Is it wise to attend a pagan worship service?

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About a year ago I attended the funeral service of a friend who was Catholic, which included a funeral Mass. I did this to show respect for the family, but still felt like a fish out of water. I did not participate in the mass or even the corporate response portions of the service, since I wasn't familiar with the content and did not want to find myself affirming something false or blasphemous.

So what would the brothers and fathers here on the PB think of a situation like this? Was I wrong in attending a Roman Catholic service at all? At the time I felt it was the right thing to do, but I am no longer so certain.
 
About a year ago I attended the funeral service of a friend who was Catholic, which included a funeral Mass. I did this to show respect for the family, but still felt like a fish out of water. I did not participate in the mass or even the corporate response portions of the service, since I wasn't familiar with the content and did not want to find myself affirming something false or blasphemous.

So what would the brothers and fathers here on the PB think of a situation like this? Was I wrong in attending a Roman Catholic service at all? At the time I felt it was the right thing to do, but I am no longer so certain.

This sounds like one of the possible exceptional situations, particularly if you knew the deceased and his family and friends. And, were right to abstain from the several practices. And right to be uncomfortable about it.

I had one similar circumstance, and God arranged it so I was given 10 minutes to clearly present the Gospel, relate it to the deceased's life, to 1,000 Roman Catholics! What was even more astounding was it got back to me later, the "priest" liked what I said.
 
I think Boliver is looking at this as a "meat offered to idols" matter like Paul talked about in I Corinthians.

You mean where Paul told the Corinthians in 1 Cor. 10 NOT to eat meat sacrificed to idols if they were told that's what it was?
 
For other ex-Roman Catholics, how do you handle marriages and deaths when nuptual and requiem masses are involved? especially with close famly members? No communion of course, but do you attend?
 
For other ex-Roman Catholics, how do you handle marriages and deaths when nuptual and requiem masses are involved? especially with close famly members? No communion of course, but do you attend?

I'm ex-RC so I have RC family. We attend an occasional wedding or funeral. We aren't there to participate in a mass, we go to rejoice with or comfort other family members. These days half the people in attendance at a Catholic wedding or funeral don't participate in the mass either.
 
Given the huge population of Catholics here on the Coast, it is not unusual for me to feel obligated to attend a couple of RC funerals a year. I don't "participate" in the mass, or intinction (Honestly, they don't seem to be real picky about screening non-Catholics, not that I would even think about it), shake off the dust when its over, and go on with life.
 
I think Boliver is looking at this as a "meat offered to idols" matter like Paul talked about in I Corinthians.

You mean where Paul told the Corinthians in 1 Cor. 10 NOT to eat meat sacrificed to idols if they were told that's what it was?

I believe the τις in verse 28 refers to a weaker believer. Paul is saying that he should not make a practice of eating the meat for the weaker brother's conscience.
 
My father died in 2003, a lifelong, self-professed atheist. He was a baptized Catholic and a generally mean individual who attended church only as my mother made him do it. When I was converted in 1995, he told me - as he had so many times over the course of my life - that I was "stupid to believe in God." I tried to attend his funeral, but, with the open casket at the back of the church and the priest saying, "As ****'s parents presented him for baptism as an infant and as he then became a child of God, so we return him to his heavenly father," I got suddenly severely nauseous. This was about a minute into the funeral. My husband whispered to me, "You've had enough, haven't you? Let's go." We left and sat in the vestibule for the rest of the requiem mass, out of earshot of the whole thing. Now there are to be weddings and funerals of family members and friends' parents, respectively. I will not sit through a "Scripture service" (held the night before an actual funeral) as the rosary is always recited in those things, nor will I attend a nuptial mass, even for a family member. I intend to make an appearance at the church and then slip out the side door when the mass starts, rejoining the family hopefully before the "priest" says, "The new Mr. and Mrs. ********!" I hope no one notices but if they do, too bad. I'll, uh, "slurp it up."
 
Thanks for the responses friends, it has been a helpful conversation (although methinks that certain tracks might be generating more heat than light). At any rate, allow me to be more clear in what my intentions are. There are really two situations where I am considering attending a pagan worship service:

1) I'm preparing to teach a class on Eastern Orthodoxy in the spring as we have several members of our local church who have left the faith for this false religion. There is a considerable Orthodox community here and I thought it might be worthwhile to attend one of their worship services as I seek to better understand and interact with my Orthodox friends (and as I seek to educate other members of the church about the beliefs and practices of Eastern Orthodoxy.)

2) The other context in which I might attend would be a Roman Catholic mass. We have some neighbors who are dear friends who do not know the Lord and are devout Catholics. I'm wondering if attending a mass might not help to spur conversation and help in understanding their spiritual condition.

The words that have already been spoken are wise ones, I will not be participating in the liturgy, communion, or worship of these bodies but simply observing. As such, I would probably let the "church" know in advance who I am and why I am coming.
 
Thanks for the responses friends, it has been a helpful conversation (although methinks that certain tracks might be generating more heat than light). At any rate, allow me to be more clear in what my intentions are. There are really two situations where I am considering attending a pagan worship service:

1) I'm preparing to teach a class on Eastern Orthodoxy in the spring as we have several members of our local church who have left the faith for this false religion. There is a considerable Orthodox community here and I thought it might be worthwhile to attend one of their worship services as I seek to better understand and interact with my Orthodox friends (and as I seek to educate other members of the church about the beliefs and practices of Eastern Orthodoxy.)

2) The other context in which I might attend would be a Roman Catholic mass. We have some neighbors who are dear friends who do not know the Lord and are devout Catholics. I'm wondering if attending a mass might not help to spur conversation and help in understanding their spiritual condition.

The words that have already been spoken are wise ones, I will not be participating in the liturgy, communion, or worship of these bodies but simply observing. As such, I would probably let the "church" know in advance who I am and why I am coming.

Ben, there is plenty of food for thought here, and you are to be commended for inquiry here- this can be difficult in light of our calling.

One final two cents worth,
consider the difference between "observing" and "participating," from the true God's standpoint.

And also, new media allowing one to research without "going."

Blessings.
 
If the poison is designed to attack cancer, or if the poison is of a small enough dose to help your body develop antibodies, if the poison is arsenic and is designed to kill parasites, if the rat poison is in the pill form warfarin and I am taking it to prevent blood clots.

The list can go on and on. Poisons have their purpose. So to learning from poisonous theology is beneficial. If it wasn't then why do we learn about various heresies in seminary and why are we examined on our knowledge of such heresies during ordination examination?

Being obtuse isn't the way to go on this one. You know precisely what was meant by the poison analogy. He can very well learn of those religions without participating in them. There are books abounding on the subject.

Roger that! I don't have to shoot myself in the leg to find out if it hurts
 
We are to "(a)bstain from all appearance of evil." (1 Thessalonians 5:21.)

This is actually a KJV mistranslation. εἴδους is best translated in context "every form of evil" (NASB, HCSB, ESV, NKJV) or "every kind of evil" (NIV). It doesn't mean to abstain from anything that appears to be evil.

I agree with most of you in that we ought not take communion in churches which do not preach a true gospel.

I am curious, though: Did Paul and the other Apostles participate in the Jewish worship services when they preached in the synagogues?
 
We are to "(a)bstain from all appearance of evil." (1 Thessalonians 5:21.)

This is actually a KJV mistranslation. εἴδους is best translated in context "every form of evil" (NASB, HCSB, ESV, NKJV) or "every kind of evil" (NIV). It doesn't mean to abstain from anything that appears to be evil.

I agree with most of you in that we ought not take communion in churches which do not preach a true gospel.

I am curious, though: Did Paul and the other Apostles participate in the Jewish worship services when they preached in the synagogues?

That used to be a legitimate use of the word "appearance," so it was not technically a mistranslation. In fact, we sometimes use it similarly today, whenever we use appearance in a way that means occurence, i.e. not a literal visual appearance.

Judaism as it exists today has nothing to do with the Jewish worship in Christ's time. It was invented long after. However, the synagogues had not rejected Christ when Paul visited them. When they rejected Christ, Paul would start a church elsewhere. I have heard my pastor (Rev. Todd Ruddell) say if the synagogue in a given city had received Paul's message, it would have become the church in that city, albeit allowing Gentiles full participation.
 
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Thanks for the responses friends, it has been a helpful conversation (although methinks that certain tracks might be generating more heat than light). At any rate, allow me to be more clear in what my intentions are. There are really two situations where I am considering attending a pagan worship service:

1) I'm preparing to teach a class on Eastern Orthodoxy in the spring as we have several members of our local church who have left the faith for this false religion. There is a considerable Orthodox community here and I thought it might be worthwhile to attend one of their worship services as I seek to better understand and interact with my Orthodox friends (and as I seek to educate other members of the church about the beliefs and practices of Eastern Orthodoxy.)

2) The other context in which I might attend would be a Roman Catholic mass. We have some neighbors who are dear friends who do not know the Lord and are devout Catholics. I'm wondering if attending a mass might not help to spur conversation and help in understanding their spiritual condition.

The words that have already been spoken are wise ones, I will not be participating in the liturgy, communion, or worship of these bodies but simply observing. As such, I would probably let the "church" know in advance who I am and why I am coming.

Ben, I strongly urge you to forgo even attendance upon this false worship. As I mentioned previously, God's Law is not neutral with regard to idolatry and blasphemy. There is a positive requirement that we must disapprove, detest, and oppose all false worship. Please, I ask others to present Scriptural arguments for tolerant attendance. Can anyone present a Biblical commendation of anyone who attended upon false worship? The only reason for which godly Israelites drew near to false worship was to destroy the false altars and Asherah poles.

From a personal standpoint, I know that I can have the sinful tendency to want to approach such things as a "neutral" observer to satisfy my curiosity. I cannot speak from any moral high ground since I have indeed shamefully attended upon Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Mormon false worship in the past with silent tolerance. It is certainly true that such attendance will break down relational barriers with adherents of these faiths. However, it is at the cost of the truth and honoring God. As a fellow struggling sinner, I plead with you to cultivate a holy abhorrence of idolatry and blasphemy such that you may find your spirit stirred within you as that of the Apostle Paul (Acts 17:16). If Nadab and Abihu were consumed with fire for their false worship, should we not learn to stand far clear from the like?
 
Even if you hold sincerely to it, Friend, your seemingly defensive and smart alecky dismissal of others' warnings - especially from other ministers of the Gospel - is troublesome.

I think that's the part that disturbs me the most. The responses seem to be smart aleck and disrespecful and the spirit unteachable. Not good indications of what may or may not be going on in the heart.

---------- Post added at 09:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:49 PM ----------

I do appreciate your words of caution. They come across as well thought out and sincere.

I think everyone's comments come across as well thought out and sincere. :think: Wow...this whole thing is odd.
 
There are really two situations where I am considering attending a pagan worship service:

1) I'm preparing to teach a class on Eastern Orthodoxy in the spring as we have several members of our local church who have left the faith for this false religion. There is a considerable Orthodox community here and I thought it might be worthwhile to attend one of their worship services as I seek to better understand and interact with my Orthodox friends (and as I seek to educate other members of the church about the beliefs and practices of Eastern Orthodoxy.)

2) The other context in which I might attend would be a Roman Catholic mass. We have some neighbors who are dear friends who do not know the Lord and are devout Catholics. I'm wondering if attending a mass might not help to spur conversation and help in understanding their spiritual condition.

Ben, I think it's commendable that you desire to grow in knowledge of false religions that you might witness to others better, but why can't you just read some books on Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism to better educate yourself about their practices/beliefs?
 
I think everyone's comments come across as well thought out and sincere. Wow...this whole thing is odd.

What is odd is the idea that everyone needs a pat on the back and told a good job.

Just because I spoke to Josh does not reveal my feelings one way or another about anything else that was said by everyone else.
 
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This whole thread has aspects about it that leave me puzzled, as if some folk here are privy to some inside joke, to which I remain outside.

At any rate, Ben, I wonder why someone as young as you, someone who is a student, would be teaching, or perhaps I should say, would be asked to teach, a class on Eastern Orthodoxy. Should this not be taught by someone more mature (the pastor?) who is steeped in the faith, who has studied EO over the years, and can deal with this in a way edifying to the whole class? And a whole class on this? I would think that a few well-planned sessions would be able to convey what the class needs to hear.

I was asked in my church several years ago to teach several lessons on Roman Catholicism, along the lines of its historical development and how we might best engage our RCC friends biblically and theologically. There was a convert from Catholicism who wanted to teach it, but the church wanted someone with signficant historical and theological experience to teach it.

The best thing that most laymen should do with respect to EO and RCC (for example) is to know your own faith well--the Reformed faith, I mean--to be assured, and contented, in it and to read a bit about those other faiths or study a bit with someone who knows about them and who is solidly Reformed. I would never ask someone to teach on these in the church unless they were either seminary trained in the faith and in the error or something close to it.

This is fire and those who handle it should be well trained in our faith, in signficant depth. And in how to identify, understand, and deal with error. I have known very capable men who have taken up the study of these things and have gone over to Rome (or Greece). One's motives have to be right, one's heart has to be right, and one's head has to be right. I regard this all as daunting and I am experienced in these areas. This is not for the weak. You should be very careful, brother. I would not want to see you go astray.

Peace,
Alan
 
:offtopic: I am sorry if this is off topic (and it is) however did anyone have shawshank redemption pop into their minds when they said obtuse. like every time it was crazy!

Anyways, I would agree with the majority of this thread. I am in serious need of repentance daily so I am saying this in love, just repent dude. It will be okay. Pride will be hurt and God's will will be done.
 
Am I one of the few who doesn't quite think Bolivar was on the wrong?

Really what Bolivar brought about, and the points he brought about weren't even addressed in this thread at all. They were avoided and people just brought their own points, and then when Bolivar avoided them, they were bewildered by it.

Worship can be done at home, you can worship the true God in a Jewish service, or a Catholic service. I definitely don't advise attending these places, but still.

Communion is a specific thing you do according to the Word, for worship, yes. But he wasn't partaking in communion in these churches. Their communion was false, and really all they were doing was eating some bread and drinking some wine. Many things in this thread were assumed against Bolivar, like what people knew about him, why he was there, etc.

Much of the things seen against Bolivar that might be seen as wrong I honestly see as just trying to have a sense of humor about things. It doesn't necessarily mean he was trying to come across as prideful or arrogant. Typing online, through emails, or really anything online can be deceiving, because you don't hear, or see a persons reaction, and you can't hear their true tone.

I think Joshua gave great food for thought for Bolivar, and perhaps he was a little prideful and in sin during this discussion, however this shouldn't be assumed in my mind, and definitely not obvious. And I'm also not trying to give him an excuse if he was in sin. My point is perhaps he was trying to come across differently then he did. I know there have been times where I have been so prideful in responses, people came at me and I repented afterwards. There have been sometimes though that I was misunderstood, and people assumed many things and beat me down when it wasn't the case.

But pertaining to the topic, Everything we do is worship. We are around people worshipping themselves everyday. We are around people disgracing God every day. Being around them during their worship service is no different. Elijah had people sacrificing to their god right next to him. Now he was so close to their sacrifices and acts of worship yet he was right there and had his own act of worship to God. While this isn't necessarily a worship service, all a worship service is, is people coming together to glorify God through song and praise, and edify one another, along with God working through His Word, preaching, sacraments, etc. But this is all worship in itself. And other things we do are worship. Church isn't just a building, it's us believers.

Eating a few crackers and being in or near a worship service during it I wouldn't see as wrong. 1 Corinthians 10 is really based off not wanting another brother to stumble. And we don't know enough details about the situation to claim Bolivar did such.
 
Zach, I think I was a little harsh on Boliver, and there were too many people on him at once so I should have let them handle it, but I believe you have missed the points we were making. It really did not require knowledge of who Boliver was with or why. 1 Cor. 10 does not just mention a weaker brother, but unbelievers also. That also isn't the only argument that's been put forth. Bryan Peters' points did not depend on 1 Cor. 10, for instance.

In any case, I think my friend Josh addressed it better than I did.
 
But pertaining to the topic, Everything we do is worship. We are around people worshipping themselves everyday. We are around people disgracing God every day. Being around them during their worship service is no different.

Zach, there is a difference between daily, private worship (and all goings on, for that matter), and the stated, called, corporate worship of God (and in the case of the others -- Jews, Mormons, whatever else -- false god). This needs to be grasped in this discussion. To be in the midst of a stated, called, corporate worship service of a false god, and to partake in the sacraments of such is to partake in/give homage/credence to a false god (intentionally or not).
 
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In Catholic churches one can actually go forward when they adminster the Mass and place your hands across your chest in an X. This indicates that you do not wish to partake of the elements, and the priest will then bless you in the name of the Trinity. That way you show respect but do not partake of the Mass. That from an Anglican.
 
I chose to address Ben in his OP (and follow-up comments) because he posed a serious question meriting serious discussion and answers.

My "I don't get the inside joke" remark had to do with Boliver's part in all of this, which I find baffling.

I don't know if Boliver is saying that he took part in a Jewish or Mormon service and if so what he did in those services. I can't really speak to him or his behavior because it is all unclear to me. Perhaps he was seeking simply, in some way, to be jocular. If so, it was lost on me (my attempts to do so are also sometimes abortive).

If he means that he went to, say, a Mormon service and partook sacramentally, I believe that would be clearly wrong, and I think, at least in some degree, some here have shown that. But this consideration has not been offered, as far as I can tell: we don't get to define what those who regard, wrongly, to be a holy rite, as not subject to the third commandment and something that we may treat as we please. This is like taking an oath not according to the animus imponentis, the mind of the imposing body (how those who are administering it see it), but in a jesuitical fashion, or like Newman did (see Hodge's Church Polity, p. 319). In other words, we can't properly partake of a pagan ritual and disavow guilt because it "meant nothing to us."

The early church did not accept an excuse from those who gave way and burned incense to the genius of the emperor (or bought a document saying, falsely, that they had done so). Some who did alleged that it meant nothing to them because they were not really engaging in emperor worship. But the church replied that such burning meant emperor worship and was interpreted by all of society as that, both pagans and Christians, believing that to do so meant that one was not a Christian, willing instead to worship the emperor. Some food for thought.

Let me repeat: I do not assume that any of us know clearly what Boliver did, if he did anything at all, given his (playful?) evasiveness. And since this is not an ecclesiastical court, he does not have to answer our questions if he chooses not to. I think that it would be helpful for him to clear things up (I would not want things left in confusion) but that's up to him.

Peace,
Alan
 
I don't see anyone is wanting a pat on the back. You missed my point. My point was that you were giving short, testy, nonchalant answers to everyone, then suddenly decided to accept one person's answer as valid, which seemed odd. And that was just my take. You're free to blow my take off, too.
 
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