjr
Can true believer, born of the Spirit of God, engage in murder as a continuous lifestyle, unrepentant and even glory in it ?
Click to expand...

a excellent question.
it applies to all the soldiers through history, all the politicians that support capital punishment...
Click to expand...

No, it doesn't.
Are you some sort of liberal wacko or something? :mad:
Click to expand...
I think he's referring to Caleb for instance. You know Caleb right? He's that soldier that fought in the Army of Israel. At the Lord's Command, he apparently MURDERED men, women, and children.

Also, at the Lord's command, the nation of Israel MURDERED blasphemers, adulterers, witches, ....

Truly, I understand now. God is the author of sin.
 
You know -- you guys could be nicer and more charitable in your rebukes...

I've read the Holiness of God and the chapter The Trauma of Holiness and it helps one understand all the wars of Israel, as well how God used Israel's enemies as instrument of chastening. The same applies today. As Bob Jones says, "War is God´s judgment on sin here; hell is God´s judgment on sin hereafter." Lately, God hasn't given any marching orders.

Rich, you're starting to remind me of Major Payne
Major_Payne.jpg


:p


[Edited on 2-25-2006 by Puritanhead]
 
it is a big issue with me, however, i am aware that it is not a salvation issue.
Dabney, despite his pro slavery defense, it a brother inside the boundaries of the church.
likewise are those pointed to by the OP.
inconsistent, wrong, loud, maybe even evil, but yet still within the boundaries of the invisible church (actually since i am PCA, that is probably the visible church)
Click to expand...

I think you have to be careful with where you go with this. For clarifications sake i don't think you can condemn slavery with a bible. Maybe real, biblical slavery has never been practiced in the modern age, but in theory i don't have a problem with saying it is possible to practice slavery righteously.

Racism, however, is a completely different animal. Old testament israel might well have been 'racist' in a sense, but that was because God had specifically rejected all other people (bar some exceptions here and there) in favour of them. Such considerations no longer apply in the new testament.

As for being inside the invisible church, to be honest i don't think that means all that much. A man may very well be one of God's elect, but his beliefs may be so twisted that he is in no way a christian, ie he is not following Jesus Christ in the way Christ asked to be followed. Whilst it is possible we may see some people we might not expect in heaven, that in no way makes them legitimate christians on earth.

[Edited on 2-23-2006 by satz]
 
Originally posted by satz
it is a big issue with me, however, i am aware that it is not a salvation issue.
Dabney, despite his pro slavery defense, it a brother inside the boundaries of the church.
likewise are those pointed to by the OP.
inconsistent, wrong, loud, maybe even evil, but yet still within the boundaries of the invisible church (actually since i am PCA, that is probably the visible church)
Click to expand...

I think you have to be careful with where you go with this. For clarifications sake i don't think you can condemn slavery with a bible. Maybe real, biblical slavery has never been practiced in the modern age, but in theory i don't have a problem with saying it is possible to practice slavery righteously.

Racism, however, is a completely different animal. Old testament israel might well have been 'racist' in a sense, but that was because God had specifically rejected all other people (bar some exceptions here and there) in favour of them. Such considerations no longer apply in the new testament.

As for being inside the invisible church, to be honest i don't think that means all that much. A man may very well be one of God's elect, but his beliefs may be so twisted that he is in no way a christian, ie he is not following Jesus Christ in the way Christ asked to be followed. Whilst it is possible we may see some people we might not expect in heaven, that in no way makes them legitimate christians on earth.

[Edited on 2-23-2006 by satz]
Click to expand...

to be perfectly honest, after more than a year reading Dabney and Southern defenses of slavery, i can not tell where their defense of slavery ends and their defense of racism begins. The issue is so confused, both in their minds and in subsequent history that i despair of being able to make a statement like:
"Maybe real, biblical slavery has never been practiced in the modern age, but in theory i don't have a problem with saying it is possible to practice slavery righteously."
because in doing so you must make that distinction between race and slavery.

For clarifications sake i don't think you can condemn slavery with a bible.
i have an excellent quote somewhere about how the South won the Bible war over slavery and lost the shooting war.
...

[Edited on 2-23-2006 by rmwilliamsjr]
 
You're right, I probably could be more gentle.

I'm not implying that all soldiers, everywhere, have God's permission to kill people but his statement was incredibly foolish and revealed either a very ignorant understanding of the Scriptures regarding the use of the Sword or a political theory that causes him to reinterpret Scriptural treatment on war and capital punishment as distinct from the act of murder.

BUT WE'RE OFF TOPIC.

Before he made the rash comment, Richard was arguing for this idea: There are Christians who commit sins that are grevious and they get to heaven. Look, even Dabney was pro-slavery, was that an unforgivable sin? Christians commit adultery and they can still be saved...

I'm having a bit of trouble seeing the relevance so let's steer back to the reason why the littlegeneva.com site is bad.

All will grant the case that racism (or as they call it kinism) is not an unforgivable sin. Adultery isn't either nor is polygamy.

What if I become become Biblically convinced that polygamy is OK (Gosh, it's even regulated in the OT!). I'll just create a website where all my fellow "Reformed" polygamists can write articles that show how terribly misinformed and unbiblical mongamy is. I won't even call it Polygamy. I'll call it MULTISPOUSISM. There you go, I just registered http://www.multispousism.org!

What are we defending here? The reason why we're getting after these guys at Little Geneva is because they are fools and they've devoted a site to spreading folly. Are they damned? I don't think anyone has said they are. I have said that it's one thing to hold to certain views when you're raised in a culture that gives you a theological blind spot. It's quite another to resurrect such ideas from the "good ole' days", call it kinism, and then have the gall to say that the prevailing Reformed thought on the issue is all gooned up and that you're the remnant. THAT IS FOOLISH and demonstrates a heart that could well be on a path to destruction.

By the way, I'm all for marrying outside of my "race". My paternal grandfather was 100% Finnish, paternal grandmother was 50% Irish, 50% German, maternal grandmother was 75% Irish, 25% Prussian, and my maternal grandfather descends from folks on the Mayflower (have no idea of his ethnic mix). I think I'm a bit better looking than some of my pure-bred ancestors.

Have you ever noticed how much more attractive people are than the pics you see from the past? My wife is 50% Puerto Rican, 25% Lithuanian, and 25% Irish. She's beautiful. My kids are even more mixed and they're super cute.

So from a very practical level, there is a Providential blessing that all this inter-marrying is creating people that are much easier on the eyes!! ;)

[Edited on 2-23-2006 by SemperFideles]
 
to be perfectly honest, after more than a year reading Dabney and Southern defenses of slavery, i can not tell where their defense of slavery ends and their defense of racism begins. The issue is so confused, both in their minds and in subsequent history that i despair of being able to make a statement like:
"Maybe real, biblical slavery has never been practiced in the modern age, but in theory i don't have a problem with saying it is possible to practice slavery righteously."
because in doing so you must make that distinction between race and slavery.

For clarifications sake i don't think you can condemn slavery with a bible.
i have an excellent quote somewhere about how the South won the Bible war over slavery and lost the shooting war.
...

[Edited on 2-23-2006 by rmwilliamsjr]
Click to expand...

Hmm..

I admit i am not well read on the subject so i may have missed some of the intricacies of the issue. My reasoning for saying what i did was simply this; The old testament mentions and approves of slavery. The new testament mentions slavery, does not condemn it and even gives instructions to slaves and masters on how to behave. In light of this, i find i hard to say slavery is wrong in principle, even if there may be many issues about how to practice it.

However, i cannot see how the bible links slavery and race, ever. Well, unless you mean one race being defeated by another in war and enslaved, but that doesn't add anything to modern racist arguments either.

[Edited on 2-23-2006 by satz]
 
Originally posted by satz
Read more from their site...

Honestly they seem like a bunch of nuts to me.
Click to expand...

look at a milder site that teaches much the same thing

http://www.mindspring.com/~dennisw/
see his:
http://www.mindspring.com/~dennisw/articles/nations/

i don't believe that dismissing either of the sites as crazy does justice to the depth that their reasoning is self consciously trying to be Scriptural. I have the same relationship with them as i do with Dabney, i "know" that they are wrong, but i don't know how to prove/show it Scripturally. The cultural component is intermixed so throughly that i can't separate the pieces.

....
 
Richard,

I have a plane to catch in about 6 hours so i don't think i can spend the time reading though that until may a day or two.

I don't want to jump to conclusions without basis, ( which is why i added the 'seem' in my above post) but i really find myself questioning if it is worth our time trying to understand these people more.

What is it about these teachings that makes it necessary to understand them more?

I read though the first page of that document and to be honest my bull---- alarm went off about 12 lines in and there wasn't a single bible verse to turn it off.

I'll try to read the whole thing when i can.
 
When a philosophy states that the Bible prohibits inter-marriage then I say to myself: "Self, this site is a waste of your time."

I really don't care to see how smart they are APART from the fact that their philosophy is based on racism.
 
Originally posted by satz
Richard,

I have a plane to catch in about 6 hours so i don't think i can spend the time reading though that until may a day or two.

I don't want to jump to conclusions without basis, ( which is why i added the 'seem' in my above post) but i really find myself questioning if it is worth our time trying to understand these people more.

What is it about these teachings that makes it necessary to understand them more?

I read though the first page of that document and to be honest my bull---- alarm went off about 12 lines in and there wasn't a single bible verse to turn it off.

I'll try to read the whole thing when i can.
Click to expand...
Why? There are plenty of other nuts that we could seek to understand better? Why don't we all spend more time reading what Muslim clerics write about Israel. We're bound to mine some nuggets there and even learn a little more about what makes our enemies tick. As to the site, I agree with you: Why expend the energy to learn more?
 
Why? There are plenty of other nuts that we could seek to understand better? Why don't we all spend more time reading what Muslim clerics write about Israel. We're bound to mine some nuggets there and even learn a little more about what makes our enemies tick. As to the site, I agree with you: Why expend the energy to learn more?
Click to expand...

To be honest, basically for curiousity i guess.

Just a one time read to see where they are coming from. Definitely not something i would expand a lot of time studying.
 
from Rich
By the way, I'm all for marrying outside of my "race". My paternal grandfather was 100% Finnish, paternal grandmother was 50% Irish, 50% German, maternal grandmother was 75% Irish, 25% Prussian, and my maternal grandfather descends from folks on the Mayflower (have no idea of his ethnic mix). I think I'm a bit better looking than some of my pure-bred ancestors.

Have you ever noticed how much more attractive people are than the pics you see from the past? My wife is 50% Puerto Rican, 25% Lithuanian, and 25% Irish. She's beautiful. My kids are even more mixed and they're super cute.

So from a very practical level, there is a Providential blessing that all this inter-marrying is creating people that are much easier on the eyes!!
Click to expand...
Yeah, but I wore out my calculator trying to figure it out.
 
Originally posted by satz
Richard,

I have a plane to catch in about 6 hours so i don't think i can spend the time reading though that until may a day or two.

I don't want to jump to conclusions without basis, ( which is why i added the 'seem' in my above post) but i really find myself questioning if it is worth our time trying to understand these people more.

What is it about these teachings that makes it necessary to understand them more?

I read though the first page of that document and to be honest my bull---- alarm went off about 12 lines in and there wasn't a single bible verse to turn it off.

I'll try to read the whole thing when i can.
Click to expand...


for me, the issue is a position of R.Dabney's that i have not solved to any satisfaction. It is the same issue that lies underneath the two sites referred to.

what Dabney said was:
1. Equalitarianism.

Abolitionism was the application of equalitarianism to the institution of domestic slavery. Equalitarianism may be defined as an abstract belief in equality, which holds that all men exist in a state of sameness, and that this excludes any sort of natural rank or authority among them. The goal of equalitarianism is the elimination of all social, political, moral, and economic differences between men. It holds these ideals to be the highest ethical standards to which men can strive. Dabney said it this way,

* According to this scheme, each person is by nature an independent integer, absolutely equal to every other man, and naturally entitled, as a "Lord of Creation," to exercise his whole will. Man's natural liberty was accordingly defined as privileged to do whatever he wished... man is by nature absolutely independent, so that he must be himself the supreme, original judge, [as to] what the law of nature is.

As Christians we disagree, believing rather that the highest ideal towards which mankind can strive is obedience to the law of God and the lordship of Jesus Christ, the King over all creation. Furthermore, we reject the idea that each individual is the supreme judge as to what is right for himself. We hold the Bible to be the final word on all things moral for every person in the world.

2. Implications of Equalitarianism.

Because they believed that all men are inherently equal, the Abolitionists viewed slavery as an inherent evil. That was their thesis. We have already shown that far from condemning the institution of slavery, the Bible in some places commends it. Hence, the Abolitionist thesis must be incorrect.

Besides this, if the authority of one man over another in the master-slave relationship is inherently immoral because it violates the principle of natural equality, then by logical extension, any authority which any man exercises over any other without their consent, must also be immoral. This has to include the parent-child relationship, the husband-wife relationship, all relationships between company owners and their employees, along with that of all governments and their citizens. When Robert Dabney confronted the problem of Abolitionism, he complained,

* If men are by nature sovereign and independent, and mechanically equal in rights, and if allegiance is founded solely on expressed or implied consent, then not only slavery, but every involuntary restraint imposed on a person or a class not convicted of crime, and every difference of franchise among the members of civil society, is a glaring wrong. Such are the premises of abolition. Obviously, then, the only just or free government is one where all franchises are absolutely equal to all sexes and conditions, where every office is directly elective, and where no magistrate has any power not expressly assented to by the popular will. For if inequalities of franchise may be justified by differences of character and condition, of course a still wider difference of these might justify so wide an inequality of rights as that between the master and servant. Your true abolitionist is then, of course a Red-Republican, a Jacobin.
Click to expand...
from: http://www.mindspring.com/~dennisw/articles/theocon/part7.htm

there are several others:
equalitarianism and dabney
http://www.littlegeneva.com/gal328.html
http://www.mindspring.com/~dennisw/articles/theocon/part7.htm
http://www.littlegeneva.com/?p=19


Dabney thought that the equalitarianism from the North was not only going to destroy Southern Christian culture, but was going to distort the message of the Gospel in the south as it had in the north. i understand that i am the heir of that north Presbyterianism that Dabney thought was so defective. But i don't understand his criticism of equalitarianism nor dennisw' nor littlegeneva's same position.
 
This site is so self-evidently vitriolic that people have understandably avoided critiquing their exegesis and what not. However, one thing that has always struck me when this issue pops up is how quickly the kinist points to Babel, and God's separation of mankind, etc.

If that's going to be their "reference point", so to speak, I don't see how they manage to take that in a racial sense, as opposed to a linguistic sense. I mean, if bridging differences, interracial marriage, etc., is rebuilding Babel, then any adult who makes any attempt to be bilingual, so as to communicate with another culture, is trying to rebuild "Babel" in a much more explicit way than those who intermarry.

But anyway. That site was way over-the-top, with a noticeable lack of Christian charity. There was one thing making fun of ebonics that really struck me as lacking in charity and imbecilic.

That being said, my personal opinion is that such *sinful* expressions of cultural pride will continue to pop up in America as long as Caucasians are the only ethnic group that is not allowed to publicly express cultural pride, and as long as public schools and the media continue to act like they have been a heinous blight and curse to all of the indigenous peoples on the planet. JMO.
 
Originally posted by Mudandstars
This site is so self-evidently vitriolic that people have understandably avoided critiquing their exegesis and what not. However, one thing that has always struck me when this issue pops up is how quickly the kinist points to Babel, and God's separation of mankind, etc.

If that's going to be their "reference point", so to speak, I don't see how they manage to take that in a racial sense, as opposed to a linguistic sense. I mean, if bridging differences, interracial marriage, etc., is rebuilding Babel, then any adult who makes any attempt to be bilingual, so as to communicate with another culture, is trying to rebuild "Babel" in a much more explicit way than those who intermarry.
Click to expand...
arrugato gozai masen

Run away! He's reversing Babel!!!
4_6_100.gif


[Edited on 2-23-2006 by SemperFideles]
 
Richard,

It seems to be the position taken by Dabney, at least from what you have posted, is rather different from that taken by LittleGeneva.

Prehaps you should start a seperate thread if you want to fully discuss the issue. As long as it is within this thread i think people will be distracted by the offensiveness of the site in the OP.

I agree that there are meaningful racial and cultural differences that may affect our political or social decisions. But sites like LG are not where we should go to learn about such issues. The kinists are too busy disgracing bible christianity that any good they might have to say is drowned out.
 
Originally posted by satz
Richard,

It seems to be the position taken by Dabney, at least from what you have posted, is rather different from that taken by LittleGeneva.

Prehaps you should start a seperate thread if you want to fully discuss the issue. As long as it is within this thread i think people will be distracted by the offensiveness of the site in the OP.

I agree that there are meaningful racial and cultural differences that may affect our political or social decisions. But sites like LG are not where we should go to learn about such issues. The kinists are too busy disgracing bible christianity that any good they might have to say is drowned out.
Click to expand...
Great advice Mark. I was just thinking the same thing today. Poor Dabney having to bear the ignomy of anybody thinking that Little Geneva represents his thought...

The problem with rabbit trails on a thread like this is that people begin to agree with portions of an argument. If you're trying to make a reasonable argument then don't make it on a thread devoted to a site about weirdos making the same point. It's kind of like jumping in on a thread about how stupid gang members are and then extolling the virtues of loyalty. It just harms credibility. Dabney deserves his own voice apart from the weirdos at Little Geneva.

[Edited on 2-23-2006 by SemperFideles]
 
AIG has another story of an English couple that had this happen. The mom was black, the dad white. The twins were dramatically different in that case also.

BTW, those were some beautiful little girls. And I agree with one of the previous posters. Between the mixed lineages in hubby's and my background, we've got beautiful babies. Our children range the spectrum from translucent skin/blue eyes/blonde hair through dishwater hair/hazel eyes to brown hair (was black as an infant) and gorgeous true brown eyes!

[Edited on 2-24-2006 by LadyFlynt]
 
Hate you, Jacob?

Originally posted by Draught Horse
They are the purest definition of a cult: full allegiance or else. They hate me and my friends.
Click to expand...

Jacob, what is that all about? Do you really think I hate you, brother? In all the correspondence you and I had, you never mentioned that you had ought against me.

Chad
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top