I'm a glutton but at least I'm not a drunkard...
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How do you define gluttony? I don't mean to come accross as asking a silly question, but it seems that in the church these days there are a myriad of definitions that are given.
For the skinny guys that eat rice cakes and work out, the definition of gluttony is the guy who doesn't work out and enjoys a hearty breakfast and goes up to the potluck table for seconds and is 20 pounds "overweight."
The 20 pound overweight guy usually looks at the 275 pounder and starts thinking about gluttony.
It would seem to me that gluttony and drunkeness are sinful in that they are the opposite actions of temperance and self control, both which are fruits of the Spirit of God. Sin is not to have dominion over us, so to show an inability to pull away from the table and to put the cork back on the bottle is in reality to deny the effect and power of the gospel.
There is no question that obesity is a great problem in America. Is obesity necessarily tied to gluttony? Even as there are those within the church that insist on prohibiting the use of alcohol, there are also those within the church that see a demon in coffee, chocolate, fat, and angel food cake. They also like to poke even the slightly round belly of their brethren and urge them to confess their sin of gluttony.
I don't think that gluttony must necessarily come into play once we are five pounds removed from the recommended weight chart or occasionally like to stuff ourselves during a celebratory feast. I think the sin comes when we no longer have the ability to control our passions and begin to eat in a riotous and excessive manner.
For the skinny guys that eat rice cakes and work out, the definition of gluttony is the guy who doesn't work out and enjoys a hearty breakfast and goes up to the potluck table for seconds and is 20 pounds "overweight."
The 20 pound overweight guy usually looks at the 275 pounder and starts thinking about gluttony.
It would seem to me that gluttony and drunkeness are sinful in that they are the opposite actions of temperance and self control, both which are fruits of the Spirit of God. Sin is not to have dominion over us, so to show an inability to pull away from the table and to put the cork back on the bottle is in reality to deny the effect and power of the gospel.
There is no question that obesity is a great problem in America. Is obesity necessarily tied to gluttony? Even as there are those within the church that insist on prohibiting the use of alcohol, there are also those within the church that see a demon in coffee, chocolate, fat, and angel food cake. They also like to poke even the slightly round belly of their brethren and urge them to confess their sin of gluttony.
I don't think that gluttony must necessarily come into play once we are five pounds removed from the recommended weight chart or occasionally like to stuff ourselves during a celebratory feast. I think the sin comes when we no longer have the ability to control our passions and begin to eat in a riotous and excessive manner.
toddpedlar
Iron Dramatist
Hi Larry -
It's clearly labelled as a "white" glass - right size & shape, although with the opening as large as it is, it probably would do red quite nicely. Lest ye doubt as to the identity of the glass, take a look for comparison at the accompanying set's "red" glass
They both look great...which is why we bought them. For whatever reason, we never actually looked inside, and at the bottom of the box, which would have told us that while they were proportioned nicely, they each were just about 2-3 times too big to avoid appearances of winebibbery Todd
ChristopherPaul
Puritan Board Senior
Todd, those are goblets.
toddpedlar
Iron Dramatist
Now that I think of it, those are of a convenient size - they're just right in fact... one bottle, one glass. Never have to bother about filling everyone's glass to the same level.
Larry Hughes
Puritan Board Sophomore
It’s MUCH more problematic than that, it is sin nature we are looking at in all its ugliness, not to pull a cork or to pull a cork. We are so too much stuck on the externals we are blind, that’s why we NEED the Holy Law to crush that immediately. The issue is addicted to the self and the will and not knowing that the abstainers are of both are just as addicted to themselves as is the drunk/glutton. There is ABSOLUTELY no theological difference in the man that is a drunk or glutton and the man that does not pull a cork or pushes away from the table. How much pride do you experience when you can “not” pull a cork over the poor loathsome drunk or when you can push away from the table over some heavy person who cannot? Do you not feel that insidious addiction to yourself? Boy I do, my greatest struggle with sin is not things of the world so much as it is my addiction to myself in every thing, I cannot escape it. The Law strikes very deadly there. It’s the two sons in the Prodigal all over again. One was a drunkard and a glutton and the other was not, outwardly. But yet in the end they both really wanted the same thing, nothing to do with the father and their own way – the younger son at the beginning, the older son at the end.
The key to the definition of “gluttony” lies within the term itself as unto idolatry to the self or inward turning to the self, that is essentially the sin nature in its barest form, not the external fat or skinny per se which are merely externals. The self seeking the self for life, god-hood, and sovereign rule of self.
Looking at the extremes, an extremely over weight person and an anorexic have the same thing in common, the obsession of food. But more importantly is the inward turning.
In the broadest sense the “glutton” is gluttonous to themselves, food, the over eating or over obsession of not eating/exercise obsession, is merely expressing a deeper issue – the selfish inward turning and thinking that life and sovereign rule is found and sourced there, that is to be my own god. The drunk is really not all that much different. The “wet” drunk is addicted to himself and drinks to express it, the “dry” drunk, the abstainer, is addicted to himself as well (now keep in mind this doesn’t mean someone who simply doesn’t like drink) and does so to express it. Note that all such expressions, open glutton (over weight), hidden glutton (the health nut), wet drunk and dry drunk are all obsessed with themselves and how they are “appearing” to others and presenting themselves, self glorification to others. The negatives assert their self sovereign aggrandizement by an “in your face” approach, the positive glutton/drunk, abstainers, assert their self sovereign aggrandizement by an “look and behold me a god” approach. Both are crying out, I am boss! Yet both are addicted, the opposite of what they think of themselves, in control and power of will. Both need to hear, “You are not in control, you have no will power, not on your own and not by some infused power from God, you are hopelessly addicted and will die that way unless something objective comes your way and calls you out of the grave.”
The religious abstainer is in reality a drunk, he/she is drunk on themselves and that is how they present it. The wet drunk, the one we typically call a “drunk” is self obsessed too which is why they appear so obviously loathsome to us. We say of such, “He’s just thinking of himself and not his family he is ruining.” True enough but it is at least overtly obvious, the dry drunk, the religious or purposeful abstainer is EXCEEDINGLY obsessed with him/herself but their expression of it is “righteous” in the sense that fallen man understands righteousness and outwardly pretty, he/she is moralistic and proudly displays it yet under “humble” appearance or mask which makes it all the more insidious.
This is where the Cross really shatters all of this tom foolery. Because I’m not suppose to be pointing you to me and all my great things I have under control and am exceedingly proud of to show you under a guise of humility. The more humble I can make it appear the prouder I will be of it and carve myself up to be your god even more, I will thus draw all glory to myself under the guise of piety. Rather we should be seeing how WE ALL are by nature addicted to ourselves and the glorification and the sovereignty of our selves and then saying, “There, that Cross, there is our salvation.”
The drunk and the glutton are similar in both their forms, that pull back to one’s self. Yet we point our fingers at the bad drunk/glutton and say, “Look at that wretch”, and then point at the fine clean abstainer and svelte person and say, “behold (as if pointing out a god) a paragon of righteousness, my god and I must imitate them so that I too can be such a god.”
We can see this idea of “drunkenness” in Revelation in which the whore of Babylon is drunk on the blood of the saints, that is to be intoxicated upon their blood or death. What does this mean? It means to reveal in their apparent defeat, blood/death. What does this mean? It goes back to what Paul said concerning the children of the law always persecuting the children of the promise, they seek to be right because their godhood rests upon it. It means that works righteousness, the devil’s piety, is victorious, the whore is thus drunk or intoxicated on their blood because it is an apparent victory for her religion, a “I am right” and we’ve killed the infidels (blood = death = self righteousness wins = self righteousness is life). Watch carefully how for example Muslims revel in the streets after an apparent victory, the righteous destroying the unrighteous, or so they think – it’s drunken/intoxicating revelry in self righteousness, self sovereignty, self glorification, man is really supreme if he is self righteous has won. They are literally drunk and intoxicated on and with themselves. It is a more extreme and explicit example of the principle. Similarly is gluttony, to be gorged or sated with the self as a sovereign god and self righteous, self justified negatively (the open sinner) or positively (the false saint) in and of one’s self.
The key to the definition of “gluttony” lies within the term itself as unto idolatry to the self or inward turning to the self, that is essentially the sin nature in its barest form, not the external fat or skinny per se which are merely externals. The self seeking the self for life, god-hood, and sovereign rule of self.
Looking at the extremes, an extremely over weight person and an anorexic have the same thing in common, the obsession of food. But more importantly is the inward turning.
In the broadest sense the “glutton” is gluttonous to themselves, food, the over eating or over obsession of not eating/exercise obsession, is merely expressing a deeper issue – the selfish inward turning and thinking that life and sovereign rule is found and sourced there, that is to be my own god. The drunk is really not all that much different. The “wet” drunk is addicted to himself and drinks to express it, the “dry” drunk, the abstainer, is addicted to himself as well (now keep in mind this doesn’t mean someone who simply doesn’t like drink) and does so to express it. Note that all such expressions, open glutton (over weight), hidden glutton (the health nut), wet drunk and dry drunk are all obsessed with themselves and how they are “appearing” to others and presenting themselves, self glorification to others. The negatives assert their self sovereign aggrandizement by an “in your face” approach, the positive glutton/drunk, abstainers, assert their self sovereign aggrandizement by an “look and behold me a god” approach. Both are crying out, I am boss! Yet both are addicted, the opposite of what they think of themselves, in control and power of will. Both need to hear, “You are not in control, you have no will power, not on your own and not by some infused power from God, you are hopelessly addicted and will die that way unless something objective comes your way and calls you out of the grave.”
The religious abstainer is in reality a drunk, he/she is drunk on themselves and that is how they present it. The wet drunk, the one we typically call a “drunk” is self obsessed too which is why they appear so obviously loathsome to us. We say of such, “He’s just thinking of himself and not his family he is ruining.” True enough but it is at least overtly obvious, the dry drunk, the religious or purposeful abstainer is EXCEEDINGLY obsessed with him/herself but their expression of it is “righteous” in the sense that fallen man understands righteousness and outwardly pretty, he/she is moralistic and proudly displays it yet under “humble” appearance or mask which makes it all the more insidious.
This is where the Cross really shatters all of this tom foolery. Because I’m not suppose to be pointing you to me and all my great things I have under control and am exceedingly proud of to show you under a guise of humility. The more humble I can make it appear the prouder I will be of it and carve myself up to be your god even more, I will thus draw all glory to myself under the guise of piety. Rather we should be seeing how WE ALL are by nature addicted to ourselves and the glorification and the sovereignty of our selves and then saying, “There, that Cross, there is our salvation.”
The drunk and the glutton are similar in both their forms, that pull back to one’s self. Yet we point our fingers at the bad drunk/glutton and say, “Look at that wretch”, and then point at the fine clean abstainer and svelte person and say, “behold (as if pointing out a god) a paragon of righteousness, my god and I must imitate them so that I too can be such a god.”
We can see this idea of “drunkenness” in Revelation in which the whore of Babylon is drunk on the blood of the saints, that is to be intoxicated upon their blood or death. What does this mean? It means to reveal in their apparent defeat, blood/death. What does this mean? It goes back to what Paul said concerning the children of the law always persecuting the children of the promise, they seek to be right because their godhood rests upon it. It means that works righteousness, the devil’s piety, is victorious, the whore is thus drunk or intoxicated on their blood because it is an apparent victory for her religion, a “I am right” and we’ve killed the infidels (blood = death = self righteousness wins = self righteousness is life). Watch carefully how for example Muslims revel in the streets after an apparent victory, the righteous destroying the unrighteous, or so they think – it’s drunken/intoxicating revelry in self righteousness, self sovereignty, self glorification, man is really supreme if he is self righteous has won. They are literally drunk and intoxicated on and with themselves. It is a more extreme and explicit example of the principle. Similarly is gluttony, to be gorged or sated with the self as a sovereign god and self righteous, self justified negatively (the open sinner) or positively (the false saint) in and of one’s self.
Larry Hughes
Puritan Board Sophomore
Todd,
Those are pretty big, I can see it now the difference. You wine bibber!!! When can I come over?
Those are pretty big, I can see it now the difference. You wine bibber!!! When can I come over?
toddpedlar
Iron Dramatist
Any time, PB'ers are welcome, for a good dinner, conversation and a spot o' wine if you so desire (or a good hoppy ale).
toddpedlar
Iron Dramatist
Thanks for the above post, Larry. So often is it not the case that we have utterly failed to see what God's Word truly calls us to? We so easily fall into the Pharisaical trap of thinking it's all about externals! Sin is SO much more ugly than our external behavior - so much more dark, so much more wretched. We don't often want to go there, for fear of knowing who we truly are inside!
bowhunter1961
Puritan Board Freshman
i never really thought about the "whys" before till just now...i think, with me, over eating is just my lack of faith that the Lord will provide my daily bread. and just because it seems like Hes given us the bread truck, doesnt mean we have to eat it in one sitting.
...as far as wine goes, red wine messes with my allergies....beer, it taste too yeasty for me, but hand me a bock, now i can talk gluttony....lol
...as far as wine goes, red wine messes with my allergies....beer, it taste too yeasty for me, but hand me a bock, now i can talk gluttony....lol
Pilgrim
Puritanboard Commissioner
Good post, Rich.
I'll also point out that Sabbath-breaking is nearly universal in our time, and admit that I need to become more consistent with observing it myself. In many areas, especially the "Bible Belt", many restaurants would likely be closed on Sunday were it not for the hordes of church-goers that patronize them. Of course, Sabbatarians can be just as guilty of gluttony as anyone.
Timothy William
Puritan Board Junior
Something went wrong with my previous post - meant to link to the picture of Capone and add one of Pablo Escobar. At least those who banned alcohol had the legality to pass an Amendment, unlike those who banned hard drugs - but I digress.
There is, perhaps, an greed aspect to this as well. I remember when studying the Poverty and Famine economics unit at Uni that in times of poverty spending on food can account for a substantial majority of all consumer spending. So the person who is a glutton is spending far more money on themselves than the one who eats modestly. Today the situation is very different - I doubt the average overweight person spends much more on food than the thin person, in fact the poor tend to have a slightly higher likelyhood of obesity. Also, the link to gluttony and drunkards in Scripture could have been related to the phenomenon of people getting drunk at feasts, where large amount of food and alcohol was consumed; at least that is the caricature of ancient history that I have come across. Today food and alcohol abuse are less associated; the drunkard is more likely to drink at a pub or at parties where little food and much drink is consumed.
Gluttony can certainly be sinful, but we need to define our terms properly. I'm not convinced that food consumption which makes one heavier that socially desirable counts as gluttony. The glutton is the one whose appetites control him, who makes no effort to eat in moderation, whose mind and heart are set on his stomach, not on the things of God. I doubt that this is much more prevalent among the overweight than among the thin.
There is, perhaps, an greed aspect to this as well. I remember when studying the Poverty and Famine economics unit at Uni that in times of poverty spending on food can account for a substantial majority of all consumer spending. So the person who is a glutton is spending far more money on themselves than the one who eats modestly. Today the situation is very different - I doubt the average overweight person spends much more on food than the thin person, in fact the poor tend to have a slightly higher likelyhood of obesity. Also, the link to gluttony and drunkards in Scripture could have been related to the phenomenon of people getting drunk at feasts, where large amount of food and alcohol was consumed; at least that is the caricature of ancient history that I have come across. Today food and alcohol abuse are less associated; the drunkard is more likely to drink at a pub or at parties where little food and much drink is consumed.
Gluttony can certainly be sinful, but we need to define our terms properly. I'm not convinced that food consumption which makes one heavier that socially desirable counts as gluttony. The glutton is the one whose appetites control him, who makes no effort to eat in moderation, whose mind and heart are set on his stomach, not on the things of God. I doubt that this is much more prevalent among the overweight than among the thin.
Timothy,
I don't think anybody has linked gluttony solely to being overweight but the two cannot be separated. It is no mystery that Americans are 30-40% obese. This statistic does not merely mean that they have a bit of excess fat but are much above what they ought to be. The difference in eating and exercise habits between Americans and other cultures is striking.
I find it interesting how 1 Samuel places especial emphasis on how fat Eli was. His children, as well, were marked by the fact that they were so greedy that they would consume portions of the sacrifice that were meant to be offered to the Lord.
Finally, I think it is important not to become distracted on "this is gluttony but this isn't". I never made nor intended to make the point that a slight weight problem is gluttony nor is gluttony measured in terms of what society deems acceptable. I don't believe, however, that one needs to be constantly obsessed with food in order to be guilty of the sin of gluttony any more than a man needs to be an alcoholic to be occasionally guilty of the sin of being a drunkard.
If a person lacks self-control in the consumption of food or drink then that is the key issue. I was dealing with the hypocrisy of American Christianity with a special obsession concerning prohibition of alcohol that justifies itself with complete abstinence of one gift while abusing the other without any remorse.
I don't think anybody has linked gluttony solely to being overweight but the two cannot be separated. It is no mystery that Americans are 30-40% obese. This statistic does not merely mean that they have a bit of excess fat but are much above what they ought to be. The difference in eating and exercise habits between Americans and other cultures is striking.
I find it interesting how 1 Samuel places especial emphasis on how fat Eli was. His children, as well, were marked by the fact that they were so greedy that they would consume portions of the sacrifice that were meant to be offered to the Lord.
Finally, I think it is important not to become distracted on "this is gluttony but this isn't". I never made nor intended to make the point that a slight weight problem is gluttony nor is gluttony measured in terms of what society deems acceptable. I don't believe, however, that one needs to be constantly obsessed with food in order to be guilty of the sin of gluttony any more than a man needs to be an alcoholic to be occasionally guilty of the sin of being a drunkard.
If a person lacks self-control in the consumption of food or drink then that is the key issue. I was dealing with the hypocrisy of American Christianity with a special obsession concerning prohibition of alcohol that justifies itself with complete abstinence of one gift while abusing the other without any remorse.
Scott
Puritan Board Graduate
Richard Baxter's Christian Directory has a fantastic section on gluttony, which deals with what it is, why it is bad, and how to overcome it. If you have the Directory, check it out. If not, get it! Scott
Scott
Puritan Board Graduate
Here are some guideline from Baxter's The Signs of a Flesh Pleaser. They are general and are not explicitly limited to food, but are broad enough to cover the kinds of desires that lead to overeating. The guidelines below will help evaluate about how to know if you are engaging in glutony. There is no bright line like a 250 pound man is necessarily a glutton or anything. The Directory (mentioned earlier) has a section that expressly deals with gluttony and food. The directory talks about different circumstances affect evaluating whether one is engaging in gluttony, such as how a farmer who works in the field will naturally eat a lot more than a guy who works in an office, and that is ok. Anyway, while general, the items below are useful.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
This is why I said about 43 posts back that the issue really lies in idolatry and covetousness.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Add'l thoughts:
Matthew 11:19 19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds."
The Pharisees and Saduccess saw Jesus as a glutton and drunkard. What measuring stick were they using? In light of Christs perfection, if the definition has to do with food, without a doubt ALL Americans are gluttons and there is no way to avoid this. More accurately, after looking at this a little more, it seems as if the Hebrew definition has to do with 'useless' eating. Example: Eating just for the sake of eating; not as much with the amout of consumption.
Matthew 11:19 19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds."
The Pharisees and Saduccess saw Jesus as a glutton and drunkard. What measuring stick were they using? In light of Christs perfection, if the definition has to do with food, without a doubt ALL Americans are gluttons and there is no way to avoid this. More accurately, after looking at this a little more, it seems as if the Hebrew definition has to do with 'useless' eating. Example: Eating just for the sake of eating; not as much with the amout of consumption.
turmeric
Megerator
So, maybe it was the fact that, instead of being an ascetic, like John the Baptist, Jesus accepted dinner invitations, including invitations from people like Matthew and Zaccheus, who the Pharisees would never eat with. Similar to the criticism Mom has of my church. "Seems like you people are ALWAY eating!" because we have a ladies' breakfast, we go out after church, after homegroup, etc.
She's not seeing the value of fellowship, she thinks it's about food, useless eating.
There has actually been discussion in the SBC of bringing gluttony up at the next convention, and forwarding a resolution on it.
As a side note, Rich, i notice that you're in Asia.....when I was in Asia I ate like a pig, but the food was healthier and I exercised more, so I actually lost weight.
(Not to worry, I gained it back as soon as I got back to the states)
As a side note, Rich, i notice that you're in Asia.....when I was in Asia I ate like a pig, but the food was healthier and I exercised more, so I actually lost weight.
(Not to worry, I gained it back as soon as I got back to the states)
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