God's judgment.....can God look after His own?

[Jon Lake]

I hear many Christians say the judgment of God is upon America, this may or not be the case, I am not privy to the counsels of the Godhead, my question is this:If this were the case, what of God's True Covenant people? In the US many Christians voted against the conscience and principles. Many did not, so does Our Lord make a distinction between His own and the unsaved? If so, how would application be made in regard to a Nation? Some might read this and think it mere speculation to which I say, Holy-Writ tells us we are NOT appointed to wrath. Say God wanted to Judge on the growing acceptance of "Gay-Marriage", does He in His mercy mark those of us who oppose such things? If I do EVERYTHING I legally can in this Democracy to oppose it, pray for revival, pray for the eyes of even less than great leaders to be opened and am still judged for the same, it bring into question, the Mercy of God and His Grace for His people. (Forgive me if this is not in the correct forum! I was not sure where it went.)

 

[toddpedlar]

I hear many Christians say the judgment of God is upon America, this may or not be the case, I am not privy to the counsels of the Godhead, my question is this:If this were the case, what of God's True Covenant people? In the US many Christians voted against the conscience and principles. Many did not, so does Our Lord make a distinction between His own and the unsaved? If so, how would application be made in regard to a Nation? Some might read this and think it mere speculation to which I say, Holy-Writ tells us we are NOT appointed to wrath. Say God wanted to Judge on the growing acceptance of "Gay-Marriage", does He in His mercy mark those of us who oppose such things? If I do EVERYTHING I legally can in this Democracy to oppose it, pray for revival, pray for the eyes of even less than great leaders to be opened and am still judged for the same, it bring into question, the Mercy of God and His Grace for His people. (Forgive me if this is not in the correct forum! I was not sure where it went.)

[bible]Hebrews 12:5-7[/bible]

 

[Jon Lake]

I hear many Christians say the judgment of God is upon America, this may or not be the case, I am not privy to the counsels of the Godhead, my question is this:If this were the case, what of God's True Covenant people? In the US many Christians voted against the conscience and principles. Many did not, so does Our Lord make a distinction between His own and the unsaved? If so, how would application be made in regard to a Nation? Some might read this and think it mere speculation to which I say, Holy-Writ tells us we are NOT appointed to wrath. Say God wanted to Judge on the growing acceptance of "Gay-Marriage", does He in His mercy mark those of us who oppose such things? If I do EVERYTHING I legally can in this Democracy to oppose it, pray for revival, pray for the eyes of even less than great leaders to be opened and am still judged for the same, it bring into question, the Mercy of God and His Grace for His people. (Forgive me if this is not in the correct forum! I was not sure where it went.)

[bible]Hebrews 12:5-7[/bible]

So your answer is I would be Judged JUST like those who perform and support a "Gay" marriage despite the fact I find it an abomination, could that verse be out of context here my friend? Also, by your argument, a Christian may as well support abortion, "gay-marriage and what-not. We are going to be judged for it anyway. SURELY this is not what you are saying?

 

[he beholds]

I hear many Christians say the judgment of God is upon America, this may or not be the case, I am not privy to the counsels of the Godhead, my question is this:If this were the case, what of God's True Covenant people? In the US many Christians voted against the conscience and principles. Many did not, so does Our Lord make a distinction between His own and the unsaved? If so, how would application be made in regard to a Nation? Some might read this and think it mere speculation to which I say, Holy-Writ tells us we are NOT appointed to wrath. Say God wanted to Judge on the growing acceptance of "Gay-Marriage", does He in His mercy mark those of us who oppose such things? If I do EVERYTHING I legally can in this Democracy to oppose it, pray for revival, pray for the eyes of even less than great leaders to be opened and am still judged for the same, it bring into question, the Mercy of God and His Grace for His people. (Forgive me if this is not in the correct forum! I was not sure where it went.)

I hear many Christians say the judgment of God is upon America, this may or not be the case, I am not privy to the counsels of the Godhead, my question is this:If this were the case, what of God's True Covenant people? In the US many Christians voted against the conscience and principles. Many did not, so does Our Lord make a distinction between His own and the unsaved? If so, how would application be made in regard to a Nation? Some might read this and think it mere speculation to which I say, Holy-Writ tells us we are NOT appointed to wrath. Say God wanted to Judge on the growing acceptance of "Gay-Marriage", does He in His mercy mark those of us who oppose such things? If I do EVERYTHING I legally can in this Democracy to oppose it, pray for revival, pray for the eyes of even less than great leaders to be opened and am still judged for the same, it bring into question, the Mercy of God and His Grace for His people. (Forgive me if this is not in the correct forum! I was not sure where it went.)

[bible]Hebrews 12:5-7[/bible]

I think that we have to remember that America is not the church, and God disciplining America may, in fact, help the church.

I think we, as Christians, would fit under the disciplining of America in at least as much as it the natural consequences go. For instance, regardless of whether God does something drastic to discipline our nation for allowing homosexual marriage, there will still be the natural consequences that go along with that kind of culture. As we live here, whether the sins be ours, we will suffer the result of those sins, and in this example, more breakdown of the culture and the family, etc.

Take abortion. Even if God doesn't decide to "smote" our nation, there are natural consequences that result from a nation condoning murder. One such consequence is a loss of a significant chunk of a whole generation. We all suffer from that. Another is the lessening of the value of human life, policy or culture-wise. We all suffer from that.

Whether we vote or act in a way to stop these national sins, we'll still suffer some of the consequences. But we will not personally suffer the personal natural consequences that come with aborting our own child unless we do abort our own child. (For example, we will not have the guilt or depression or possible infertility that may result in abortion, which are all natural results from that sin.) And I believe we will not be judged for sins that we do not commit, so even the beyond "natural" consequences, ie: God's specific wrath, I believe we will be spared.

Please forgive me and correct me if I've made up unbiblical principles: natural consequences and specific wrath. I feel like these line up with scripture, but I may certainly be wrong!!

 

[toddpedlar]

I hear many Christians say the judgment of God is upon America, this may or not be the case, I am not privy to the counsels of the Godhead, my question is this:If this were the case, what of God's True Covenant people? In the US many Christians voted against the conscience and principles. Many did not, so does Our Lord make a distinction between His own and the unsaved? If so, how would application be made in regard to a Nation? Some might read this and think it mere speculation to which I say, Holy-Writ tells us we are NOT appointed to wrath. Say God wanted to Judge on the growing acceptance of "Gay-Marriage", does He in His mercy mark those of us who oppose such things? If I do EVERYTHING I legally can in this Democracy to oppose it, pray for revival, pray for the eyes of even less than great leaders to be opened and am still judged for the same, it bring into question, the Mercy of God and His Grace for His people. (Forgive me if this is not in the correct forum! I was not sure where it went.)

[bible]Hebrews 12:5-7[/bible]

So your answer is I would be Judged JUST like those who perform and support a "Gay" marriage despite the fact I find it an abomination, could that verse be out of context here my friend?

I don't think it's being taken out of context at all.

Also... chastisement is NOT the same as judgment.

 

[Jon Lake]

[bible]Hebrews 12:5-7[/bible]

So your answer is I would be Judged JUST like those who perform and support a "Gay" marriage despite the fact I find it an abomination, could that verse be out of context here my friend?

I don't think it's being taken out of context at all.

Also... chastisement is NOT the same as judgment.

What would I be under chastisement for, it make no sense, it lacks mercy, if I do not support the general wickedness around me why would God treat me as though I did. AGAIN: By your argument my Brother, Christians might as well support gay marriage and abortion....you think we are to be punished for it in any event. I truly hope that is not where your argument is leading this. Blessings.

 

[toddpedlar]

Also... chastisement is NOT the same as judgment.

What would I be under chastisement for, it make no sense, it lacks mercy, if I do not support the general wickedness around me why would God treat me as though I did. AGAIN: By your argument my Brother, Christians might as well support gay marriage and abortion....you think we are to be punished for it in any event. I truly hope that is not where your argument is leading this. Blessings.

That's a crazy extension of my words. Why would you propose that Christians should support unBiblical ideas?

The church can be chastised for things it has been silent about. The fact that you are part of the church, and thus would be chastised along with her should not disturb you as it does - unless, of course, you think that you must personally "earn" every bad situation that comes upon you by being personally disobedient. Is that what you think? Are bad things never supposed to happen to "good" people?

 

[smhbbag]

What would I be under chastisement for, it make no sense, it lacks mercy, if I do not support the general wickedness around me why would God treat me as though I did. AGAIN: By your argument my Brother, Christians might as well support gay marriage and abortion....you think we are to be punished for it in any event. I truly hope that is not where your argument is leading this. Blessings.

You were born sinful and under the heavy hand of the wrath of God. Yet, you did not sin alongside Adam. Is God unmerciful or unjust to have had His bow aimed at you for being born in Adam? No, because Adam was the federal head of the human race.

Headship and federal representation is a part of nearly every aspect of human life, including in this negative sense. The sin of a husband will bring discipline and consequences that affect the wife and children, sometimes even moreso than the man himself. The same can, and does, occur within churches due to behavior of individual leaders, while consequences are also upon the flock. A nation may be judged for its sin by God through a foreign invasion or terrorist attack, and genuinely peaceloving, merciful people who did not incite that attack may die as part of God's decree.

This can all be very difficult because of our sinful, fleshly, (dare I say American and democratic?) worldviews.

But I caution you against rejecting these realities, or believing them unjust or unmerciful by God.

For just as in Adam all die, just as families suffer for fathers' mistakes, just as congregations and peoples suffer for the errors of pastors and statesmen, just as peaceful individuals die in attacks motivated by an evil not done by them.....so in Christ we believers all have life by His merit.

 

[Jon Lake]

What would I be under chastisement for, it make no sense, it lacks mercy, if I do not support the general wickedness around me why would God treat me as though I did. AGAIN: By your argument my Brother, Christians might as well support gay marriage and abortion....you think we are to be punished for it in any event. I truly hope that is not where your argument is leading this. Blessings.

You were born sinful and under the heavy hand of the wrath of God. Yet, you did not sin alongside Adam. Is God unmerciful or unjust to have had His bow aimed at you for being born in Adam? No, because Adam was the federal head of the human race.

Headship and federal representation is a part of nearly every aspect of human life, including in this negative sense. The sin of a husband will bring discipline and consequences that affect the wife and children, sometimes even moreso than the man himself. The same can, and does, occur within churches due to behavior of individual leaders, while consequences are also upon the flock. A nation may be judged for its sin by God through a foreign invasion or terrorist attack, and genuinely peaceloving, merciful people who did not incite that attack may die as part of God's decree.

This can all be very difficult because of our sinful, fleshly, (dare I say American and democratic?) worldviews.

But I caution you against rejecting these realities, or believing them unjust or unmerciful by God.

For just as in Adam all die, just as families suffer for fathers' mistakes, just as congregations and peoples suffer for the errors of pastors and statesmen, just as peaceful individuals die in attacks motivated by an evil not done by them.....so in Christ we believers all have life.

Very good, but I am under the second Adam. Further think about Abraham begging the Lord to spare Sodom if he could find such a number of righteous people there, God said he would, IF he could find them, SO, if we are under a greater Blessing than Abraham, how much more should we plead the blood of Christ, and the love and mercy that flows from it???

-----Added 12/3/2008 at 02:06:44 EST-----

Also... chastisement is NOT the same as judgment.

What would I be under chastisement for, it make no sense, it lacks mercy, if I do not support the general wickedness around me why would God treat me as though I did. AGAIN: By your argument my Brother, Christians might as well support gay marriage and abortion....you think we are to be punished for it in any event. I truly hope that is not where your argument is leading this. Blessings.

That's a crazy extension of my words. Why would you propose that Christians should support unBiblical ideas?

The church can be chastised for things it has been silent about. The fact that you are part of the church, and thus would be chastised along with her should not disturb you as it does - unless, of course, you think that you must personally "earn" every bad situation that comes upon you by being personally disobedient. Is that what you think? Are bad things never supposed to happen to "good" people?

Brother, I do NOT believe that. It IS where YOUR argument leads, a Christian Fatalism.

 

[smhbbag]

Very good, but I am under the second Adam. Further think about Abraham begging the Lord to spare Sodom if he could find such a number of righteous people there, God said he would, IF he could find them, SO, if we are under a greater Blessing than Abraham, how much more should we plead the blood of Christ, and the love and mercy that flows from it???

Because God proposed such a 'deal' in Sodom does not obligate Him to act that way in every case.

Besides, you and I can already say "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ." (Eph. 1:3)

God has not promised physical prosperity or protection as a blessing of being in Christ. In fact, quite the opposite. To plead to God that we are owed protection from the evil of others because of Christ's work is to misunderstand the atonement entirely.

Again, if our blessing being greater than Abraham's is in any way relevant, should wives plead with God that they ought not be subject to the consequences of their husbands' sin? I hope you agree that is ridiculous. On a national scale, the issue is the same.

We pray for mercy upon ourselves and the church, certainly, but we must not make the grave error of presuming it. I think you would have great difficulty addressing other lines of thought consistent with your objection. If our blessing is greater than Abraham's, and we can plead the blood of Christ, (and if these are meaningful in the sense you use them) how can I not then claim His blessings must also include riches and earthly glory?

 

[toddpedlar]

What would I be under chastisement for, it make no sense, it lacks mercy, if I do not support the general wickedness around me why would God treat me as though I did. AGAIN: By your argument my Brother, Christians might as well support gay marriage and abortion....you think we are to be punished for it in any event. I truly hope that is not where your argument is leading this. Blessings.

That's a crazy extension of my words. Why would you propose that Christians should support unBiblical ideas?

The church can be chastised for things it has been silent about. The fact that you are part of the church, and thus would be chastised along with her should not disturb you as it does - unless, of course, you think that you must personally "earn" every bad situation that comes upon you by being personally disobedient. Is that what you think? Are bad things never supposed to happen to "good" people?

Brother, I do NOT believe that. It IS where YOUR argument leads, a Christian Fatalism.

What? I am VERY confused by what you just wrote. In what have I asserted any kind of Christian Fatalism?

Jon - in all seriousness - do you believe that it is improper of God to give hard times to people that have nothing to do with their own personal sin?

 

[Wannabee]

The use of Hebrews 12 here is confusing. This passage focuses on individual discipline from a loving Father. If you are a child of God and rebel, then He will chastise/discipline you because He loves you and moves in your life to restore your relationship with Him. However, if He does not discipline you then the fact that you are a bastard is proven in that you have no father to restore your relationship. In such a case Hebrews 6 applies and it becomes impossible for you to be restored. God will not let His children persist in disobedience. However, He allows the unregenerate to rebel and pursue the lusts of the world to the end of their days, to eventually face His wrath. Because of this we must pursue faithfulness with renewed vigor (vv 12ff).

Nations have no souls. God may judge a nation as He sees fit, based on her policy, actions or simply because the people have unclean lips. That is His prerogative. They are tools in His hands. Babylon is perhaps one of the best examples. Ancient Greece is as well, for God used them to Hellenize the eastern Meditteranian. Rome was used to build roads for quick transport throughout the known/modern world. None of these were used because they were righteous. It was clear that the Chaldeans were a people less righteous than the Jews, yet they were God's instrument in His destruction of Judah. The Assyrians were a horrible people, though they enjoyed a time of God's grace (Jonah - early 700s), they soon forgot the repentance of their fathers and became even more ruthless under Tiglath Pileser than they were under Shalmanezer III. Shalmanezer made vassal states out of those who failed (Jehu bowed to Shalmanezer), but Tiglath took the people from Israel and scattered them abroad in order to destroy their ethnical ties. As a side note, this is one of the reasons Uzziah's death was so discouraging - He had held the Assyrians off for many years with his strength in leadership. God shows over and over again that He will use and judge nations as He sees fit (the minor prophets repeat this many times).

Furthermore, it is apparent from Scripture that the judgment of the lost is left to the Lord, and to be left alone by His people. However, the church is to judge her own according to the dictates of God's Word (1 Cor 5:12-13).

Jessica's comments are excellent. Even though we are redeemed, this does not mean that we don't deserve the repercussions of sin. Anything less is still grace, and must not be taken for granted. God calls us to personal faithfulness first. We stand before Him in light of our obedience to two great commandments. This faithfulness will affect our home and our church, and it should affect our community and our nation. However, we are not held accountable and judged by the actions of others (with some slight exception in elders - Heb 13:17); though, as Jessica stated, we may be among those who reap the repurcussions of their sin, and so must also endure the trials that come upon man as a result of being given over to His reprobate mind (Rom 1).

 

[toddpedlar]

The use of Hebrews 12 here is confusing. This passage focuses on individual discipline from a loving Father. If you are a child of God and rebel, then He will chastise/discipline you because He loves you and moves in your life to restore your relationship with Him. However, if He does not discipline you then the fact that you are a bastard is proven in that you have no father to restore your relationship. In such a case Hebrews 6 applies and it becomes impossible for you to be restored. God will not let His children persist in disobedience. However, He allows the unregenerate to rebel and pursue the lusts of the world to the end of their days, to eventually face His wrath. Because of this we must pursue faithfulness with renewed vigor (vv 12ff).

I agree with you that it's not directly applicable... I was only using that reference to steer the discussion to the difference between chastisement and judgment. That wasn't to be the final goal (in my view) of the direction I thought the discussion ought to go. The discussion, though, is going in a different direction, now - the questions are more of what, if anything, true believers in the church can suffer evil for things they are not personally involved in. Obviously I think they can and do and have throughout history; and this is the crux of the matter.

 

[he beholds]

Here's a passage from Tertullian on God's patience.
I think this passage explains beautifully how very patient God is with the just and unjust alike.

Chapter II.—God Himself an Example of Patience.

To us no human affectation of canine equanimity, modelled by insensibility, furnishes the warrant for exercising patience; but the divine arrangement of a living and celestial discipline, holding up before us God Himself in the very first place as an example of patience; who scatters equally over just and unjust the bloom of this light; who suffers the good offices of the seasons, the services of the elements, the tributes of entire nature, to accrue at once to worthy and unworthy; bearing with the most ungrateful nations, adoring as they do the toys of the arts and the works of their own hands, persecuting His Name together with His family; bearing with luxury, avarice, iniquity, malignity, waxing insolent daily: so that by His own patience He disparages Himself; for the cause why many believe not in the Lord is that they are so long without knowing that He is wroth with the world.

 

[Jon Lake]

That's a crazy extension of my words. Why would you propose that Christians should support unBiblical ideas?

The church can be chastised for things it has been silent about. The fact that you are part of the church, and thus would be chastised along with her should not disturb you as it does - unless, of course, you think that you must personally "earn" every bad situation that comes upon you by being personally disobedient. Is that what you think? Are bad things never supposed to happen to "good" people?

Brother, I do NOT believe that. It IS where YOUR argument leads, a Christian Fatalism.

What? I am VERY confused by what you just wrote. In what have I asserted any kind of Christian Fatalism?

Jon - in all seriousness - do you believe that it is improper of God to give hard times to people that have nothing to do with their own personal sin?

My friend, I might not have expressed my question very well, for this accept my apology. I am not talking about a "charismatic" view, life gives us all "bumps" saved and unsaved. I wish to go back to my original question and perhaps be more clear. What I was asking was this (Lord help me ask this question properly),:If a nation is wicked, BUT it has a large number of true and faithful Christians who have done ALL they could without breaking the law of God or the law of the land and the nation remains on a wicked course, and God wants to bring judgment, does He in His Divine Love and Mercy take into account the good, true and faithful Saints in that land? Another even more simple way of asking is this: You are a faithful servant of Christ Jesus, your neighbor is a drunk, a wife-beater and despises everything about God. The question is ,does God (if he brings a judgment) view you EXACTLY as the wicked neighbor, or does he take into account that you are one of his and in His Mercy "approach" you as a person of the Covenant differently? Blessings.

 

[Prufrock]

Another even more simple way of asking is this: You are a faithful servant of Christ Jesus, your neighbor is a drunk, a wife-beater and despises everything about God. The question is ,does God (if he brings a judgment) view you EXACTLY as the wicked neighbor, or does he take into account that you are one of his and in His Mercy "approach" you as a person of the Covenant differently? Blessings.

I think this is a complete red-herring that sidesteps the issue. The simply fact is, the righteous can/have/do/will still suffer in this world with the wicked.

-----Added 12/3/2008 at 04:07:38 EST-----

Why does Jesus warn his faithful to flee Jerusalem in the coming destruction? Not because they are those on account of whom judgment is coming; but judgment nevertheless is coming, and if they are there, so shall they be a part of it.

 

[Jon Lake]

Another even more simple way of asking is this: You are a faithful servant of Christ Jesus, your neighbor is a drunk, a wife-beater and despises everything about God. The question is ,does God (if he brings a judgment) view you EXACTLY as the wicked neighbor, or does he take into account that you are one of his and in His Mercy "approach" you as a person of the Covenant differently? Blessings.

I think this is a complete red-herring that sidesteps the issue. The simply fact is, the righteous can/have/do/will still suffer in this world with the wicked.

-----Added 12/3/2008 at 04:07:38 EST-----

Why does Jesus warn his faithful to flee Jerusalem in the coming destruction? Not because they are those on account of whom judgment is coming; but judgment nevertheless is coming, and if they are there, so shall they be a part of it.

Sorry you feel it is a red herring my Friend, I DID admit Christians would take bruises in a fallen world! This is not the subject I have in focus, I am dealing with God's judgment and how Mercy comes into play when dealing with His Blood-Bought own. I am not even talking about the everyday trials and temptations all Christians endure. Blessings.

 

[Prufrock]

Another even more simple way of asking is this: You are a faithful servant of Christ Jesus, your neighbor is a drunk, a wife-beater and despises everything about God. The question is ,does God (if he brings a judgment) view you EXACTLY as the wicked neighbor, or does he take into account that you are one of his and in His Mercy "approach" you as a person of the Covenant differently? Blessings.

I think this is a complete red-herring that sidesteps the issue. The simply fact is, the righteous can/have/do/will still suffer in this world with the wicked.

-----Added 12/3/2008 at 04:07:38 EST-----

Why does Jesus warn his faithful to flee Jerusalem in the coming destruction? Not because they are those on account of whom judgment is coming; but judgment nevertheless is coming, and if they are there, so shall they be a part of it.

Sorry you feel it is a red herring my Friend, I DID admit Christians would take bruises in a fallen world! This is not the subject I have in focus, I am dealing with God's judgment and how Mercy comes into play when dealing with His Blood-Bought own. I am not even talking about the everyday trials and temptations all Christians endure. Blessings.

Nor am I. But we do suffer as a result of God's judgment upon the wicked. We are not being judged as they are; but we can suffer with them in their judgments frequently. God looks upon us tenderly and in mercy when it happens to his people, but he can still pour his wrath out on a people whether there are righteous mixed in with them or not. He can choose to spare them, or not.

-----Added 12/3/2008 at 04:23:08 EST-----

In other words, if America were to be "judged" as a nation, you could still indeed suffer with the rest of the nation: this does not mean that God holds wrath against you in particular -- indeed, the very opposite. The fact that we suffer when those around us are judged does not mean that we ourselves are under the wrath of God; it simply means we must suffer with them, and will have the grace and strength of our loving God to carry us through it.

 

[Prufrock]

The fact that we suffer when those around us are judged does not mean that we ourselves are under the wrath of God; it simply means we must suffer with them, and will have the grace and strength of our loving God to carry us through it.

And not only carry us through it, but make all of it for our good a la Rom. 8:28, James 1, etc.

Amen.

 

[Hippo]

I do believe that there is a certain vanity in that poweful nations feel themselves to be a discrete part of God's plan. Being English I can fully appreciate these thoughts, however as England has retreated into its well deserved mediocrity some of these thoughts do look somewhat different in the perspective of history.

God does not keep a set of scales and judge nations according to a standard that they may pass and fail according to which laws it passes. We all deserve to be destroyed without warning or further thought by God, it is only Christs rightiousness that protects us.

Our nations will pass into dust, they have no permenancy or eternal significance in the plan of redemption.

Our good deeds do not protect us in any way we, must however have faith that whatever happens to us on earth it is for God's glory.

 

[ChristianHedonist]

If God's judgment of our nation resulted in trials and persecutions for Christians, God would not be judging His elect, He would be blessing us. The same action God takes against our country could be both judgment on the reprobate and blessing for the elect. For, as the Bible teaches, we are blessed when we are persecuted, when we face trials of many kinds, when we suffer for righteousness' sake, etc.

 

[toddpedlar]

My friend, I might not have expressed my question very well, for this accept my apology. I am not talking about a "charismatic" view, life gives us all "bumps" saved and unsaved. I wish to go back to my original question and perhaps be more clear. What I was asking was this (Lord help me ask this question properly),:If a nation is wicked, BUT it has a large number of true and faithful Christians who have done ALL they could without breaking the law of God or the law of the land and the nation remains on a wicked course, and God wants to bring judgment, does He in His Divine Love and Mercy take into account the good, true and faithful Saints in that land? Another even more simple way of asking is this: You are a faithful servant of Christ Jesus, your neighbor is a drunk, a wife-beater and despises everything about God. The question is ,does God (if he brings a judgment) view you EXACTLY as the wicked neighbor, or does he take into account that you are one of his and in His Mercy "approach" you as a person of the Covenant differently? Blessings.

Well, God certainly has different purposes for the situations he puts people into in common. You can imagine this in the case, let's say, of a pair of people driving in one car, one who is elect and God's own, and one who is not. They die in a crash. The one is being brought into glory, while the other is being sent to hell. Same event, different ends. The same is true for judgment of a nation - God will send the same events to elect and non-elect alike. His 'accounting', to use your choice of words, is in view of the ends he has in mind for the people who are undergoing the same events.

Will we face events in our lives that are hard providences if God acts in wrath upon America? You bet. Will they be because God has forsaken us? Absolutely not. Will they be hard on us? You bet. Will God give us grace in them? Absolutely. Many, many believing Jews were carted off to Babylon. Hard providence? Yes. Suffering of God's elect? Yes. All for His glory and their good? Yes. Hard to understand? Indeed, but it is what the Bible teaches, and our duty in it, if it should come, is to continue serving God.