Is It Wise to Introduce the Nicene Creed to a Young Adult Gathering?

[NoahBBigley]

Hey Everyone,

Peace be with you!

To give some context to this question...I am currently the College Pastor at a Baptist Church that holds to the Baptist Faith and Message (I personally hold to the Second London Baptist Confession of 1689...mods don't kick me from the Puritan Board), can be best categorized as "low church" in their view of a defined liturgy in Sunday service, and has a young adult gathering every 1st and 3rd Thursday, which I oversee.

At the moment we provide dinner for students, spend time eating and conversing with one another, have a time for annoucements for upcoming events, a time for praise through worship music (mostly contemporary Christian worship), a teaching, and then small groups following for further application of the sermon. As of recently, I have been praying through adding in a time to recite the Nicene Creed together, replace our current song selections with hyms (led by our contemporary insturments) rather than contemporary worship songs, including adding a specific time to sing the Doxology.

My hope has been that this will encourage our young adults to grow in their hunger for a deeper understanding of who God is and what His Church believes.

Since many of you either lead or are members at a church that have a higher view of a defined liturgy, my questions is, "Is it wise to introduce these elements into our Thursday evening liturgy?"

Have a blessed day!

Grace and peace,
Noah Benjamin Bigley

 

[py3ak]

It is wise to introduce the historic Christian faith, but the way to do so without causing problems requires a little bit of consideration.

If you are planning to overhaul the whole approach, it would be good to discuss that first and have some explanation. If you're planning on introducing something new and seeing how people receive it, it is usually best to introduce change slowly instead of abruptly rendering the event unrecognizable overnight.

 

[John Nyberg]

I can’t speak to the wisdom of making the creed a part of the liturgy in the context you are speaking about. I can say that introducing the creeds to my young children during family worship has been exceedingly fruitful. My daughter has not yet begun to read, yet she can recite the apostles creed nearly word for word (it is very sweet to hear).

Forgive the digression, I only mean to say that I think the creeds, especially the Nicene, are so inexhaustible in their richness that you honestly can’t go wrong by introducing them to your college students. Does it have to be formal/liturgical? I don’t know. Maybe keep it casual? Maybe go through a teaching series on it with the added goal of memorization? Good on you for wanting to introduce these men and women to their Christian heritage.

 

[Ed Walsh]

My practice is always giving newbies both barrels. Maybe not wise but that's what I've done and often this worked out pretty well. Push people farther than you think they can go and be pleasantly surprised when they go to the distance. I don't know if that's my advice I'm just telling you what my MO was mainly in my youth.

 

[Clariz]

It is absolutely wise.
Your instinct to anchor them in the Creeds reminds me of the 'Christian Halls' organization. They are working to bring Christian education back to local communities, going beyond denominational lines, which is vital with so many 'woke' universities around these days.

One of their core requirements is to affirm a statement of faith, specifically the Nicene Creed. This is a crucial distinction because it draws a line that groups like the Mormons cannot cross. In an age of confusion, those ancient boundaries are more important than ever for young adults.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Unless you have been explicitly told that the ministry is "yours" to craft and shape it to your whims, then it isn't wise to dramatically change the format of one of the church's ministries without input from your higher ups. Don't seek counsel here, seek counsel from your pastor.

 

[NoahBBigley]

Hey Everyone,

Peace be with you!

Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts on this matter. It means a ton! After reading what you shared, here are a few of my concluding reflections:

1. I deeply value my church, its leadership, and would never want to cause any sort of liturgical whiplash that would be hurtful to people's spiritual growth or undermine the spread of the gospel for our local church. These changes would not be done over the span of one young adult gathering, but rather in the period of six months to a year. I am hoping to gently steer our liturgy to a place that can be more effective for building an understanding of our historic faith, and hopefully building disciples in general. There seems to be a growing hunger for theological depth amongst the young adults I talk too.

2. I saw some thoughtful and wise concern about the potential of overstepping my boundaries in shaping our young adult ministry. I will add for context that it is within my role's description to lead this ministry at my local church, so as far as I know, it would not be outside the bounds of what my local church has asked of me in shepherding our young adults. My supervisor and pastor have taken more of a 'delegation approach' to my role as well as the college ministry at our church.

Have a blessed week!

Grace and peace,
Noah Benjamin Bigley

 

[darrellmaurina]

Rev. Ben is right. (See Ben, I said this about your twice in one day, on two different threads!)

Noah, one of the challenges of being Reformed in a non-Reformed context is that you do not have confessions that define what your church is supposed to look like in its doctrine, in its life, and in its worship. You need to make sure your deacon board or other church council or supervisory authority are in agreement with what you do. Asking forgiveness rather than permission may work in the Army (Ben knows the reference) but it doesn't work well in the church.

Another factor many of us "traditional Reformed" people may not recognize -- the use of the Nicene Creed in the Southern Baptist Convention turned into an unwanted controversy and led to a seminary professor leaving the SBC and becoming Anglican. I know the issues were not clearcut and this is not, as it has sometimes been presented, a case of "those Baptists said 'no' to the Nicene Creed." But the controversy **HAS** empowered the "no creed but Christ" wing of the Southern Baptist Convention, and that means people who are perceived as "pushing the Nicene Creed" may be wrongly assumed to be trying to promote a "divisive agenda."

In a non-creedal and non-confessional church, perceptions matter more than facts. Relationships count more than rules. That's a major part of why I am Reformed and confessional, and not YRR or broadly evangelical, though I have spent most of my life in circles where confessionalism is REALLY rare.

You've chosen to minister in a non-confessional church context. Make sure that if you introduce creeds and confessions, your leadership is okay with that, or you may be coming to the Puritan Board asking if any church is willing to consider you for a call.

On a "Devil's Advocate" track, here's another consideration. You are on the Puritan Board. Those of us from a Dutch Reformed tradition are used to things like reciting the Creed in worship, but there are people in the Puritan tradition, both Congregationalists and some Presbyterians, who at the time of the Westminster Assembly believed that no man-made elements belong in worship, not even the Creed. Teaching the Creed in classes is not the same as using it in worship. This is an issue on which the most conservative elements of the Reformed world, in reaction against Anglicanism, took a stance four centuries ago that today is often identified with non-Reformed people.

Sometimes people do the same thing for totally different reasons. A high church liturgy person using the Nicene Creed in worship is NOT doing it for the same reasons that a Reformed person does, and a Reformed person who refuses to use any creed in worship may be following the Dissenting Brethren at Westminster, or others in the Puritan tradition, rather than being "no creed but Christ" evangelicals.

My personal view? In a nondenominational church with no creedal foundation, DO NOT use the creeds in worship. They are not part of your toolbox and will raise questions. People are going to be asking, "I thought this was a Baptist church. Why do we use creeds in worship?"

What you can do is teach them in classes where people can ask questions and get them answered.

Unless you have been explicitly told that the ministry is "yours" to craft and shape it to your whims, then it isn't wise to dramatically change the format of one of the church's ministries without input from your higher ups. Don't seek counsel here, seek counsel from your pastor.

My hope has been that this will encourage our young adults to grow in their hunger for a deeper understanding of who God is and what His Church believes.

Since many of you either lead or are members at a church that have a higher view of a defined liturgy, my questions is, "Is it wise to introduce these elements into our Thursday evening liturgy?"

 

[SolaScriptura]

Rev. Ben is right. (See Ben, I said this about your twice in one day, on two different threads!)

Don't worry, I won't let it go to my head!

 

[darrellmaurina]

Don't worry, I won't let it go to my head!

I guess my point was when the "Puritanboard Brimstone" and the "Fiery Italian Calvinist" are being nice to each other, well... don't know what that means! Twice in one day. Wow!

On a more serious point, I prefer dealing with people like you who speak clearly about what they believe. That's kind of baked into my DNA. I had to learn to turn my volume down with the Dutch and even farther down now that I live in the rural South. And don't even get me started on Korean niceness to people's faces compared to what gets said behind people's backs, or how people hint around rather than giving a clear "no," or say "yes" with no intent do actually do what they've just said "yes" to.

Take that as a compliment, Rev. Ben. We've disagreed. That's fine. What's not fine is when I think I have an agreement with someone and find out later I don't, when I could have addressed the problem up front and fixed it.

I'm no fan of Carl McIntire but he had a point about the difference between the Northern and the Southern Presbyterians being that the Southerners were too nice to have the necessary fights. He predicted the Southern church would never split, unlike the North. He was wrong, and time has proven that his approach to conflict generated unnecessary fights, and he wasn't just wrong about the old PCUS never splitting. The Southern Baptists also split, and the conservatives won. McIntire would be amazed, and likely say he'd misjudged the South, and that sweet tea can turn into fire when a Southerner gets mad enough.

Still, he had a point about an inherent problem of Christians who think niceness is the primary value. Time will tell if the PCA decides being nice is less valuable than other values. I hope the PCA makes the right decisions, and with men like @fredtgreco getting nominated as Stated Clerk, I'm cautiously optimistic.

 

[sc_q_jayce]

And don't even get me started on Korean niceness to people's faces compared to what gets said behind people's backs, or how people hint around rather than giving a clear "no," or say "yes" with no intent do actually do what they've just said "yes" to.

You mean you're not tired of throwing gifts at people and shutting the door behind you so you can't get any back? You're not tired of taking people at their word when they tell you they'll treat you next time when they actually don't mean it? You mean you're not tired when you tell someone else you liked someone's garden vegetables only for a bunch of the vegetables to show up at your backyard patio unannounced?

Truthfully, it's been fun teaching my wife on to do the indirect dance as it's been very useful for her to befriend and share life with our South Asian neighbors. Not quite the same as East Asian indirect culture, but very very similar.

But this lesson can be applied equally to your church situation where the rules of the church are largely unspoken. This is also true in many Reformed churches as well. Things you would never think about asking about, like:

• Don't think about reserving a room in the teaching wing without letting so-and-so know.
• If you move the piano for any reason, you might not make it out alive the next day.
• Yes, the pastor sets the teaching curriculum, but so-and-so sets up the class calendar, and if you're not on it, you're not teaching.
• If it smells even remotely Roman Catholic, then it's definitely Roman Catholic, and Roman Catholic is bad. Creeds can easily fall into this.

So yes, on paper or even verbally you're told you can do what you want as they've delegated it out to you. But as it turns out, it's much more complex than that when personalities are on the line.

 

[darrellmaurina]

You mean you're not tired of throwing gifts at people and shutting the door behind you so you can't get any back? You're not tired of taking people at their word when they tell you they'll treat you next time when they actually don't mean it? You mean you're not tired when you tell someone else you liked someone's garden vegetables only for a bunch of the vegetables to show up at your backyard patio unannounced?

Truthfully, it's been fun teaching my wife on to do the indirect dance as it's been very useful for her to befriend and share life with our South Asian neighbors. Not quite the same as East Asian indirect culture, but very very similar.

But this lesson can be applied equally to your church situation where the rules of the church are largely unspoken. This is also true in many Reformed churches as well. Things you would never think about asking about, like:

• Don't think about reserving a room in the teaching wing without letting so-and-so know.
• If you move the piano for any reason, you might not make it out alive the next day.
• Yes, the pastor sets the teaching curriculum, but so-and-so sets up the class calendar, and if you're not on it, you're not teaching.
• If it smells even remotely Roman Catholic, then it's definitely Roman Catholic, and Roman Catholic is bad. Creeds can easily fall into this.

So yes, on paper or even verbally you're told you can do what you want as they've delegated it out to you. But as it turns out, it's much more complex than that when personalities are on the line.

Spot on, Elder Kong.

(Americans: Notice that I'm using his title, not his first name, as a sign of respect. We could learn from Asians on this point of respect for office.)

I don't know if this is deliberate, but notice how the entire structure of his comment starts with things nearly all of us would agree are wrong, or are problems, and only at the very end does he get to the point that "If it smells even remotely Roman Catholic, then it's definitely Roman Catholic, and Roman Catholic is bad. Creeds can easily fall into this. So yes, on paper or even verbally you're told you can do what you want as they've delegated it out to you. But as it turns out, it's much more complex than that when personalities are on the line."

This is an Asian way of addressing church problems and I can cite some examples of that in how some Bible books first address criticism to the nations around Israel and then turn the criticism on Israel, with full force.

This is not a criticism but an observation.

Different cultures have different ways of doing things. I probably was a "bull in the Dutch china shop" in my twenties, breaking beautiful Delftware all over the place as collateral damage during the fight against Christian Reformed liberalism. There are REASONS why a number of the leaders of the secession were not Dutch. We didn't know there were things that are "not supposed to be said" and DEFINITELY "not supposed to be done."

Grand Rapids was my hometown. I could get away with some of that because I knew how the Dutchmen acted on the six days of the week they weren't in church from my family background in politics. "Don't play that game with me, Elder VanderSomething, I know how you run your business and I won't take that complaint from someone like you about how I talk and how I write." Let's just say Dutch can be blunt and direct when they want to be. Just not usually in church life.

Pastor Bigley knows his people. I don't. Most of us don't.

What I do know is that care and caution is prudent, and it's biblically required to follow the orders of those in spiritual authority over him. If he can't do that, in a nonconfessional/noncreedal context where he can't hold the leaders accountable to a written doctrinal standard that is detailed and specific, he needs to resign.

Certainly we hope it doesn't come to that, but that's the consequence of being in a non-confessional church.

 

[NoahBBigley]

You mean you're not tired of throwing gifts at people and shutting the door behind you so you can't get any back? You're not tired of taking people at their word when they tell you they'll treat you next time when they actually don't mean it? You mean you're not tired when you tell someone else you liked someone's garden vegetables only for a bunch of the vegetables to show up at your backyard patio unannounced?

Truthfully, it's been fun teaching my wife on to do the indirect dance as it's been very useful for her to befriend and share life with our South Asian neighbors. Not quite the same as East Asian indirect culture, but very very similar.

But this lesson can be applied equally to your church situation where the rules of the church are largely unspoken. This is also true in many Reformed churches as well. Things you would never think about asking about, like:

• Don't think about reserving a room in the teaching wing without letting so-and-so know.
• If you move the piano for any reason, you might not make it out alive the next day.
• Yes, the pastor sets the teaching curriculum, but so-and-so sets up the class calendar, and if you're not on it, you're not teaching.
• If it smells even remotely Roman Catholic, then it's definitely Roman Catholic, and Roman Catholic is bad. Creeds can easily fall into this.

So yes, on paper or even verbally you're told you can do what you want as they've delegated it out to you. But as it turns out, it's much more complex than that when personalities are on the line.

Elder Kong,

Peace be with you!

Thank you for your insight here!

A little update now that this post is a few weeks old! I talked to my direct supervisor about this and he and I decided to introduce the language without adding creeds as a part of the liturgy! I think this is a helpful medium, and avoids the problem you wisely noted above.

We introduced two hymns into our worship set last Thursday amongst other contemporary songs and it was amazing to see how the room responded. A few people, including myself, were unsure how they would receive it, but they didn't skip a beat.

Have a blessed day!

Grace and peace,
Noah Benjamin Bigley

Post automatically merged: Mar 1, 2026

Spot on, Elder Kong.

(Americans: Notice that I'm using his title, not his first name, as a sign of respect. We could learn from Asians on this point of respect for office.)

I don't know if this is deliberate, but notice how the entire structure of his comment starts with things nearly all of us would agree are wrong, or are problems, and only at the very end does he get to the point that "If it smells even remotely Roman Catholic, then it's definitely Roman Catholic, and Roman Catholic is bad. Creeds can easily fall into this. So yes, on paper or even verbally you're told you can do what you want as they've delegated it out to you. But as it turns out, it's much more complex than that when personalities are on the line."

This is an Asian way of addressing church problems and I can cite some examples of that in how some Bible books first address criticism to the nations around Israel and then turn the criticism on Israel, with full force.

This is not a criticism but an observation.

Different cultures have different ways of doing things. I probably was a "bull in the Dutch china shop" in my twenties, breaking beautiful Delftware all over the place as collateral damage during the fight against Christian Reformed liberalism. There are REASONS why a number of the leaders of the secession were not Dutch. We didn't know there were things that are "not supposed to be said" and DEFINITELY "not supposed to be done."

Grand Rapids was my hometown. I could get away with some of that because I knew how the Dutchmen acted on the six days of the week they weren't in church from my family background in politics. "Don't play that game with me, Elder VanderSomething, I know how you run your business and I won't take that complaint from someone like you about how I talk and how I write." Let's just say Dutch can be blunt and direct when they want to be. Just not usually in church life.

Pastor Bigley knows his people. I don't. Most of us don't.

What I do know is that care and caution is prudent, and it's biblically required to follow the orders of those in spiritual authority over him. If he can't do that, in a nonconfessional/noncreedal context where he can't hold the leaders accountable to a written doctrinal standard that is detailed and specific, he needs to resign.

Certainly we hope it doesn't come to that, but that's the consequence of being in a non-confessional church.

Darrell,

Peace be with you!

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this!

A few notes to help give some context to my local church. Our church holds to the Baptist Faith and Message as a confession. This would be what the whole of the SBC would agree with, however within my SBC context I personally hold to the London Baptist Confession.

Have a blessed day!

Grace and peace,
Noah Benjamin Bigley