Growth of Catholicisim in the Southern US

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This is probably because of the Mexican illegal entry into the U.S. Naturally, Catholicism and liberalism will rise. Catholicism, because they mostly identify with this religion. Liberalism, because they need our government to sustain their place in society.
 
Very interesting article. In the past, majority of RCC growth in the US can be attributed to immigration... example, European immigration waves of 1850-1880's.
 
Immigration is how the North lost it's true faith before the War Between the States. New York became the passage way for the so called doctines of Enlightenment, Higher Criticism, and Catholicism, In my humble opinion. It is growing like crazy here because of the many boarder hoppers that are coming here.

[Edited on 6-28-2005 by puritancovenanter]
 
An interesting read on the issue of immigration and its impact on the "Anglo christian ethic" is Samuel Huntington's "Who are We?" America's identity crisis. He discusses the bifurcation of the country and the polarization and loss of christian influence. He offers some insights along the lines of what this article discusses with Hispanization in America, but overall, I dont believe he is orthodox, and he is simply reacting out of fear that the WASP is losing ground in America. If anyone has read this book it would make for an interesting thread.
 
immigration doesn't explain:
http://timbayly.worldmagblog.com/timbayly/archives/003010.html

or
In the past ten years at least fifty Protestant pastors, mostly evangelicals, have resigned their posts and found their ways to Rome. Every one has endured conflict of mind and heart; every one has sacrificed comfort and security. Many were predisposed by upbringing and training to fear and despise the Catholic Church; the rest simply thought it was the most erroneous of sects. Because one of the hardest parts of the journey is the loneliness, some of the former pastors have formed a fellowship called The Coming Home Network to help

each other on the road. Of its 150 members, about one hundred are still on their ways in; and the list is growing.
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from: http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=135

at least 2 covenant children from my PCA converted to RC after years of anguish and study. something is going on, i'm just not sure exactly what it is.

....
 
Originally posted by Average Joey
Lost man`s favorite religion.
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beautiful idols, beautiful art, beautiful music, beautiful garb, beautiful churches :D: makes me almost want to join. you can't blame the catholics for surviving this long. their religion have everything needed. You guys ever heard Mozart's coronation mass. man, beautiful music, if their ever was one, and Mozart was catholic.
 
What should be the reformed Christian's response to the growing trend of the Hispanization in America and it's effect of increase in numbers to the Catholic Church? As reformed christians, we have a great opportunity for massive mission works to these so called "border hoppers" (as someone put it hear). The mission field has come to our backyards, we no longer need to send missionaries to Latin America, since the mission field is comming here. What is the response of the reformed & presbyterian churches to reaching these people with the Gospel?

I don't think it would've been the response of an Edwards or a Whitfield, that as soon as we get rid of these illegals, we can get back our pure, anglo christian religion.
 
Originally posted by sntijerina
What should be the reformed Christian's response to the growing trend of the Hispanization in America and it's effect of increase in numbers to the Catholic Church? As reformed christians, we have a great opportunity for massive mission works to these so called "border hoppers" (as someone put it hear). The mission field has come to our backyards, we no longer need to send missionaries to Latin America, since the mission field is comming here. What is the response of the reformed & presbyterian churches to reaching these people with the Gospel?

I don't think it would've been the response of an Edwards or a Whitfield, that as soon as we get rid of these illegals, we can get back our pure, anglo christian religion.
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I think this is pretty insightful...Although I disagree with the approach to illegally entering the country, that is more from a civil/lawful perspective. Personally/Christianly evangelism should be first in my mind and regrettfully until I saw your post it hadn't crossed my mind. (not caring about the pure anglo thing - just myopic regarding personal negligence....) Thanks for the post!
 
The reformed Christian response should be to vote in politicians who will not turn their back on illegal immigration. Mexican migrants are breaking the law of the U.S. by entering without proper approval and documentation. If they break this law... they will subsequently break others.

Evangelism does not take precedent over national security (for the individual U.S. Christian citizen). God saves who He saves and He may in fact bring the elect over the border illegally if He so decreed.

Our responsibility rests on protecting our national borders and keeping our language and culture aligned with an established national identity. What national identity will there be 100 years from now? If the secularists don´t destroy us, the immigration will by bringing in more garbage from other cultures (values, ideals, religion, traditions etc.).

There are proper channels for immigration to the United States. Breaking the law from the get-go does not set a precedent... neither does amnesty. Take care of your family, state and country first. Once all three of these are under control, then you may worry about Mexico and all their citizens.
 
Originally posted by Texas Aggie
The reformed Christian response should be to vote in politicians who will not turn their back on illegal immigration. Mexican migrants are breaking the law of the U.S. by entering without proper approval and documentation. If they break this law... they will subsequently break others.

Evangelism does not take precedent over national security (for the individual U.S. Christian citizen). God saves who He saves and He may in fact bring the elect over the border illegally if He so decreed.

Our responsibility rests on protecting our national borders and keeping our language and culture aligned with an established national identity. What national identity will there be 100 years from now? If the secularists don´t destroy us, the immigration will by bringing in more garbage from other cultures (values, ideals, religion, traditions etc.).

There are proper channels for immigration to the United States. Breaking the law from the get-go does not set a precedent... neither does amnesty. Take care of your family, state and country first. Once all three of these are under control, then you may worry about Mexico and all their citizens.
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Brother, I respectfully disagree. Evangelism most certainly does take precedence over national security. The Great Commision was not "protect your borders" but rather "make disciples."

Also, your analysis that if Mexicans break the law to enter the country, then they will break other laws as well cannot be supported. Yes, there are criminals who come into this country illegally. There are also honest men who come to this country because the United States is still the land of oppurtunity. There are men who come here because they cannot feed their families by staying in Mexico, or whatever their native land may be. These men know they will be breaking the law by coming illegally into our country. They know the risks involved. And yet, because they love their wife, their children, their families, and because they believe their children can recieve an education here, can be free here, can excel here, they come. This is not to say that some illegal immigrants come here for evil purposes. It is to say, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

What should the reformed/presbyterian response be to this wave of hispanic immigration? Two words: Learn Spanish.
 
Thanks for your reply Seth,

Have you looked at the FBI statistics lately and seen who is committing a majority of the crimes in the southwest region? Are you privy to who is coming across our southern borders?... those other than mexican migrants?

Evangelism does not take precedent over national security. Tell that to 9/11 victims and see how far you get.

Give me a break on the Great Commission. I see twice as much "teaching" than I do baptizing. Making disciples is a responsibility of fathers and the church. There are churches and fathers in Mexico. God saves who He saves.

Illegal immigrants are breaking the law daily just by being here (therefore they are law breakers day after day). If they break one rule without repercussion, the likelihood of breaking another increases significantly (this was said by God, not me). Honest men do not come to the United States illegally... they are not honest based on the method they arrived.

Since when is Mexico's misfortune, my misfortune as a tax payer? There are ways to get to the United States legally (and documented). Just look at who is paying for their children´s education (since you brought this up). Not sure if you know this, but illegal immigrants do not pay taxes. Who do you think pays for their hospital visits and education (which they have a "right" to)? There is no risk involved for illegal immigration (as long as they can get here).

I find it interesting that you live in California, with such a wonderful tax rate, and do not see a problem with this. Both the baby and the bathwater need to be thrown out immediately until the U.S. government establishes a way to document foreign "workers."

This is no joke Seth. Do some homework on the border infiltration and take a look at the proposals by the Homeland Security Department. Take a closer look at what is not reported in our "politically correct" news and you will be astonished. It's there, but you got to look.

[Edited on 6-29-2005 by Texas Aggie]

[Edited on 6-29-2005 by Texas Aggie]
 
As reformed Christians, we have a great opportunity for massive mission works to these so called "border hoppers" (as someone put it hear).
Click to expand...

I made that statement. I wasn't trying to be degrading. Many of the Mexicans or Hispanics are illegal around here. Just yell green card and they run. I have no problem evangelizing them. In fact the church in general in our area is trying to do it's best to accommodate the situation. But they are coming here and stealing. They have put a strain on the tax system. They have by a large degree fraudulently received fake drivers licences and ID's.

Most of the Hispanics have never heard the gospel and it is totally foreign to their understanding. A guy I discipled has been very active in this ministry. He has recently been looking at going to Nicaragua for missions. We should be concerned about the KINGDOM OF Christ and we should be concerned for security. We are to take care of and protect our own family from harmful influences as much as we are to be influential.

I referred to the illegals as border hoppers because that is what they are. They are climbing over the wall instead of entering in through the gate. Sound familiar? Jesus did talk about this concerning the Kingdom of heaven. I do believe we should evangelize these people but they also need to enter in through the gate instead of climbing over the wall. I mean that spiritually as well as physically. If they do become regenerate they need to repent and enter in legally.

I also believe there is a level of mercy that is needed in understanding this situation. Not every Hispanic nor person of foreign decent is a boarder hopper. Those here legally deserve to be here as much as any USA citizen.

I wasn't correct in referring to all Hispanics as border hoppers. That I apologize for. Their unregenerate faith of Catholicism is growing because they are coming here with the religion of their forefathers. It will pollute the waters if not dealt with properly. In general, they are climbing the walls spiritually as well as physically. And they have brought a lot of Crime to the area. They also seem to get away with it according to Bill O'Reilly on the Factor or No Spin Zone.Fox News Article

[Edited on 6-29-2005 by puritancovenanter]
 
Yes evangelism is more important however the solution is not to throw our borders open and let the heathen in. This would do more harm to us then good for them, as history has shown. In the 1850s with the massive influx of Catholic immigration the 1st thing they did was challenge the protestant character of the american public educational system. We should be sending missonaries to mexico and not permiting armies of cathlo-mexican subversives to proseletize us, literally or by their political influence.
 
Originally posted by Peter
Yes evangelism is more important however the solution is not to throw our borders open and let the heathen in. This would do more harm to us then good for them, as history has shown. In the 1850s with the massive influx of Catholic immigration the 1st thing they did was challenge the protestant character of the american public educational system. We should be sending missonaries to mexico and not permiting armies of cathlo-mexican subversives to proseletize us, literally or by their political influence.
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:ditto: The Church has the biblical responsibility of evangelism, but also has the biblical responsibility to abide by the laws of the land unless those laws force their adherants to sin - and laws preventing immigration do not force us to sin, since though we are commanded to evangelize them, but we can do that by going to their country no matter what our government does with them regarding immigration.
 
The fact of the matter is that they are here illegally and undocumented. This is a national security issue.... not an "opportunity" for evangelism on your part. Your part is to take heed to yourself, protect your family and be concerned with the spiritural growth of your children.

Once that is under control, then you might have a gift from God to worry about the rest of the world.

[Edited on 6-30-2005 by Texas Aggie]

[Edited on 6-30-2005 by Texas Aggie]
 
Last week I met a migrant worker from Mexico who started attending our church. Where others see invasion, I try to see opportunity.

As an aside I find it ironic that our country has such a restrictive immigration policy when one of the grievences in the Declaration of Independence was the King's restrictions on immigration. I would much prefer an open immigration policy than the current state of affairs. Immigration laws are immoral when they prevent people from working and providing for their families.
 
I did something foolish by posting before I read the whole article. It's not about immigration, legal or otherwise! It is primarilly about migration from traditionally RC areas such as the NE. There is a great gulf between the above posts and the reality that is reflected in the report. Please at least read the conclusion.

I'm sure that many Catholics are doing what I did. I moved from the strongly RC area of NE Ohio to NC for a job opportunity. Ohio's population is shrinking while NC is growing. There is a larger trend here.
 
Invasion or no invasion... it does not matter. What matters is the citizens of the United States have declared that illegal immigration is against the law (and there are many reasons for this law... national security being just one).

There are legal ways to migrate to the United States in order to make a better life for oneself. Documented entry is of prime importance. Immigration laws are not immoral by any means (give me a break). We are not the world's welfare check, especially at the expense of the taxpayer.

Documented workers pay taxes, undocumented workers do not (they freeload off the system and this is theft). Either way you look at it, undocumented illegal immigrants are stealing from the American public. They are thieves and they break the law day after day (with no repercussion). Wake up people.
 
Originally posted by Texas Aggie
Documented workers pay taxes, undocumented workers do not (they freeload off the system and this is theft). Either way you look at it, undocumented illegal immigrants are stealing from the American public. They are thieves and they break the law day after day (with no repercussion). Wake up people.
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The blame should not only go to the undocumented worker but also to the economic system that seems to be addicted to cheap labor at any cost (even by breaking its own laws). Remember, you would not have an undocumented worker problem in the US if you did not have businesses that would hire them, folks ready to buy products at cheap prices and politicians ready to capitulate to the desires of their constituents. If you want to be consistent in the application of the law, then you need to severly punish the businesses, severly punish the people who buy from these business that knowingly break the law and severly punish politicians who do not uphold the law. People need to buy willing to say that the will pay more for the cost of goods because it is important to them that there labor laws are upheld. Businesses need to say that they are willing to pay more for the cost of labor because it is important to them that the rule of law is upkept. But there is an inconsistancy in American public policy in that they look the other way when it comes to immigration law, when there are benefits to be gained by breaking there own laws.

Our faith should entirely rest on voting in politicians that will promise to uphold the law. They may or they may not do this. So far they have not been doing this job across the board. In the meantime, what are we to do, just sit back in fear and hope that the elected officials do their job?
How will the uncoverted ever have regard for the rule of law when the government of the land is failing to carry out it's appointed ministry? This is where I believe the opportunity for evangelism. When the Gospel is brought to these people and heart are truly converted, there will be a regard for the Law of God and a regard for the law of the land.

In the absence of the government doing it's appointed job, if you really want to see the undocumented workers return back to their land and return to this country in a legal manner, then you will be real concerned that the Gospel is brought forth to them. I just see no other way.

My apologies are in due order:
*For veering off from the subject of the topic
*For the long winded post
*For any offence that I may have caused to any of my brothers.
 
Originally posted by puritancovenanter
So, are we finding excuses for sin now?
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Brother,

By no means. I hope that is not the message that came forth from my post. I was trying to say that the the punishment of breaking the law needed to be applied across the board: undocumented worker -> business -> politician -> consumer. All are guilty.
 
All sin is sin....from the one tempting to the one falling for the temptation. That is why I love the old saying....Flee From the Wrath to Come.
 
Politicians who ignore this problem should be hanged for treason. Anyone caught aiding and abiding undocumented foreigners in this country should also be tried and executed for treason. There should be no secret smuggling of foreign nationals into this country (and the government is actually beginning to crack down on this to my amazement).

Employers who hire illegal immigrants are also at fault. You are absolutely right Steve, the economic system has a demand for cheap labor (and we have displaced the class structure by allowing such). Welfare is also to blame. If there were limited welfare pay-outs in this country, we would still have cheap labor (no welfare = need for job).

For the interim, there is too much complacency from the American public on this issue (hence little reaction from Washington). Just like 9/11, there will be no action taken until the next calamity is linked to the southern border. A calamity severe enough to rouse the sleeping American public. Mark my words.

As for the Christian and the church, there is no reason to condone such illegal behavior under the guise of evangelism. They are breaking the law and they will break others because there is no repercussion. This is a national security issue that is being ignored because of "political correctness."

Tell it what it is: this is the secret smuggling and infiltration of undocumented foreign nationals into this country. It is the devil who gets you to believe that it is OK to aid and abide these people.

Again, there are legal and documented ways to enter and work in the United States.... without stealing from your family, or hiding in the shadows from our government.
 
Originally posted by Texas Aggie
Politicians who ignore this problem should be hanged for treason. Anyone caught aiding and abiding undocumented foreigners in this country should also be tried and executed for treason.
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Aren't you a little extreme. Who burned your boat? I am sure Christ would say the same thing to you He said to John and James.

(Luk 9:54) And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

(Luk 9:55) But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

I'm not trying to be harsh with you but it seems you have been very angry and seeking the Nations Glory and not God's.

Mind you I am not perfect in this matter either but you seem a little overboard.

Randy
 
No, I wouldn't really want such an enforcement.... the simple democratic measure is just to vote them out of office peacefully. No need for any hangings (I was just bringing out sarcasm to show the seriousness of the issue). Fortunately here in the U.S. we just place a little vote (and not bring out the guillotine).

I think this nation itself shows the glory of God... or at least it used to. The blessings bestowed upon this nation by God are absolutely amazing compared with the rest of the world. Even the poor people are healthy and well fed here in America. Our lives are truly a blessing because of God. Now everyone wants to get here.... and bring their religion and culture with them. I wonder how far the blessings will go?

Unfortunately, when we throw out God, His law and His ways, we are left to ourselves. Sometimes I think we are reaping the last blessings bestowed by God because of the faith and ideals of our nation's forefathers.

Overboard?.... no way. Although my comments on execution/treason were. I would rather just place a vote.
 
Sometimes i forget how intertwined conservative political thought is with traditional Christianity, it is nice to be able to peruse this board and be reminded. Not that there is the slightest logical relationship, it is just that conservatives tend to be conservatives in all their thinking.
so thanks for the reminders here.


.....
 
Originally posted by Texas Aggie
As for the Christian and the church, there is no reason to condone such illegal behavior under the guise of evangelism.
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OK, Texas Aggie, enough is enough. You have touched a nerve in me and you need to look at yourself in a spiritual mirror. You obviously have very strong feelings, but they are based more on emotion rather than fact.

Just so you will know where I am coming from, I pastor a Spanish-speaking church in Denton. More than half of my congregation is probably here illegally. I don't inquire about their immigration status. It is not relevant to the church. Denton's Hispanic population is approximately 15,000. On any given Sunday less than 500 of them are in churches other than the Catholic church. My congregation is the only Reformed Baptist congregation I am aware of in the Dallas/Fort Worth area that speak primarily Spanish. (There are probably a couple of Presbyterian churches in the area.) Truly the field is white unto the harvest.

We are a church. Our mandate is to preach the gospel, not enforce the immigration laws of the U.S. If I were a Border Patrolman, my mandate would be different, but I am not. Acts and Romans makes it plain that the gospel is not for those from a particular country or of a particular race or for those who are in a county legally. While I will not assist anyone to come to the U.S. illegally, neither will I check immigration status before I preach the gospel.

You can rant against illegal immigration all you want, but it cannot be stopped without significant infringment upon the civil rights you hold very dear. The government can't keep drugs out, how do you think it will keep people out? The only way to control it would be to resort to a virtually totalitarian society that requires a national ID card for all employment, all banking transactions, all purchases, access to all government services, etc.. We would have to subject ourselves to roadblocks and searches of our vehicles. Frankly, the cost to stop illegal immigration is higher than I want to pay. If we start on the path to these types of controls, you can bet that similar controls will soon be placed upon churches and ministers. Do you want to have to be licensed by the state to preach the gospel? What if the state came into my church to check the immigration status of my congregation? God forbid.

I in no way am advocating opening the borders. I understand the political, ecological, and economic problems illegal immigration causes. However, I pray I will always approach those problems from a worldview that understands above all God's love for mankind. The answer to nearly all problems, rather spiritual or political, is the power of the gospel. In the 20 years or so I have pastored Spanish-speaking churches, a couple of families who were here illegally returned to Mexico because they felt it was not God's will for them to be in the country illegally. Many more have had their immigration status adjusted through the LEGAL immigration process.

Texas Aggie, I challenge you to pray about your attitude toward this issue faithfully for a period of 30 days. My guess is you have never considered the spiritual lives of those you rail against. I will commit to pray for you as I pray for my brother who has a similar attitude. I have been praying for him for years. I pray your heart is more open to the Spirit of God's love than his has been.

Con oración sincera.
 
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