Another seminary question...

[Formerly At Enmity]

With regard to my previous seminary question, I have another one...

I was speaking with an elder at my church and he told me about some guys who have gone to sem. over the years only to find that they were not called to do so. He was not trying to dissuade me, he was simply giving me a solemn warning I suppose. For those who are profs or students, have you seen this alot? What happens when someone realizes that they were not called to be in that environment? I'm not talking about those who can't cut it academically; I'm talking about the spiritual side of things. How frequently does this occur and how do you prevent it other than praying fervently for God's placement?

 

[jfschultz]

I was at a luncheon for CTS a couple of months ago. Part of what was mentioned was how they compare with the "average" seminary in the number of graduates that leave the pastoral ministry within 5 years. Apparently the average is close to 1/3! Seems that this might not be unusual even for those who complete seminary.

Though CTS claimes a low percentage who leave the ministry, there was no indication of how this compares to the other leading reformed seminaries.

 

[New wine skin]

A partial answer to your question is that your experience in seminary will depend on where you attend. I spent time at WTS-Dallas under Dr Ferguson and Dr John Hannah and consider that a priceless experience. I did not come away arrogant or disconnected via ivory tower syndrome. If anything, my seminary training has been a God send. None of the fears that people often associate with the intellectual world of theological study have been realized thus far.

I will agree that one should avoid taking upon too much debt for the sake of seminary.

 

[R. Scott Clark]

Jason,

This is a good question and one we hear frequently. There are a several parts to the answer.

1) There is a distinction between going to seminary and a vocation to ministry. One can go to seminary without a vocation to pastoral ministry. Though our primary function is to train/prepare/equip men for ministry, not all are called to ministry. 70% of our students are in the MDiv (ministerial) program. The others are in various MA programs that prepare them for other vocations. (NB: I define "ministry" as "pastoral ministry in a true, visible, church.")

2) Seminary is a place to explore vocation it is not a vo-tech school. Yes, we have a vocational/professional element and some students do coming with a strong sense of vocation but this isn't always the case. Sometimes it is difficult to know whether one has a vocation to ministry until one has taken a homiletics course and given one's first "sermon" or until one has gotten some other training and had a little experience. It's helpful to be on campus where other men are making the same decisions, around faculty of ministers who've gone through the same process.

3) Ultimately, the objective decision whether a man has a vocation from God to ministry is an eccelesiastical decision. It's not a decision a seminary can or should make. As ministers, we (faculty) do sometimes speak to an MA student and perhaps help him to determine that perhaps the MDiv or at least pastoral ministry is not his vocation.

4) Subjectively, discerning a call to ministry is or can be difficult and is not always accomplished before seminary. Remember, to expand on #3, seminary is a school, not the church. It is a place of training. It is not for those who have "arrived," but for those "on the way." Speaking strictly, those who should "not be" at seminary are those who are not academically eligible or who are so immature spiritually or morally or emotionally or psychologically that they shouldn't be in any school. There are cases where a person perhaps shouldn't be at seminary because of what he might do with a degree, but that is really an ecclesiastical decision. God gave us sessions, presbyteries, and General Assemblies (or consistories, classes, and synods - he really did give us these things!) to sort out such questions. It is encumbant upon presbyters and ministers to fulfill that part of their vocation.

5) Let's say a man goes through sem, takes an MDiv, and realizes that he doesn't have a vocation to ministry. It's not the end of the world. It's not as if we've given the nuclear "football" to Iranian terrorists! We've prepared a man with extensive training in the Scriptures and confessions and theology and history and practice of our churches! It's not a bad thing to have trained laity in our churches. Most pastors and sessions would kill (metaphorically) to have a trained man in their congregation. In our congregation we have a man who took a degree at WSC and he is now serving as an elder. It's a great blessing to have him available to serve and to be able to draw upon his training.

6) I've written in other threads about the art of discerning a call. Be careful not to make it too mystical. Yes, there is a subjective element, involving prayer, but let's not become Pentecostals as we contemplate Reformed ministry! That's a great irony about how Reformed men too often decide on vocation - they throw our theology and confession out the window to do it and they listen for extra-canonical revelations, the existence of which they deny in their teaching and preaching!

7) One can tell me that one "has a call" til one is blue in the face, but if one can't or won't read Greek/Hebrew and learn the other necessary skills for ministry and lacks the maturity and "teachability" requisite (ministry = lifeling learning!) then I'm not much interested in hearing about one's "call" to ministry any more than I'm interested in hearing about one's call to become a surgeon without going to medical school! There's no marking that says "cut here" in ministry or in surgery. Either you know where to cut and how deep or you do not and that knowing comes by hard work.

8) There is an inward, subjective, sense of necessity, but that develops. It doesn't often appear out of the blue fully developed. A healthy church life (good catechetical instruction, good supervision by the elders and minister) is vital, but even in that case, those who haven't been thoroughly trained ought not be in the pulpit and without that experience it's pretty hard to know certainly that one is called to ministry.

9) So without going to seminary and getting some basic training it can be really difficult to know whether one is called. How does one know whether one should be a Marine and put in his 20 or more? (our congregation has a few Marines). It takes a little time in the Corps to know. He has to go through basic and get some training to know whether this is something he should do. Ministry is a lot like the Marines. As a sem prof, I am a sort of drill sargeant (Think of Jack Webb in The D.I.). My job is to keep you from being killed in ministry or from accidentally killing, as it were, others.

Blessings,

rsc

Originally posted by Formerly At Enmity
With regard to my previous seminary question, I have another one...

I was speaking with an elder at my church and he told me about some guys who have gone to sem. over the years only to find that they were not called to do so. He was not trying to dissuade me, he was simply giving me a solemn warning I suppose. For those who are profs or students, have you seen this alot? What happens when someone realizes that they were not called to be in that environment? I'm not talking about those who can't cut it academically; I'm talking about the spiritual side of things. How frequently does this occur and how do you prevent it other than praying fervently for God's placement?

 

[R. Scott Clark]

For what it's worth,

our "placement" rate for our MDiv students is very high and the retention rate is also quite high. I don't want to give percentages because I don't have the statistics in front of me.

When folks make these comparisons they usually include mainline sems and all sorts of folk and circumstances that queer the figures.

In our world (NAPARC) our grads go into generally sound congregations in generally sound Presbyteries/Classes etc. They sustain not only academic exams but rigorous ecclesiastical exams.

When all the ATS (Roman, Lutheran, Evangelical etc, even one sem with no students!) seminaries are factored in, the pot is so diverse as to produce statistical results that are virtually irrelevant to the NAPARC churches.

Informally I can say that we often lose a few students after the first semester or after the first year. If they make it to the second year, then they are most likely to stay. By the time they get to graduation, our MDiv students usually have a pretty strong sense of vocation. They've put in 700 hours in their internship working in a congregation (or congregations) over three or four years. They've had their call tested. Many of them graduate with calls or extended internships in hand.

rsc

Originally posted by jfschultz
I was at a luncheon for CTS a couple of months ago. Part of what was mentioned was how they compare with the "average" seminary in the number of graduates that leave the pastoral ministry within 5 years. Apparently the average is close to 1/3! Seems that this might not be unusual even for those who complete seminary.

Though CTS claimes a low percentage who leave the ministry, there was no indication of how this compares to the other leading reformed seminaries.

[Edited on 6-13-2006 by R. Scott Clark]

 

[SolaScriptura]

Originally posted by R. Scott Clark
... even one sem with no students! ...

What in the world? Which seminary is that?

 

[Formerly At Enmity]

Originally posted by New wine skin
A partial answer to your question is that your experience in seminary will depend on where you attend. I spent time at WTS-Dallas under Dr Ferguson and Dr John Hannah and consider that a priceless experience. I did not come away arrogant or disconnected via ivory tower syndrome. If anything, my seminary training has been a God send. None of the fears that people often associate with the intellectual world of theological study have been realized thus far.

I will agree that one should avoid taking upon too much debt for the sake of seminary.

I would LOVE to sit under Ferguson's teaching. I don't want to go on and on about seminary considering it's about 2 years away, however, I do look forward to many things that I THINK seminary would consist of...I'll ask more questions as the time draws nigh!

 

[DTK]

Dr Clark,

Thank you for this very helpful post. I wonder if I could explore one of the comments you made...

3) Ultimately, the objective decision whether a man has a vocation from God to ministry is an eccelesiastical decision. It's not a decision a seminary can or should make. As ministers, we (faculty) do sometimes speak to an MA student and perhaps help him to determine that perhaps the MDiv or at least pastoral ministry is not his vocation.

I agree whole-heartedly that, ultimately, "the objective decision whether a man has a vocation from God to ministry is an eccelesiastical decision." Maybe it's only me, but I sense a tension in your other comments here that seem (at least to me) to vacillate (is that the correct way of expressing it?) between Seminary Professors (most if not all of whom are ordained ministers) exerting too much influence in this regard and not exerting enough influence...i.e., assuming some responsibility for this, while not assuming too much responsibility here. I confess that when I was at RTS in Jackson, MS(80-83), I felt that too many students were being encouraged to pursue the pastoral ministry by a neglect of examining their gifts for such, or perhaps assuming that this really wasn't an issue with which to contend. I came away from my seminary experience, perhaps quite flawed in my conclusion, that men were being encouraged to attend Seminary, particularly with respect to the M.Div program, in order for the Seminary to preserve its own financial well-being (which could be interpreted as self-serving, or self-perpetuating), quite altogether apart from the reality of whether these students were really gifted for pastoral ministry. I do think that Seminary is necessary, and that there is nothing comparative to (shall I put it like this?) "inclass interaction" in a physical Seminary setting, where one attends not only face to face lectures, but the opportunity to interact with professors on specifics therein discussed.

Your post, on the one hand, seems to disclaim this responsibility somewhat, while at the same time recognizing that the ministers there, teaching as Seminary professors, do bear at least some responsibility for such guidance. Perhaps I'm being too idealistic in what I've expected in a Seminary education with respect to such practical guidance.

Again, thanks for your very helpful post.
DTK

 

[R. Scott Clark]

If memory serves, it's this one.

They now serve as a clearing house for info and training center for other seminaries.

I first learned about them when I was academic dean and at a conference some years ago. I could be mistaken about the exact place, but a speaker did describe a sem with no students.

rsc

Originally posted by SolaScriptura

Originally posted by R. Scott Clark
... even one sem with no students! ...

What in the world? Which seminary is that?

 

[R. Scott Clark]

David,

Thanks for your post.

We trust God to provide for our future. If he wants WSC to be in existence, then he will provide for us. If not, we'll return to preaching full-time. In my Christian life and ministry, God has ALWAYS provided, even in and through some fairly dire circumstances.

We do have a development dept and we do ask and pray for help, but we're not mercenary. I don't think you were suggesting that, but let me set anyone's mind at ease that we're not in this for the money! Most of our faculty are NOT as well paid as local ministers. Students whom I taught who just graduated routinely make more money than I do. That's fine. I don't minister for money. The same is true for the seminary. We don't exist to perpetuate our own existence. We exist to serve. If we thought we were draining resources from the kingdom simply to stay alive, we would shut the doors tomorrow.

I'm not sure how that "sounds," but it's true. We're here to fulfill a vocation. We're here because we love the gospel and the Reformed faith and want to do what we can to help advance the knowledge of Christ. To that end, I am zealous to see as many students as possible attend WSC because I think we have an outstanding school and I want to educate as many folks as possible. There are only 500,000 Reformed folk in the USA (in Anglo or predominantly English language churches anyway). We need to plant churches. We need to train ministers to plant churches. The need is vast (it's eternal!) and we are small so maybe (like some Marines I've known - no reflection on Rich! ) I overcompensate a little.

I did not mean to send the signal that we at WSC do not mentor students. Quite the opposite is true. We are deliberate in our out-of-class mentoring of students. Next to teaching, the best part of my job is going to lunch with and just talking with students, helping them to think clearly and biblically about their vocation and the ministry.

Officially, we meet with them weekly in prayer groups. We meet with them once a semester privately. We see them in class.

We have a lot more unofficial contact with them through email and phone and conversation and at church. There's been a real change since I was a sem student. I rarely saw my profs outside of class. That's certainly not true now. Some of my students have blogs, and I read them daily to keep up with what's happening with them. We see them in the hall and play football on the commons. I play quarterback. Even though I'm from Nebraska I can still throw a tight spiral for 20-25 yards. Not a great arm, but accurate enough for lunch time football. I digress.

I do wear two hats. I am first of all a minister of the gospel and I fulfill my vocation as minister in a seminary as a teacher. As a sem teacher, however, I cannot do the work of sessions and presbyteries. I cannot unilaterally decide that a man is unfit for ministry and chase him out of seminary. I can advise a man whom I perceive to be immature or not ready for ministry to wait or I can contact a session/consistory and advise them. At the end of the day, however, the visible institutional church must evaluate a candidate. As a school, we must not usurp the prerogatives of the church.

It would be very helpful if Presbytery committees and consistories/sessions would occasionally call us to find out how a student did and what our experience with him was. We often do not hear from Presbyteries/Classes until after exams and then only to complain. Well, if a man was a "C" student in seminary and he earned enough credits to gradute, what can we do? We're obligated to graduate him. Where were the complaining presbyters while this man was in seminary? Why were they surprised by his mediocre performance on the floor of presbytery? What else did they expect a C student to do? If they had paid some attention while he was in seminary they would have known he was a C student and that he needed some additional ecclesiastical oversight.

Some of our students never hear from their session/consistory or Presbytery/classis during their seminary career. It's as if they've been sent away to boarding school to be returned fully formed (often with no financial support either!) and then they sometimes complain that the "product" is not what (they haven't) "paid for."

For what it's worth, ALL our profs are ministers. All of them are required by school statute to be ordained to ministerial office or, by exception, to the office of ruling elder (to my knowledge, we've had one such in 25+ years, Darryl Hart, who is now a visiting prof). In this respect, I think WSC is different from other schools. We're all active in pastoral ministry. We all preach regularly. We don't hold classes on Mondays because many of us are away preaching and we don't want to travel on the sabbath to get back to school to teach on Monday. Our students are frequently away working in churches and they travel back on Mondays too.

So we try to function as ministers without usurping the role of the church. We do represent different denominations/federations. I can take a stronger hand with URC students than I can with OPC or PCA students, but we have OPC and PCA faculty who exercise special oversight over those students. We meet with them in intern lunches twice monthly to talk with them about specific practical issues in our various denominations/federations. So I meet with URC students and we have local pastors in to speak about ministerial vocation and other issues.

Frankly, because our academic requirements, we don't get many marginal students or students who aren't highly motivated. If they get in, they don't last long. If a student raises concern by his behavior or language or attitude or give some other signal that he might not belong in seminary we address it. Students are challenged regularly to look first to Christ, to believe the gospel, and then to apply it to themelves and to examine themselves to see if they're making progress toward fulfilling their vocation and not simply spending time.

Our student:teacher ratio is about 10 or 12:1 so we get to know the students quite well. We're about 140 students right now. I think RTS/J is about 500 students or so. It's a much larger place - students have to cross the street to use the library! Our campus is much smaller and a bit more intimate. There are no anonymous students here!

We are a commuter campus, but, if the Lord permits, we hope to change that by building on campus housing. That will increase our community with the students and their community with one another. Students do also help to keep one another accountable.

In short, we are a school full of ministers and ministers-to-be. We do live with certain amount of tension, but not ambivalence or confusion. We know what we're about and I think we know our duty and the limits of our offices as teachers in the seminary but we also know our vocation and duty as ministers in the churches. So we work hard to try to function in both worlds simultaneously.

I hope this helps.

rsc

 

[fredtgreco]

Originally posted by R. Scott Clark

Our student:teacher ratio is about 10 or 12:1 so we get to know the students quite well. We're about 140 students right now. I think RTS/J is about 500 students or so. It's a much larger place - students have to cross the street to use the library! Our campus is much smaller and a bit more intimate. There are no anonymous students here!

Slightly off. At RTS-J there are about 150 students (of all sorts), of which about 85 are MDiv. With about 10 full time faculty (and about 5-7 more part time), the ratio is about 8:1.

 

[crhoades]

Here are a few thoughts from someone who is entertaining the same thoughts.

1. Call Reformation Heritage Books and order this course from Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary:
614/614a Pastoral Theology IV: The Christian Minister and Ministry 22 lectures Dr.J.R.Beeke MP3

In it Dr. Beeke covers what is the pastoral office, its qualifications, the inward/outward call, the minister's life, vocation etc. I'm listening to it now and it has been great as far as laying out what you're getting yourself into.

2. Don't stop there! Check out Covenant Seminary's Online Classes which are classes that they do for distance to see what type of classes you will be entering into. They're free. Granted, they might not be as rigorous as WTS PA or WSC but it will get your feet wet. Check out some classes from WTS PA. If money is an option, they typically have these available in cassette for interlibrary loan for free. I've listened to a couple of classes that way. PRTS has all of their courses available for purchase as well. All of this to say there are 4 seminaries (forgot RTS) who make their classes available for purchase. Work through a couple of them to get a feel.

3. Visit the top 2-3 seminaries if possible.

4. Most importantly!!! Get involved with your session at church. I'm currently in a Mentored for Ministry/Pastoral Intern program at our church that involves one-on-one training/discipling with the pastor as well as opportunities to teach/exhort etc. It has been incredible as far as developing a sense of the call plus it will aid our church and presbytery in determining gifts and calling in order to send me to seminary. Ideally one does not decide to go to seminary per se, they are sent.

5. Begin training yourself right now. Begin learning the Greek and Hebrew alphabet in order to start memorizing vocabulary. Memorize the Westminster Shorter Catechism if you haven't already. Read broadly in recommended lists. If you decide to go to a seminary that does offer any distance classes, take a couple before you move there.

6. Don't be in a rush to go. Heed the call but go at it wisely. Count the costs before you build.

 

[DTK]

Dr. Clark,

Thank you for such a refreshing and encouraging post. The professors at RTS did, for the most part, show interest in us outside the class, both formally and informally. I loved all of mine. It is so encouraging to hear how much time the men of Westminster West are doing the same.

Thank you for the time you put into this post with your reply. It is very helpful to me.

Blessings,
DTK

 

[R. Scott Clark]

Dear Fred,

Sorry about that. My recollection was really confused!

I remember a large campus with multiple buildings and the enrollment figure was, as I recall, given to me by an administrator or some other staff person when I was there or at a Dean's meeting in Phoenix in the late '90's.

For what it's worth, according to ATS, RTS (all campuses) reported most recently 1,226 students (divided by 12 credits = 677 full-time equivalent [FTE] students). Of these 1226, 418 (324 FTE) are MDiv.

In the same year we reported 96 MDiv (77 FTE) students out of 148 (109 FTE) total enrollment. We're only one campus as compared to the several RTS campuses. ATS doesn't give figures for the various RTS locations.

I recall hearing that Orlando was about 800 students. Is that correct?

The report is here

Cheers,

rsc

Originally posted by fredtgreco

Originally posted by R. Scott Clark

Our student:teacher ratio is about 10 or 12:1 so we get to know the students quite well. We're about 140 students right now. I think RTS/J is about 500 students or so. It's a much larger place - students have to cross the street to use the library! Our campus is much smaller and a bit more intimate. There are no anonymous students here!

Slightly off. At RTS-J there are about 150 students (of all sorts), of which about 85 are MDiv. With about 10 full time faculty (and about 5-7 more part time), the ratio is about 8:1.

 

[fredtgreco]

Scott,

You could be correct about Orlando. I'm just not sure, but my recollection is that it is much larger than Jackson. There are also all of the "satellite" campuses (Atlanta, Washington, etc.).

Like David said, thanks for the substance of your post, which I too found very helpful.

Originally posted by R. Scott Clark
Dear Fred,

Sorry about that. My recollection was really confused!

I remember a large campus with multiple buildings and the enrollment figure was, as I recall, given to me by an administrator or some other staff person when I was there or at a Dean's meeting in Phoenix in the late '90's.

For what it's worth, according to ATS, RTS (all campuses) reported most recently 1,226 students (divided by 12 credits = 677 full-time equivalent [FTE] students). Of these 1226, 418 (324 FTE) are MDiv.

In the same year we reported 96 MDiv (77 FTE) students out of 148 (109 FTE) total enrollment. We're only one campus as compared to the several RTS campuses. ATS doesn't give figures for the various RTS locations.

I recall hearing that Orlando was about 800 students. Is that correct?

The report is here

Cheers,

rsc

Originally posted by fredtgreco

Originally posted by R. Scott Clark

Our student:teacher ratio is about 10 or 12:1 so we get to know the students quite well. We're about 140 students right now. I think RTS/J is about 500 students or so. It's a much larger place - students have to cross the street to use the library! Our campus is much smaller and a bit more intimate. There are no anonymous students here!

Slightly off. At RTS-J there are about 150 students (of all sorts), of which about 85 are MDiv. With about 10 full time faculty (and about 5-7 more part time), the ratio is about 8:1.

 

[Formerly At Enmity]

Originally posted by crhoades
Here are a few thoughts from someone who is entertaining the same thoughts.

1. Call Reformation Heritage Books and order this course from Puritan Reformed Theological Seminary:
614/614a Pastoral Theology IV: The Christian Minister and Ministry 22 lectures Dr.J.R.Beeke MP3

In it Dr. Beeke covers what is the pastoral office, its qualifications, the inward/outward call, the minister's life, vocation etc. I'm listening to it now and it has been great as far as laying out what you're getting yourself into.

2. Don't stop there! Check out Covenant Seminary's Online Classes which are classes that they do for distance to see what type of classes you will be entering into. They're free. Granted, they might not be as rigorous as WTS PA or WSC but it will get your feet wet. Check out some classes from WTS PA. If money is an option, they typically have these available in cassette for interlibrary loan for free. I've listened to a couple of classes that way. PRTS has all of their courses available for purchase as well. All of this to say there are 4 seminaries (forgot RTS) who make their classes available for purchase. Work through a couple of them to get a feel.

3. Visit the top 2-3 seminaries if possible.

4. Most importantly!!! Get involved with your session at church. I'm currently in a Mentored for Ministry/Pastoral Intern program at our church that involves one-on-one training/discipling with the pastor as well as opportunities to teach/exhort etc. It has been incredible as far as developing a sense of the call plus it will aid our church and presbytery in determining gifts and calling in order to send me to seminary. Ideally one does not decide to go to seminary per se, they are sent.

5. Begin training yourself right now. Begin learning the Greek and Hebrew alphabet in order to start memorizing vocabulary. Memorize the Westminster Shorter Catechism if you haven't already. Read broadly in recommended lists. If you decide to go to a seminary that does offer any distance classes, take a couple before you move there.

6. Don't be in a rush to go. Heed the call but go at it wisely. Count the costs before you build.

I particularly like this idea.......very promising!