Being offended by Requred Chapel Services at School

[Scott Bushey]

Originally posted by Ex Nihilo

Originally posted by Scott Bushey

Originally posted by Ex Nihilo
Is it necessarily a sin to witness a violation or the RPW or is it only a sin to participate?

Evie,
Are you refering to the chapel? if so, it cannot be a break in the RPW as it is not a church.

I agree that it's not a church, but I also think you were right earlier in the thread when you said that private worship is still bound by the RPW. Surely there are some restrictions...

One of the problems I have with our chapel services at this school is that they are made out to be a worship service (with praise & worship music) and yet it's not at all uncommon to have female speakers. But then, if we don't apply the regulative principle, what's wrong with this? If the restrictions on the assembly are only on established churches, what's wrong with a woman preacher in that context? (On the other hand, I don't believe women should be teaching men formally outside the assembly, either, so that would still be a violation... )

Incidentally, our chapel director, who moderates the service, is also an ordained minister in a Southern Baptist church. What bearing does this have on the chapel and its obligations?

After more study, my comment about the RPW previously was wrong. The RPW is for corporate gatherings of the local church; the chapel is not a local church. They may be a gathering of the visible church, but they are not local. Local churches minister the sacraments, i.e. they are baptising, having the supper, disciplining, excommunication, etc. The chapel does not do this, they can't. There are no members. They are not a church.

As far as the minister being ordained, that is another issue altogether which I believe Matt addressed a month or so ago. From a Presbyterian perspective, I don't believe the sacraments can be administered under these conditions as I have said, no RPW is in place as it is not a church and the only persons that are able to administer sacraments is the church; locally.

[Edited on 2-27-2005 by Scott Bushey]

 

[Ex Nihilo]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey

Originally posted by Ex Nihilo

Originally posted by Scott Bushey

Originally posted by Ex Nihilo
Is it necessarily a sin to witness a violation or the RPW or is it only a sin to participate?

Evie,
Are you refering to the chapel? if so, it cannot be a break in the RPW as it is not a church.

I agree that it's not a church, but I also think you were right earlier in the thread when you said that private worship is still bound by the RPW. Surely there are some restrictions...

One of the problems I have with our chapel services at this school is that they are made out to be a worship service (with praise & worship music) and yet it's not at all uncommon to have female speakers. But then, if we don't apply the regulative principle, what's wrong with this? If the restrictions on the assembly are only on established churches, what's wrong with a woman preacher in that context? (On the other hand, I don't believe women should be teaching men formally outside the assembly, either, so that would still be a violation... )

Incidentally, our chapel director, who moderates the service, is also an ordained minister in a Southern Baptist church. What bearing does this have on the chapel and its obligations?

After more study, my comment about the RPW previously was wrong. The RPW is for corporate gatherings of the local church; the chapel is not a local church. They may be a gathering of the visible church, but they are not local. Local churches minister the sacraments, i.e. they are baptising, having the supper, disciplining, excommunication, etc. The chapel does not do this, they can't. There are no members. They are not a church.

As far as the minister being ordained, that is another issue altogether which I believe Matt addressed a month or so ago. From a Presbyterian perspective, I don't believe the sacraments can be administered under these conditions as I have said, no RPW is in place as it is not a church and the only persons that are able to administer sacraments is the church; locally.

[Edited on 2-27-2005 by Scott Bushey]

So is there, then, nothing wrong with what they are doing?

 

[Scott Bushey]

Technically yes; just ignore the silly songs etc. I don't believe it is sinful for you to attend. Continue doing your homework.....During prayer time, the word and the supper though, sober up!



[Edited on 2-27-2005 by Scott Bushey]

 

[Ex Nihilo]

It seems like there must be some restriction, though! That is, either it is wrong to have corporate worship outside the auspices of a local church or all corporate worship should be subjected to the RPW... I don't know... What you say makes sense, but I hate coming to the conclusion that it is appropriate to worship corporately without the restrictions of the RPW.

 

[Scott Bushey]

Originally posted by Ex Nihilo
It seems like there must be some restriction, though! That is, either it is wrong to have corporate worship outside the auspices of a local church or all corporate worship should be subjected to the RPW... I don't know... What you say makes sense, but I hate coming to the conclusion that it is appropriate to worship corporately without the restrictions of the RPW.

Evie,
You are not worshipping corporately. Corporate worship only occurs at the local level. For instance, does corporate worship exist in my personal worship time w/ my wife and daughter? How about at the Ligoniers conference? A local home fellowship?

here's a quick read from Bahnsen that touches on corporate worship.

http://www.reformed.org/webfiles/antithesis/v1n2/ant_v1n2_record.html

[Edited on 2-27-2005 by Scott Bushey]

 

[Ex Nihilo]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey

Originally posted by Ex Nihilo
It seems like there must be some restriction, though! That is, either it is wrong to have corporate worship outside the auspices of a local church or all corporate worship should be subjected to the RPW... I don't know... What you say makes sense, but I hate coming to the conclusion that it is appropriate to worship corporately without the restrictions of the RPW.

Evie,
You are not worshipping corporately. Corporate worship only occurs at the local level. For instance, does corporate worship exist in my personal worship time w/ my wife and daughter? How about at the Ligoniers conference? A local home fellowship?

here's a quick read from Bahnsen that touches on corporate worship.

http://www.reformed.org/webfiles/antithesis/v1n2/ant_v1n2_record.html

[Edited on 2-27-2005 by Scott Bushey]

So you would classify chapel services as private worship regardless of how much they resemble corporate worship? But even at that, are there no restrictions on private worship? Does the second commandment apply only the corporate body or to all individual believers engaging in any sort of worship? (After all, isn't idolatry sometimes an act of private worship in the Old Testament?) And, if it does, what would constitute a violation of the second commandment in private worship?

This is what I am wondering: We use the principles of the RPW to determine what the acceptable acts of corporate worship are. At the same time, I do believe the Bible has implicit guidelines for private worship. Are we not similarly bound? Maybe it isn't the RPW in the sense of the regulative principle of corporate worship, but isn't the basic idea the same--we only worship God through the means he has ordained? And if corporate worship is defined as a place where the sacraments may be administered, doesn't that sort of implicitly regulate private worship by limitation?... That is, it is inappropriate to administer the sacraments in private worship (which is, in itself, a regulation).

[Edited on 2-27-2005 by Ex Nihilo]

 

[Scott Bushey]

Evie,
Resemblance is just that, resemblance. resemblance does not change a donkey into a horse; they are what they are.
As far as restrictions, that which applies, applies. believers are bound by the scriptures. If you believe the body representing the chapel time is in error, challenge it.......

This is what I am wondering: We use the principles of the RPW to determine what the acceptable acts of corporate worship are.

The RPW is biblically geared towards the corporate worship of God. Are there things in the RPW we can gleen from for private, surely.

isn't the basic idea the same--we only worship God through the means he has ordained?

The basic idea is not the same. The RPW is geared towards the coporate worship of God. Gods word teaches believers how to pray; we pray accordingly. Gods word teaches us that His word is light; we should study. Faith comes from hearing/reading; we read. The scriptures show us that we should rejoice, and sing to God. Dance! They show us how to rear our children. These are all beneficial, yet, they are not corporate.

Did you read the Bahnsen paper. He does a much better job of explaining than I do.

[Edited on 2-27-2005 by Scott Bushey]

 

[Ex Nihilo]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Evie,
Resemblance is just that, resemblance. resemblance does not change a donkey into a horse; they are what they are.
As far as restrictions, that which applies, applies. believers are bound by the scriptures. If you believe the body representing the chapel time is in error, challenge it.......

This is what I am wondering: We use the principles of the RPW to determine what the acceptable acts of corporate worship are.

The RPW is biblically geared towards the corporate worship of God. Are there things in the RPW we can gleen from for private, surely.

isn't the basic idea the same--we only worship God through the means he has ordained?

The basic idea is not the same. The RPW is geared towards the coporate worship of God. Gods word teaches believers how to pray; we pray accordingly. Gods word teaches us that His word is light; we should study. Faith comes from hearing/reading; we read. The scriptures show us that we should rejoice, and sing to God. Dance! They show us how to rear our children. These are all beneficial, yet, they are not corporate.

Did you read the Bahnsen paper. He does a much better job of explaining than I do.

[Edited on 2-27-2005 by Scott Bushey]

Yes, it's an excellent paper by Bahnsen, and he does deal with the distinction, but I don't feel that this demonstrates that only corporate worship is subject to some sort of regulation (be it the formal RPW or a similar principle for private worship--we only worship God in private in the ways that he has ordained that we may worship him in private... for instance, we are not to administer the sacraments in private.) The Old Testament prohibition on idols didn't just include temple or tabernacle worship; it also meant that the Hebrews should not have idols in their homes.

When I said that "the basic idea is the same" I wasn't referring to the corporate nature, but the regulated nature. Private worship comes under different regulations, but is still not left up to our personal creativity... A violation of the second commandment is still a violation whether I am using graven images in a mass with other people or using an image of Christ on the cross in my personal devotion. The commandment still applies... that's why I said the basic idea is the same.

 

[Scott Bushey]

In that way, yes. As I had previously stated, believers are bound by Gods word.

 

[webler]

This is my first time on this board so I hope that it goes in correctly. I am responding to Tim's initial posting.

I am somewhat familiar with the particular school he is going to and I also attended a "christian" college a number of years ago. (back when the "Nephilim" roamed the earth). I have come to the conclusion that truth and worship as given to us in God's Word is not the driving force behind these type of schools. In a desire to seek some kind of unity they set up a system which reduces doctrine to the bare minimum that "they believe" one has to adhere to be a Christian. As long as you believe in Jesus, (keep in mind that the Jesus presented in these schools may not be the one proclaimed in the Word) you are considered a Christian. I call this form of unity the "unity of unbelief". The thought that "the Grace of God has appeared . . . instructing us to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly and righteously and goldy in this present age" never crosses their mind. As long as they "are busy for God" and doing that which appears to be righteous by their standards, they are shocked if those who are zealous for the Glory of God, because they understand what God has done in Christ in justification and sanctification, don't follow their blind guidence.

Having said all of that, Tim, you have to decide if you are getting a good education at this University and is it worth enduring a chapel service which grieves your heart. You must remember that there was a time when you did not understand "RPW" and be patient toward those that know absolutely nothing about it. If it were me, I would attend the chapels to fulfill the obligation of the piece of paper I signed and then go about doing my duties as a student, praying for the opportunity to speak with others about the things that are dear to your heart. Try to avoid being a contentious Calvinist. Remember, if you have truly come to greater understanding of the Glory and majesty of God, and see the shallow nature of man centered worship, you did not come to this because of your superior intelligence; this understanding is a blessing from God and needs to be handled humbly.

Knowing what I know about some of the attitudes at that School I will try to remember you in my prayers so that you can stand strong and be a good example of the grace of God.

 

[Ex Nihilo]

Since you've revived this thread, I wonder if anyone can answer this question: What restrictions, if any, would apply to a school chapel type of service? Is it even permissible to have such services outside the auspices of a congregation?

Of course, all worship is bound by the word of God, but what is an adherent of the RPW to do with what might be called private large-group worship services?

 

[ReformedWretch]

Wow, welcome Jay, great first post!

 

[lkjohnson]

Originally posted by Peter
Tim, I don't know the details of your situation but if uninspired songs are being sung at these chapel meetings, and the intent is to give worship to God, and there is no other benefit in attending them, I would request leave of it.

A better solution would be to find another school. Tim, you knew the requirements when you enrolled. You knew what the school stood for when you enrolled. Had you held your current conviction at the time you probably would have chosen another school. For that matter, Bob Jones would probably not have accepted you as a student.

It is unreasonable to expect them to change who they are even though you have changed who you are. We might disagree with their beliefs about worship, but they hold them as dearly as we hold ours. To ask them to change would be to ask them to violate their convictions. That is unreasonable. By enrolling in the school you agreed to abide by their rules and practices. If you find that offensive, find a school where you are more comfortable.

In other words, grow up. Realize that the vast majority of this world will not agree with your faith, but that is OK. The whole world does not revolve around you. Find a school that does not place you in that position.

That statement may be blunt, and it is certainly not what you wanted to hear, but it stands nonetheless. What would you say to a Muslim who wished to attend Bob Jones and not want to attend chapel because it is offensive to his faith? You would say, "We are Christians. There are Muslim or secular schools you can attend." As a private school, that is Bob Jones' right and responsibility. You situation is only a matter of degrees.

 

[Puritanhead]

Liberty would reprimand guys for leaving chapel service when they had female preachers... I finally got tired of pretense of protest and possibility of getting reprimands-- so i just ignored the speaker and read a book...

granted, they only had 2-3 women speakers.

 

[Jie-Huli]

It is fine to say that the Regulative Principle (in its full meaning) applies only to the corporate worship of the church, but surely everything we do in any situation, and especially in the worship of God in any sphere, must be regulated by Biblical principles. Whether or not the Regulative Principle applies to school chapel service, the 2nd and 3rd Commandments certainly apply. And I believe that most of the modern "praise and worship" music to which I believe Tim was referring are actually violations of these commandments . . . irreverent, taking the Lord's name in vain, and bordering on the idolatrous. So I believe the conviction not to attend such services is correct, notwithstanding the sphere of the Regulative Principle.

It may be best to seek another school, but in the meantime I think it perfectly proper to request leave from the chapel services, explaining your reasons. Humility and charity are always called for, of course, but so is separating oneself from unbiblical practices in the worship of God.

Blessings,

Jie-Huli

 

[webler]

Evie,

I think the question of whether or not the RPW should apply to chapels at "chrisitian" colleges is a mute point because of the fact that, most likely, none of the leaders have any intention of implementing those principles. Rather, you need the consider what is actually going on and whether your conscience can bear it.

As I pondered on this subject more I am wondering if those on this thread who have to face this problem have sought counsel from there elders or pastors at their respective churches. This is where you need to start when faced with the delemas that you have.

I personally have developed a very negative attitude to much of what goes on under the title of higher "christian" education and frankly want little to do with it. I believe that these institutions assume far more authority than God has given them. During my time at a Bible College 27 years ago I got to the point that I could no longer, with a clear conscience, attend and decided to go to electronics school. At the time I had a very sound church and relied upon that church and the elders their for my spiritual growth. Having said that I bleive that it is best to follow the conusel of the leaders at your church.

 

[Scott Bushey]

Jay,
You have a message (u2u). Upper right corner of screen

 

[webler]

Scott,

Made the change. Thanks again.

Jay

 

[ABondSlaveofChristJesus]

Originally posted by lkjohnson

Originally posted by Peter
Tim, I don't know the details of your situation but if uninspired songs are being sung at these chapel meetings, and the intent is to give worship to God, and there is no other benefit in attending them, I would request leave of it.

A better solution would be to find another school. Tim, you knew the requirements when you enrolled. You knew what the school stood for when you enrolled. Had you held your current conviction at the time you probably would have chosen another school. For that matter, Bob Jones would probably not have accepted you as a student.

It is unreasonable to expect them to change who they are even though you have changed who you are. We might disagree with their beliefs about worship, but they hold them as dearly as we hold ours. To ask them to change would be to ask them to violate their convictions. That is unreasonable. By enrolling in the school you agreed to abide by their rules and practices. If you find that offensive, find a school where you are more comfortable.

In other words, grow up. Realize that the vast majority of this world will not agree with your faith, but that is OK. The whole world does not revolve around you. Find a school that does not place you in that position.

That statement may be blunt, and it is certainly not what you wanted to hear, but it stands nonetheless. What would you say to a Muslim who wished to attend Bob Jones and not want to attend chapel because it is offensive to his faith? You would say, "We are Christians. There are Muslim or secular schools you can attend." As a private school, that is Bob Jones' right and responsibility. You situation is only a matter of degrees.

Yea this is long and running but just to go on the record since I read this... I never said that the school should change their worship style for me. Where did you get this idea? I just thought the school should maybe not force chapel on everyone. When is forced worship ever worship?

 

[Laura]

Ehh, I'm facing a similar thing at Baylor, only its services sound much more like yours, Evie and Vershal. Women speakers, performance-driven music, but no sacraments. I also do my homework in the corner, and I don't really care what it looks like - at first I thought I ran the risk of distracting others from worship, but my whole issue is that it's not worship, and I don't even hold to the RPW (yet). Anyway, I'm looking into that, but I just wanted to say that I feel your pain.

Re: forced worship - in our services they actually monitor the students and will tell them to put away their books if they have them out. I've been fortunate enough to escape this so far, but that really irritates me. If a person wants to quietly study, there is no reason to tell him to stop. "You must worship!" Yeah, that's kind of creepy.