EP, RPW, and Eph 5:19 and Col 3:16

[lunarWood]

I should say upfront that I pose this question as an adherent to EP to fellow EP-ers.

I’ve recently been confronted about my application of the RPW to Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16. The person who confronted me raised the objection that both texts had nothing to do with public worship, but day-to-day living, and therefore it is wrong to invoke the RPW on these two texts. I think he was correct in pointing this out, but something doesn’t feel right to me. What saith ye?

 

[MarrowMan]

Let’s grant the understanding for sake of argument. If the text applies to “everyday life” how would it then exclude worship? Are we to believe that everyday life singing of psalms somehow excludes the worship setting on the Lord’s Day? That we have less freedom in everyday life than we do in public worship? And if so, how is that proved?

 

[Polanus1561]

What’s with Worship topics being posted just before sleep on the Lord’s Day ….

 

[Deleted member 6112]

I should say upfront that I pose this question as an adherent to EP to fellow EP-ers.

I’ve recently been confronted about my application of the RPW to Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16. The person who confronted me raised the objection that both texts had nothing to do with public worship, but day-to-day living, and therefore it is wrong to invoke the RPW on these two texts. I think he was correct in pointing this out, but something doesn’t feel right to me. What saith ye?

The texts refer to teaching and exhorting one another through the singing of Psalms. Does your friend go around singing Psalms to other Christians in his day-to-day life?

 

[MW]

Verse 15 says, "ye are called in one body." The reference to "one another" in v. 16 is a mutual activity connected with the united fellowship of the body of Christ.

 

[Northern Crofter]

I should say upfront that I pose this question as an adherent to EP to fellow EP-ers.

I’ve recently been confronted about my application of the RPW to Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16. The person who confronted me raised the objection that both texts had nothing to do with public worship, but day-to-day living, and therefore it is wrong to invoke the RPW on these two texts. I think he was correct in pointing this out, but something doesn’t feel right to me. What saith ye?

I agree that these texts are not dealing specifically with public worship, so I don't primarily appeal to them when explaining why I only sing inspired songs in worship.

But I do like to ask the following question when this issue is raised with these texts: if the Ephesians and Colossians texts are commands to sing inspired songs (I do believe both texts are teaching that - that the adjective "spiritual" applies to all 3 words which in turn all refer to types of inspired song in the Hebrew Scriptures) to fellow believers in day-to-day life, why would they then include manmade songs in public, corporate worship?

I believe it is the same reasoning with other aspects of worship - a setting aside of manmade verses and instruments for inspired songs in public praise; a setting aside of other foods for bread and wine for the Lord's Supper (though we have "houses to eat and to drink in" the bar is raised when we "come together therefore into one place" to eat the Lord’s Supper - see I Cor.11.20-22); a setting aside of other liquids for water for baptism.

 

[lunarWood]

What’s with Worship topics being posted just before sleep on the Lord’s Day ….

It’s been on my mind that past week. After not being able to contain it any longer, I spilled the beans here on PB. I also tend to go to bed late because of my work schedule .

 

[lunarWood]

Let’s grant the understanding for sake of argument. If the text applies to “everyday life” how would it then exclude worship? Are we to believe that everyday life singing of psalms somehow excludes the worship setting on the Lord’s Day? That we have less freedom in everyday life than we do in public worship? And if so, how is that proved?

The texts refer to teaching and exhorting one another through the singing of Psalms. Does your friend go around singing Psalms to other Christians in his day-to-day life?

I think you two put thumbs on the issue that I wasn’t able to articulate: Somehow we have less freedom in daily life than public worship on the Lord’s Day.

And to my knowledge, my friend does not go around singing Psalms to other Christians, perhaps excepting a few psalms sung by contemporary groups like the Gettys or Shane & Shane. I think his mind is at least changed after I pointed out “psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs” point to The Psalms, for daily living.

I agree that these texts are not dealing specifically with public worship, so I don't primarily appeal to them when explaining why I only sing inspired songs in worship.

What other Scriptures have you appealed to for singing the Psalms only in worship?

 

[Northern Crofter]

I should say upfront that I pose this question as an adherent to EP to fellow EP-ers.

What other Scriptures have you appealed to for singing the Psalms only in worship?

You'll have to forgive me - I am technically IP (Inspired Praise) not strictly EP, so perhaps I should probably not have responded to your OP. Although I only sing from the Psalter in family and public worship, I accept the practice of the likes of Calvin/Geneva singing other parts of Scripture. I do think the Psalter is entirely sufficient, and there is a good argument against singing other parts of Scripture, even those that were originally meant to be sung and/or are even labeled as songs, but my hermeneutic would have to allow for it.

My hermeneutic comes from the motif throughout the whole of Scripture which always requires purity in offering praise and thanksgiving to God, from Cain/Abel to Nadab/Abihu to the Passover lamb to the Mosaic ceremonial law to the teaching of Christ (John 4.23-24, for example) and the Apostles (James 3.17, for example: "But the wisdom that is from above, is first pure..."). What we offer to God must be pure - that cannot ever be said about man's words and can only and always be said about God's Word.

The question is always, why would you want to use man's words instead of God's words? I know, without doubting, that the words I sing to God from the Psalms are pleasing to God. I could never completely know or say that about non-inspired words of praise.

 

[lunarWood]

You'll have to forgive me - I am technically IP (Inspired Praise) not strictly EP, so perhaps I should probably not have responded to your OP. Although I only sing from the Psalter in family and public worship, I accept the practice of the likes of Calvin/Geneva singing other parts of Scripture. I do think the Psalter is entirely sufficient, and there is a good argument against singing other parts of Scripture, even those that were originally meant to be sung and/or are even labeled as songs, but my hermeneutic would have to allow for it.

My hermeneutic comes from the motif throughout the whole of Scripture which always requires purity in offering praise and thanksgiving to God, from Cain/Abel to Nadab/Abihu to the Passover lamb to the Mosaic ceremonial law to the teaching of Christ (John 4.23-24, for example) and the Apostles (James 3.17, for example: "But the wisdom that is from above, is first pure..."). What we offer to God must be pure - that cannot ever be said about man's words and can only and always be said about God's Word.

The question is always, why would you want to use man's words instead of God's words? I know, without doubting, that the words I sing to God from the Psalms are pleasing to God. I could never completely know or say that about non-inspired words of praise.

This is nevertheless helpful. Thank you.

 

[St. Gerdt]

For what it's worth, while not 100% to do with these two texts, the addresses from the recent FCC family conference are now available, and Rev. Rom's Friday morning address, "The Simplicity & Spirituality of Worship", is an excellent listen. (Link:

)

What strikes me from this discussion thread, with this address fresh in my mind, is the distinct spirituality of all Christian fellowship - not just worship. Even in everyday life, as demonstrated in these two texts, our communion with brothers uses the pure words of the Divine to engage spirit to spirit (soul to soul). Has there ever been anything man-made (carnal) that did not obscure, rather than illuminate, our understanding of the Divine? Thus, in all things, but especially in worship, we've been instructed to put such things away.

 

[iainduguid]

For what it's worth, while not 100% to do with these two texts, the addresses from the recent FCC family conference are now available, and Rev. Rom's Friday morning address, "The Simplicity & Spirituality of Worship", is an excellent listen. (Link:

)

What strikes me from this discussion thread, with this address fresh in my mind, is the distinct spirituality of all Christian fellowship - not just worship. Even in everyday life, as demonstrated in these two texts, our communion with brothers uses the pure words of the Divine to engage spirit to spirit (soul to soul). Has there ever been anything man-made (carnal) that did not obscure, rather than illuminate, our understanding of the Divine? Thus, in all things, but especially in worship, we've been instructed to put such things away.

Hi Sam,
This seems to overstate the EP case by equating everything of human composition with being necessarily carnal. If your statement is correct, what does it say about humanly composed sermons and prayers as part of worship? Do they necessarily obscure our understanding of the divine? I don't think that's what you want to argue. Of course, the EP argument boils down to what God has commanded us to sing in worship, in which case it doesn't really matter how well human compositions illuminate our understanding of the divine. It comes back to our exegesis of the relevant texts.

 

[Jake]

Has there ever been anything man-made (carnal) that did not obscure, rather than illuminate, our understanding of the Divine? Thus, in all things, but especially in worship, we've been instructed to put such things away.

I have not watched the video, but I think of the creeds and confessions, which help to illuminate our understanding, while not being infallible. Additionally God commands and uses the "foolishness of preaching" and extemporaneous prayer.

 

[St. Gerdt]

equating everything of human composition with being necessarily carnal

Thank you. I will clarify.

Sermons and prayers certainly have elements of human composition, as the Word is applied to our particular circumstances. We can't escape our carnality completely, as no aspect of our humanity is free from sinfulness. The difference would be the degree of our employment of the divine, pure Word of God. A prayer that echoes back to God his own promises and revealed will is necessarily less carnal than a prayer that asks for all the things that I would like to happen on earth. Same would go for a sermon. Same would go for a song.

The Word (Jesus) reveals the Father, and nothing and no one else is able to do this to any degree - rather, we obscure the Father with any original thought of him.

Admittedly, my first comment was disruptive to the question at hand, and not meant to be a comprehensive defense of EP. I only wanted to highlight the spirituality of Christian fellowship, considering the texts given. Even in daily life, we are to engage one another's spirits with the pure words of God.