Gas Prices
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VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
Washington Post, 9/1/05, reports one gas station in Atlanta is at $5.87.
Puritanhead
Puritan Board Professor
I have to ask? Why do they continue this 9/10 cent charade on the end of the posted prices...
crhoades
Puritan Board Graduate
To torment you!
http://www.users.qwest.net/~taaaz/AZgas.htmlhttp://www.users.qwest.net/~taaaz/AZgas.htmlScroll down into the intro - they discuss it here. Yes...I answer rhetorical questions with website links...
crhoades
Puritan Board Graduate
http://www.cato.org/research/articles/vandoren-030401.html
Let ´Em Gouge: A Defense of Price Gouging
by Jerry Taylor & Peter VanDoren
April 1, 2003
Jerry Taylor is director of natural resource studies at the Cato Institute, and Peter VanDoren is editor of Regulation, the Cato Review of Business and Government.
Gasoline prices have gone up from a national average of $1.22 a year ago to a startling $1.71 today. The industry says it's supply and demand. Consumer activists say it's gouging. Who's right? Well, both are.
The supply and demand explanation is straightforward. On top of the Venezuelan labor strike and war jitters in the Middle East, the winter in the northeast "” a region that relies heavily on heating oil "” has been unusually cold. Refineries have accordingly been making heating oil rather than gasoline, so gasoline supplies are relatively scarce. Scarce gasoline = rising prices.
But what constitutes price gouging? To many, "gouging" is selling something at the highest level that the market will bear regardless of production costs. By that definition, we are indeed being gouged at the pump. Gasoline prices have risen faster than the price of crude oil.
But pricing goods and services at the highest level that the market will bear is what everyone in a capitalist economy does every day. Moreover, it happens regardless of whether prices are rising or falling. Oil companies were trying just as hard to charge what the market would bear in December 2001 when gasoline was $1.13 a gallon as they are now. Given present scarcities, however, the market can bear a higher price today than yesterday.
Why the constant government investigations only when prices are rising? Because to many, pricing significantly above cost is immoral and politicians and the press are in the business of finding immoral dragons to slay.
What has really set the moralizers off this time is the revelation that the gouging is often both tightly targeted and coldly calculated. The industry calls it "zone pricing." Essentially, oil companies examine small geographic areas, consider how much retail competition exists, estimate the willingness of motorists to look elsewhere for gasoline, and price accordingly. Consumer activists are aghast that oil companies would go so far to extract every penny they can out of a gallon of gas.
Price discounting, however, clearly benefits the consumers who receive the discounts. But how about those consumers who pay prices higher than the discount? Economists of all stripes who've studied the effect of differential pricing based on the willingness of consumers to search for lower prices have concluded that consumers overall are likely to benefit if sales are higher with price discrimination than without it. That's because those consumers less sensitive to prices pay more of the fixed costs of doing business.
Regardless, most people view the practice of zone pricing in gasoline markets as unfairly taking advantage of consumers. Yet many of those same people "” who will curse a blue streak if you put them in front of a camera and ask them about "Big Oil" "” are as we speak putting their houses on the market and enthusiastically gouging the living daylights out of anyone looking for a new home. And what's more, they're zone pricing! Surprisingly, however, no one ever rages against real estate price gouging. In fact, the opposite is the case. Business reporters gush about returns and politicians pledge to do whatever it takes to keep the real estate bubble afloat.
So is price gouging okay if you're the gouger but not the gougee? It would appear so. But in reality, price gouging "” like spinach "” may be unappealing at first bite but it's good for everyone in the long run. Gougers are sending an important signal to market actors that something is scarce and that profits are available to those who produce or sell that something. Gouging thus sets off an economic chain reaction that ultimately remedies the shortages that led to the gouging in the first place. Without such signals, we'd never know how to efficiently invest our resources. Moreover, we'd have no idea what to conserve. It's no exaggeration to state that, without such price signals, our economy would look like Cuba's.
There's a catch, however. If the government artificially restricts supply, those price signals will fall on deaf ears. Local zoning ordinances, for instance, often prevent real estate developers from answering the call from desperate home-buyers. They also frequently prevent new service stations from popping up to challenge the local micro-monopoly.
Blame not the price gouger. Blame the government that won't let the price gouger do his job.
This article originally appeared on NRO on April 1, 2003.
Let ´Em Gouge: A Defense of Price Gouging
by Jerry Taylor & Peter VanDoren
April 1, 2003
Jerry Taylor is director of natural resource studies at the Cato Institute, and Peter VanDoren is editor of Regulation, the Cato Review of Business and Government.
Gasoline prices have gone up from a national average of $1.22 a year ago to a startling $1.71 today. The industry says it's supply and demand. Consumer activists say it's gouging. Who's right? Well, both are.
The supply and demand explanation is straightforward. On top of the Venezuelan labor strike and war jitters in the Middle East, the winter in the northeast "” a region that relies heavily on heating oil "” has been unusually cold. Refineries have accordingly been making heating oil rather than gasoline, so gasoline supplies are relatively scarce. Scarce gasoline = rising prices.
But what constitutes price gouging? To many, "gouging" is selling something at the highest level that the market will bear regardless of production costs. By that definition, we are indeed being gouged at the pump. Gasoline prices have risen faster than the price of crude oil.
But pricing goods and services at the highest level that the market will bear is what everyone in a capitalist economy does every day. Moreover, it happens regardless of whether prices are rising or falling. Oil companies were trying just as hard to charge what the market would bear in December 2001 when gasoline was $1.13 a gallon as they are now. Given present scarcities, however, the market can bear a higher price today than yesterday.
Why the constant government investigations only when prices are rising? Because to many, pricing significantly above cost is immoral and politicians and the press are in the business of finding immoral dragons to slay.
What has really set the moralizers off this time is the revelation that the gouging is often both tightly targeted and coldly calculated. The industry calls it "zone pricing." Essentially, oil companies examine small geographic areas, consider how much retail competition exists, estimate the willingness of motorists to look elsewhere for gasoline, and price accordingly. Consumer activists are aghast that oil companies would go so far to extract every penny they can out of a gallon of gas.
Price discounting, however, clearly benefits the consumers who receive the discounts. But how about those consumers who pay prices higher than the discount? Economists of all stripes who've studied the effect of differential pricing based on the willingness of consumers to search for lower prices have concluded that consumers overall are likely to benefit if sales are higher with price discrimination than without it. That's because those consumers less sensitive to prices pay more of the fixed costs of doing business.
Regardless, most people view the practice of zone pricing in gasoline markets as unfairly taking advantage of consumers. Yet many of those same people "” who will curse a blue streak if you put them in front of a camera and ask them about "Big Oil" "” are as we speak putting their houses on the market and enthusiastically gouging the living daylights out of anyone looking for a new home. And what's more, they're zone pricing! Surprisingly, however, no one ever rages against real estate price gouging. In fact, the opposite is the case. Business reporters gush about returns and politicians pledge to do whatever it takes to keep the real estate bubble afloat.
So is price gouging okay if you're the gouger but not the gougee? It would appear so. But in reality, price gouging "” like spinach "” may be unappealing at first bite but it's good for everyone in the long run. Gougers are sending an important signal to market actors that something is scarce and that profits are available to those who produce or sell that something. Gouging thus sets off an economic chain reaction that ultimately remedies the shortages that led to the gouging in the first place. Without such signals, we'd never know how to efficiently invest our resources. Moreover, we'd have no idea what to conserve. It's no exaggeration to state that, without such price signals, our economy would look like Cuba's.
There's a catch, however. If the government artificially restricts supply, those price signals will fall on deaf ears. Local zoning ordinances, for instance, often prevent real estate developers from answering the call from desperate home-buyers. They also frequently prevent new service stations from popping up to challenge the local micro-monopoly.
Blame not the price gouger. Blame the government that won't let the price gouger do his job.
This article originally appeared on NRO on April 1, 2003.
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
Bladestunner316
Puritan Board Doctor
$2.93
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
My gas station on 8/26/05 -- $2.49
My gas station on 9/2/05 -- $3.09
My gas station on 9/2/05 -- $3.09
Bladestunner316
Puritan Board Doctor
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
Originally posted by poimen
A woman in an Islamic army?
[Edited on 9-3-2005 by poimen]
They don't mind using female suicide bombers...
Bladestunner316
Puritan Board Doctor
Bladestunner316
Puritan Board Doctor
apparantly according to another forum I vist there is a shortage of gas begingin in the portland,or area. guess this was hear on kgw. I cant confirm this though it is speculated that gas from the pnw is being diverted to the SE. Not sure how much is being diverted.
Anyone from oregon please help me fill in the gaps.
Also their was rumour that gas would be shut down at 4pm in baltimore that is false but it created a gas panic which can cause shortages.
Never the less If you can stock up on gas do so. It can only help you.
Blade
Anyone from oregon please help me fill in the gaps.
Also their was rumour that gas would be shut down at 4pm in baltimore that is false but it created a gas panic which can cause shortages.
Never the less If you can stock up on gas do so. It can only help you.
Blade
ChristianTrader
Puritan Board Graduate
I would love to see a Scriptural Firefight over this issue.
Its a two part question.
1)The morality of price "gouging" however one wants to define it. (And defining it is part of the problem of complaining over it.)
2)The morality of outlawing it. (For not all sins are crimes)
[Edited on 9-3-2005 by ChristianTrader]
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
To put forth a definition, see here (for starters, at least).
I see it as an Eighth Commandment issue vis-a-vis Lev. 25.14-17; Prov. 20.14 and 22.16.
As to whether the civil magistrate should enforce price-gouging laws, as much as I am inclined towards a completely free market (I am sympathetic towards libertarian economic principles but I am not a libertarian), given that the magistrate is to enforce the Decalogue, and the Puritan precedent that I have cited, and given that price-gouging is what occurs in calamitous situations where people tend to take advantage of others' extremities, I tend see price-gouging laws as Biblical, much as I would see laws against oppressive usury as Biblical.
See Thomas Ridgeley on the Eighth Commandment and Richard Steele's The Religious Tradesman, Chapter V, Of Justice. I wonder what Richard Baxter has to say on this subject?
I know that the example of Jacob and Esau is cited as an example of price gouging on Jacob's part. I know that the example of Joseph is cited in favor of the concept of price gouging.
There is much to consider here, I'm sure.
[Edited on 9-3-2005 by VirginiaHuguenot]
blhowes
Puritan Board Professor
Today, I'm forced to do something against my better judgment. Last night, we ran some errands, and driving home I let the gas needle go just about as low as it can go. We're running on fumes and I'll have to go today to fill up the tank. I can't believe I'll be paying around $3.50 per gallon for gas!!!
$3.50 for one gallon of regular gas? As bad as that is, I'm sure the price hasn't stabilized yet and it won't be long before it'll be $4.50 or higher. I may just have to see if I can find those threads that talk about why we shouldn't drill up in Alaska. If its because Mr. Walrus and Mrs. Penguin are concerned about us clearing out a little bit of their land or about some nearly-extinct animal that most have never heard about anyway, well it may be time for them to buy their own cars, fill them up with gas, and move on to greener (or whiter) pastors, I mean pastures.
$3.50 per gallon!
[Edited on 9-3-2005 by blhowes]
$3.50 for one gallon of regular gas? As bad as that is, I'm sure the price hasn't stabilized yet and it won't be long before it'll be $4.50 or higher. I may just have to see if I can find those threads that talk about why we shouldn't drill up in Alaska. If its because Mr. Walrus and Mrs. Penguin are concerned about us clearing out a little bit of their land or about some nearly-extinct animal that most have never heard about anyway, well it may be time for them to buy their own cars, fill them up with gas, and move on to greener (or whiter) pastors, I mean pastures.
$3.50 per gallon!
[Edited on 9-3-2005 by blhowes]
Poimen
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Originally posted by blhowes
Today, I'm forced to do something against my better judgment. Last night, we ran some errands, and driving home I let the gas needle go just about as low as it can go. We're running on fumes and I'll have to go today to fill up the tank. I can't believe I'll be paying around $3.50 per gallon for gas!!!
$3.50 for one gallon of regular gas? As bad as that is, I'm sure the price hasn't stabilized yet and it won't be long before it'll be $4.50 or higher. I may just have to see if I can find those threads that talk about why we shouldn't drill up in Alaska. If its because Mr. Walrus and Mrs. Penguin are concerned about us clearing out a little bit of their land or about some nearly-extinct animal that most have never heard about anyway, well it may be time for them to buy their own cars, fill them up with gas, and move on to greener (or whiter) pastors, I mean pastures.
$3.50 per gallon!
[Edited on 9-3-2005 by blhowes]
No kidding.
Drill, drill, drill!
Texas Aggie
Puritan Board Freshman
It is not necessarily a mater of drilling to obtain the oil.... it a matter of refining the resource. Blame the environmental nut-jobs for the strict governmental controls placed on the energy corporations and the fact that nobody now wants a refinery near them (although they want all the benefits). Don´t forget, environmental controls cost $$$$$.
After all who wants a dog turd in their backyard? California has had such staunch opposition to refineries that they haven't had a new one since 1977.
After all who wants a dog turd in their backyard? California has had such staunch opposition to refineries that they haven't had a new one since 1977.
Poimen
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Either way, they should do it soon. If we want to change to a cleaner source of energy for our vehicles we will need a large supply of oil to start. For if we can stop sucking off the ME teat we might have more time, money and resources to, say, pursue hydrogen fuel cells or the like.
Bladestunner316
Puritan Board Doctor
So you would rather put more species at risk. The environmeent at risk. Just to have cheaper gas. If your so bummed about environmental regulations why dont you be the first to sign up for an oil drill in your back yard. Oh yeah you wouldnt because you wouldnt want your children to play around that. You wouldnt want to breath it in. Dont blame a small crowd of non-christians who actually take a stand for the environment for your high gas cost. At least they care about the environment unlike most christians today. albeit they can be a bit excentric. But at least they care. Now if you would actually get on the governments case about producing alternatives instead of ooil we may have some progress. But since republicans need the christian vote and like democrats have their hands in big oil they tell you want they want you to hear and christians just soak it in because they want a christian candidate in office. See the ones who are at blame are the ones we pay taxes too.
Blade
Blade
Texas Aggie
Puritan Board Freshman
Research and development of cleaner more efficient energy sources is not a desire of the American public. Like I mentioned before, Texas was kneed deep in fusion technology when the Clinton administration axed the program and wasted literally millions of dollars on research and construction of the atom smasher south of the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex.
We have huge supplies of oil (even already refined oil) here in the United States. These are reserved for those "special times" of need (war, natural disasters and national security concerns). The idea is to keep buying the ME oil and retain as much of the resource for our own reserve.
The oil is out there.... and there is plenty of it for use. True, there are OPEC price gougers, but hey... it is their oil and they can sell it for what ever they want as long as there is a market for their price. Wait until 4.5 billion Chinese want more of the resource (and you think we are paying high prices now).
Again, the idea is to store up our oil and use the rest of the worlds´. The ME teat is very full and ready to be drained. Research and development of alternative fuels is not the priority of the average tax payer and majority of voters in the United States.
We have huge supplies of oil (even already refined oil) here in the United States. These are reserved for those "special times" of need (war, natural disasters and national security concerns). The idea is to keep buying the ME oil and retain as much of the resource for our own reserve.
The oil is out there.... and there is plenty of it for use. True, there are OPEC price gougers, but hey... it is their oil and they can sell it for what ever they want as long as there is a market for their price. Wait until 4.5 billion Chinese want more of the resource (and you think we are paying high prices now).
Again, the idea is to store up our oil and use the rest of the worlds´. The ME teat is very full and ready to be drained. Research and development of alternative fuels is not the priority of the average tax payer and majority of voters in the United States.
Bladestunner316
Puritan Board Doctor
Yeah but look at how succesfull we are at stealing Iraqs oil???
Oh there is that silly commandment STEAL. Gosh why didnt God think about that when we need oil.
Blade
Oh there is that silly commandment STEAL. Gosh why didnt God think about that when we need oil.
Blade
Texas Aggie
Puritan Board Freshman
There is no stealing of oil Blade. Give it up. We occupy the country.... it belongs to the people of the United States until Iraq is fully returned to the Iraqi people (then they can decide what to do with it).
Your concept of occupation is seriously construed to the far left. If we wanted to, Iraq could technically become part of the United States forever. I suppose you think we have stolen land from the Japanese and Germans since we still have U.S. bases from our WWII occupation. Your Christian ideology mixed with Marxist comments is comical.
Your concept of occupation is seriously construed to the far left. If we wanted to, Iraq could technically become part of the United States forever. I suppose you think we have stolen land from the Japanese and Germans since we still have U.S. bases from our WWII occupation. Your Christian ideology mixed with Marxist comments is comical.
Originally posted by Bladestunner316
Yeah but look at how succesfull we are at stealing Iraqs oil???
Oh there is that silly commandment STEAL. Gosh why didnt God think about that when we need oil.
Blade
If we treated Iraq the way every other nation that has ever existed treated a vanquished foe, you would have an Iraqi gardner and $0.75 per gallon gas. Faluljah would cease to exist - everyone would be dead.
Bladestunner316
Puritan Board Doctor
Yeah we didnt steal it the goverment of Iraq asked us to bomb them and gave us their oil. RIGHT.
Ha ha im a marxist now too huh thats laughable.
So we steal oil by invading a soveregn nation and its ok because now we occupy the nation. That makes a whole lot of sense.
How about I invade your house and take your stuff but Ill stay there to occupy your place and just tell the cops its not stealing because I occupy the place. But if I left then it would be stealing.
Blade
Ha ha im a marxist now too huh thats laughable.
So we steal oil by invading a soveregn nation and its ok because now we occupy the nation. That makes a whole lot of sense.
How about I invade your house and take your stuff but Ill stay there to occupy your place and just tell the cops its not stealing because I occupy the place. But if I left then it would be stealing.
Blade
Bladestunner316
Puritan Board Doctor
Fred,
If we did that we would be dead to. But since you want to make the US look good in their wrong actions I wont stop you.
Oh I should be thankful to this government for not be more evil to Iraq than they allready have been.
Blade
If we did that we would be dead to. But since you want to make the US look good in their wrong actions I wont stop you.
Oh I should be thankful to this government for not be more evil to Iraq than they allready have been.
Blade
Texas Aggie
Puritan Board Freshman
If you hate the Iraq war so much Blade, at the very least, you should stop paying your federal taxes for all the bloodshed over oil.
The Ba'ath party definitely did not ask us to invade.... where would you get such an idea? Occupation entitles the oil. It is just that simple.
Occupation entitles the people of the United States to everything that country has to offer. Brute force is the determinate. Boots on the ground speak for the people of the United States. The oil belongs to us until we see fit to return home and relinquish full control of the country to the people of Iraq once we are finished killing all the jihadist. I'm sorry you see this as oppressive.
Your anti-war arguments are fashioned after Marxist tactics (also called alligator speak). Go read up on it.
Your comparison on invading my house is ridiculous. Apples and oranges yet again my friend.
The Ba'ath party definitely did not ask us to invade.... where would you get such an idea? Occupation entitles the oil. It is just that simple.
Occupation entitles the people of the United States to everything that country has to offer. Brute force is the determinate. Boots on the ground speak for the people of the United States. The oil belongs to us until we see fit to return home and relinquish full control of the country to the people of Iraq once we are finished killing all the jihadist. I'm sorry you see this as oppressive.
Your anti-war arguments are fashioned after Marxist tactics (also called alligator speak). Go read up on it.
Your comparison on invading my house is ridiculous. Apples and oranges yet again my friend.
Bladestunner316
Puritan Board Doctor
So your telling me to disobey Jesus when he said to give ceaser what is ceasers????
So its ok to to steal oil, and its ok to disobey Jesus now if I disagree with the war.
So its ok to to steal oil, and its ok to disobey Jesus now if I disagree with the war.
Bladestunner316
Puritan Board Doctor
and yet again anything you cant argue agaisnt is 'apples and oranges' or 'kool aid'.
Texas Aggie
Puritan Board Freshman
You love to say "steal oil." This is an example of a Marxist tactic. You have no grounds for your argument, yet it is a divisive tool for propaganda. There is no theft, because we occupy the country. This is the entitlement to the people of the U.S.
You are concerned with the constitutional legality of the Iraq war; therefore, you should also be concerned about the legality of the federal income tax. Especially since you are directly funding this "blood for oil" war.
Your convictions are strong; however misguided and destructive to US forces abroad. Again it is better to cast a vote than continue to support and encourage the Islamic war on the West via the lies spewing from your mouth.
You are concerned with the constitutional legality of the Iraq war; therefore, you should also be concerned about the legality of the federal income tax. Especially since you are directly funding this "blood for oil" war.
Your convictions are strong; however misguided and destructive to US forces abroad. Again it is better to cast a vote than continue to support and encourage the Islamic war on the West via the lies spewing from your mouth.
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