Another Question on women in the Church

[ServantofGod]

I have been attending a Sovereign Grace church for the past few weeks, and I had a question which I could probably find the answer around somewhere, but not really in the mood to look for it.

At this church they allow women to read the Scripture that the sermon will be on, and women also come forward and read and pray up at the front of the church during the singing time. Is that prohibited in Paul's command for women to "learn in silence"?

 

[Coram Deo]

I believe it does prohibit woman from reading, teaching, and praying out loud..

But who am I, just another radical......

I have been attending a Sovereign Grace church for the past few weeks, and I had a question which I could probably find the answer around somewhere, but not really in the mood to look for it.

At this church they allow women to read the Scripture that the sermon will be on, and women also come forward and read and pray up at the front of the church during the singing time. Is that prohibited in Paul's command for women to "learn in silence"?

 

[TaylorOtwell]

It seems to be prohibited in the same fashion that it is prohibited for someone to speak in tongue without an interpreter, and their aren't any exceptions listed there. So, I don't see any Scriptural basis for disagreeing with previous posts.

 

[Simply_Nikki]

What if a husband and wife team read scripture? At my former PCA church in Chicago, we had this happen. The scripture reading was part of the order of worship we'd have the OT and NT readings, then the pastor would read the scripture for that day's sermon, pray then begin his sermon.

 

[ModernPuritan?]

do women giving devotionals for a coed speech class violate the rule too?

 

[ADKing]

From the WLC...

Question 156: Is the Word of God to be read by all?

Answer: Although all are not to be permitted to read the Word publicly to the congregation, yet all sorts of people are bound to read it apart by themselves, and with their families: to which end, the holy Scriptures are to be translated out of the original into vulgar languages.

This should be understood in light of the what the divines said in the Directory for Public Worship

Of Publick Reading of the Holy Scriptures.

READING of the word in the congregation, being part of the publick worship of God, (wherein we; acknowledge our dependence upon him, and subjection to him,) and one mean sanctified by him for the edifying of his people, is to be performed by the pastors and teachers.

Howbeit, such as intend the ministry, may occasionally both read the word, and exercise their gift in preaching in the congregation, if allowed by the presbytery thereunto.

The Reformed understanding is that the reading of God's word belongs to the ministerial office.

 

[Kevin Lewis]

I agree with Josh

Yes. It's prohibited.

That would be my understanding.

 

[toddpedlar]

Yes. It's prohibited.

That would be my understanding.

me too.

The phenomenon of women reading Scripture seems to flow from the idea that everyone has to be "involved" somehow; that God wouldn't want us to worship without having the opportunity to "take part" in worship. Somehow it is no longer enough to hear the lovely Word of God read by the elders of the church, to sing together, to be led in adoration, confession, thanksgiving and supplication, and to hear that precious Word faithfully preached. Somehow we have decided that I, TOO have to get up front and "use my gifts". It's truly a case of our own arrogance and sense of autonomy playing out. This is what has bred instances of little Johnny playing his drum (cute as that might be, it's got NO place in the gathered worship of the church), and every Tom, Dick and Harriet reading scripture.

Isn't worshipping together under the care of God's ordained undershepherds sufficient "participation"? Apparently not.

 

[Herald]

Prohibited.

 

[Southern Presbyterian]

Somehow we have decided that I, TOO have to get up front and "use my gifts". It's truly a case of our own arrogance and sense of autonomy playing out.

and

It's Jacobian philosophy being lived out in the Church, of all places.

 

[DMcFadden]

Somehow we have decided that I, TOO have to get up front and "use my gifts". It's truly a case of our own arrogance and sense of autonomy playing out. This is what has bred instances of little Johnny playing his drum (cute as that might be, it's got NO place in the gathered worship of the church), and every Tom, Dick and Harriet reading scripture.

Todd, why don't you get up on Sunday and exercise your gifts? You know . . . do a little cold fusion demonstration . . . change lead into gold . . . cure the rhino virus . . . explain mathematically why whatever line you get in at the grocery store is always the slowest one . . . those kinds of things.

 

[Herald]

Tom, Dick and Harriet reading scripture.

Todd, when I grew up it was "Tom, Dick and Harry." Have you succumbed to political gender correctness? Why was Harriet added to this most noble of colloquialisms? Did Harry privately offend you? Or could it be that Harry's name is copyrighted and you did not have the expressed written consent of Major League Baseball? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Rev. Todd Ruddell]

The reading of Scripture is an authoritative duty, therefore it is left for the ministers or those otherwise licensed to do so. The Apostle Paul told Timothy to include reading among his other ministerial duties (1 Timothy 4.13) The Reading of Scripture is an exercise of leadership in the worship service, and the Apostle specifically forbade this leadership role to women. (1 Timothy 2.9-15).

 

[BobVigneault]

Surprisingly, this recent presidential campaign has the candidates speaking of church and worship and christianity more openly than in previous campaigns. One thing we have learned is that there is a prevailing trend to define worship differences as "You worship God your way, and I'll worship God my way." We see the dramatic consequence of this in hearing politicians embrace homosexual sin and infant murder as differences in how we may approach God.

Within the more conservative and reformed churches we don't see such blatant upending of Biblical principles but unfortunately there is still an acceptance of the practice of letting individuals define worship.

We must always come back with the answer, "You worship God your way, and I'll worship God HIS WAY." The Regulative Worship Principle is a tough path to follow and we can become too vigilant in our devotion to 'get it all perfect', but we must at least begin with seeking to worship God HIS WAY and building on that foundation.

 

[ModernPuritan?]

We must always come back with the answer, "You worship God your way, and I'll worship God HIS WAY."

excellent point indeed!

 

[TimV]

What if a husband and wife team read scripture? At my former PCA church in Chicago, we had this happen. The scripture reading was part of the order of worship we'd have the OT and NT readings, then the pastor would read the scripture for that day's sermon, pray then begin his sermon.

Another thing the PCA will have to address somewhere down the road. So far, they haven't even addressed whether women can teach men's Bible studies.

That one philosophy that's going around in the PCA that "a women can do anything an unordained man can do" allows women to read the Scriptures during Sunday service, teach coed Bible studies etc..and participate to one degree another in the Lord's Supper, although there is a position paper restricting the administration of the Sacraments to the Elders.

There was the case If I recall correctly in Tennessee where a large PCA church let a woman preach during Sunday night service, and he used this philosophy. He explained this by using this philosophy. When asked if the woman who led the service was preaching, he said, no, only Elders can peach, and since only men can be Elders and she isn't a man then she obviously wasn't preaching. At the church court case that resulted, someone on the panel asked the Pastor if his reasoning was "Clintonesque" and he said no, that just because it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and sounds like a duck, it doesn't mean it's a duck. The way the case was resolved, at least as far as I can see it, was that the Pastor said it was wrong, and he wouldn't allow it again. But the main (to my mind) issue of whether a woman can do anything an unordained man can do wasn't resolved, and eventually will have to be.

 

[raekwon]

I don't know that there's a Scriptural injunction against women leading corporate prayer (in fact, there are Scriptural examples of such without condemnation), but the reading of Scripture carries (in and of itself) authority, and in a sense, reading Scripture is authoritative teaching -- interpreted or not.

So . . . yes to prayer, no to Scripture reading.

 

[toddpedlar]

I don't know that there's a Scriptural injunction against women leading corporate prayer (in fact, there are Scriptural examples of such without condemnation), but the reading of Scripture carries (in and of itself) authority, and in a sense, reading Scripture is authoritative teaching -- interpreted or not.

So . . . yes to prayer, no to Scripture reading.

Hm. How is prayer-leading less "authoritative" than Scripture reading?

I don't buy the "authoritative" vs. "non-authoritative" teaching distinction - t'aint no such thing. Teaching is authoritative by its very nature.

And, since you claim they exist, can you show an example of a woman leading prayer for a congregation of God's people in gathered worship (or otherwise?)?

 

[raekwon]

I don't know that there's a Scriptural injunction against women leading corporate prayer (in fact, there are Scriptural examples of such without condemnation), but the reading of Scripture carries (in and of itself) authority, and in a sense, reading Scripture is authoritative teaching -- interpreted or not.

So . . . yes to prayer, no to Scripture reading.

Hm. How is prayer-leading less "authoritative" than Scripture reading?

Well . . . spoken prayers are not the Word of God (though they may contain references to it). The reading of Scripture is the reading of the Word of God, which is by nature authoritative.

I don't buy the "authoritative" vs. "non-authoritative" teaching distinction - t'aint no such thing. Teaching is authoritative by its very nature.

Even if that's true (and I wasn't trying to make such a distinction, by the way), prayer is not teaching. And if we go with the angle that the one who voices the prayer is representing the people before God (and therefore in some sort of authoritative/mediatorial position) . . . well, I don't know if I buy that either. There's but one mediator between God and man -- Jesus Christ. If the pray-er is a mediator of some sort, should we limit it further and say that only ordained elders may pray? (I'm sure some would say "of course!")

And, since you claim they exist, can you show an example of a woman leading prayer for a congregation of God's people in gathered worship (or otherwise?)?

HERE'S where you caught me (and I appreciate it). I was thinking of prophecy, not prayer. In Acts, God makes promises of the coming of his Spirit, one of the results of which is men and women prophesying. As far as I can remember, almost all Scriptural references to prophecy after the establishment of the Church were in the context of corporate worship, but I'm willing to be corrected there.

Even so, I'm not seeing where a woman's voicing of a prayer in corporate worship is forbidden by Scripture. But, as for the topic of the thread, like I said . . . reading Scripture is out, I think.

 

[ADKing]

I don't know that there's a Scriptural injunction against women leading corporate prayer (in fact, there are Scriptural examples of such without condemnation),.

I think the key word, brother, is "leading" in prayer. The very phrase implies a woman speaking on behalf of the whole congregation as its mouthpiece before God. What approved examples are you referring to? I think if proponents of women leading in prayer appeal to I Corinthians 11 they will open a whole that they don't intend to follow through with.

 

[raekwon]

I don't know that there's a Scriptural injunction against women leading corporate prayer (in fact, there are Scriptural examples of such without condemnation),.

I think the key word, brother, is "leading" in prayer. The very phrase implies a woman speaking on behalf of the whole congregation as its mouthpiece before God. What approved examples are you referring to? I think if proponents of women leading in prayer appeal to I Corinthians 11 they will open a whole that they don't intend to follow through with.

See my previous post. It addresses the whole "mouthpiece before God" bit (though you may still disagree with me).

 

[ADKing]

I meant to post this quote from the Westminster Form of Presbyterial Church Government. It has excellent proof texts.

THE pastor is an ordinary and perpetual officer in the church, prophesying of the time of the gospel.

First, it belongs to his office,

To pray for and with his flock, as the mouth of the people unto God, Acts vi. 2, 3, 4, and xx. 36, where preaching and prayer are joined as several parts of the same office. The office of the elder (that is, the pastor) is to pray for the sick, even in private, to which a blessing is especially promised; much more therefore ought he to perform this in the publick execution of his office, as a part thereof. a. Acts vi:2,3,4. Acts xx:36 b. James v:14,15 c. 1 Cor. xiv:15,16 To read the Scriptures publickly; for the proof of which,

1. That the priests and Levites in the Jewish church were trusted with the publick reading of the word is proved.

a. Deut. xxxi:9,10,11. Neh. viii:1,2,3,13 2. That the ministers of the gospel have as ample a charge and commission to dispense the word, as well as other ordinances, as the priests and Levites had under the law, proved, Isa. lxvi. 21. Matt. xxiii. 34. where our Saviour entitleth the officers of the New Testament, whom he will send forth, by the same names of the teachers of the Old.

a. Isa. lxvi:21. Matt. xxiii:34 Which propositions prove, that therefore (the duty being of a moral nature) it followeth by just consequence, that the publick reading of the scriptures belongeth to the pastor's office

 

[ADKing]

I don't know that there's a Scriptural injunction against women leading corporate prayer (in fact, there are Scriptural examples of such without condemnation),.

I think the key word, brother, is "leading" in prayer. The very phrase implies a woman speaking on behalf of the whole congregation as its mouthpiece before God. What approved examples are you referring to? I think if proponents of women leading in prayer appeal to I Corinthians 11 they will open a whole that they don't intend to follow through with.

See my previous post. It addresses the whole "mouthpiece before God" bit (though you may still disagree with me).

Then what do you think leading in prayer means? What is happening when one person is praying to God in worship? I acknowledge a distinction between leading/representing and mediating. In fact it is quite an important distinction.

 

[toddpedlar]

I don't know that there's a Scriptural injunction against women leading corporate prayer (in fact, there are Scriptural examples of such without condemnation), but the reading of Scripture carries (in and of itself) authority, and in a sense, reading Scripture is authoritative teaching -- interpreted or not.

So . . . yes to prayer, no to Scripture reading.

Hm. How is prayer-leading less "authoritative" than Scripture reading?

Well . . . spoken prayers are not the Word of God (though they may contain references to it). The reading of Scripture is the reading of the Word of God, which is by nature authoritative.

But it is leading of the whole body in prayer - her word choices are the words of the congregation - and for a woman to step into this role is completely contrary to the proscription of women standing in roles of authority in the church.

Of the two, I think leading corporate prayer is much more clearly a usurpation of authority than is reading the Word of God (but both are inappropriate). In the former case, the authority is more clearly being exercised - in the latter, it is almost certainly the case that the selection of the text is the pastor's doing, and the woman is merely reading the words so selected. It's hard for me to see how if leading the congregation in prayer is permissible that reading Scripture (and even expositing Scripture) is not.

I don't buy the "authoritative" vs. "non-authoritative" teaching distinction - t'aint no such thing. Teaching is authoritative by its very nature.

Even if that's true (and I wasn't trying to make such a distinction, by the way), prayer is not teaching. And if we go with the angle that the one who voices the prayer is representing the people before God (and therefore in some sort of authoritative/mediatorial position) . . . well, I don't know if I buy that either. There's but one mediator between God and man -- Jesus Christ. If the pray-er is a mediator of some sort, should we limit it further and say that only ordained elders may pray? (I'm sure some would say "of course!")
[/quote]

If a person leading in corporate prayer is not representing the people before God when they do so, then what, pray tell, are they doing? Authority in this respect is not a matter of mediatorial activity - but a matter of taking the reins of control, i.e. the authority over the congregation, in the worship service.

And, since you claim they exist, can you show an example of a woman leading prayer for a congregation of God's people in gathered worship (or otherwise?)?

HERE'S where you caught me (and I appreciate it). I was thinking of prophecy, not prayer. In Acts, God makes promises of the coming of his Spirit, one of the results of which is men and women prophesying. As far as I can remember, almost all Scriptural references to prophecy after the establishment of the Church were in the context of corporate worship, but I'm willing to be corrected there.

Even so, I'm not seeing where a woman's voicing of a prayer in corporate worship is forbidden by Scripture. But, as for the topic of the thread, like I said . . . reading Scripture is out, I think.

The issue of prophecy is a different matter... and I think that would require a different thread.

 

[raekwon]

Hm. How is prayer-leading less "authoritative" than Scripture reading?

Well . . . spoken prayers are not the Word of God (though they may contain references to it). The reading of Scripture is the reading of the Word of God, which is by nature authoritative.

But it is leading of the whole body in prayer - her word choices are the words of the congregation - and for a woman to step into this role is completely contrary to the proscription of women standing in roles of authority in the church.

Of the two, I think leading corporate prayer is much more clearly a usurpation of authority than is reading the Word of God (but both are inappropriate). In the former case, the authority is more clearly being exercised - in the latter, it is almost certainly the case that the selection of the text is the pastor's doing, and the woman is merely reading the words so selected. It's hard for me to see how if leading the congregation in prayer is permissible that reading Scripture (and even expositing Scripture) is not.

You have a point worth considering there, Todd, even if I'm still not sure that I agree. I have a difficult time calling it "usurpation" if an elder has asked her if she would pray, but I understand your point. What would you say if the prayer was pre-written by the pastor or another elder? (We've done this in our church.)

 

[Stephen]

I believe it does prohibit woman from reading, teaching, and praying out loud..

But who am I, just another radical......

I have been attending a Sovereign Grace church for the past few weeks, and I had a question which I could probably find the answer around somewhere, but not really in the mood to look for it.

At this church they allow women to read the Scripture that the sermon will be on, and women also come forward and read and pray up at the front of the church during the singing time. Is that prohibited in Paul's command for women to "learn in silence"?

As well as the Westminister Standards and Directory of Worship. All people, both men and women are prohibited from this in public worship, except the elders.

 

[toddpedlar]

Well . . . spoken prayers are not the Word of God (though they may contain references to it). The reading of Scripture is the reading of the Word of God, which is by nature authoritative.

But it is leading of the whole body in prayer - her word choices are the words of the congregation - and for a woman to step into this role is completely contrary to the proscription of women standing in roles of authority in the church.

Of the two, I think leading corporate prayer is much more clearly a usurpation of authority than is reading the Word of God (but both are inappropriate). In the former case, the authority is more clearly being exercised - in the latter, it is almost certainly the case that the selection of the text is the pastor's doing, and the woman is merely reading the words so selected. It's hard for me to see how if leading the congregation in prayer is permissible that reading Scripture (and even expositing Scripture) is not.

You have a point worth considering there, Todd, even if I'm still not sure that I agree. I have a difficult time calling it "usurpation" if an elder has asked her if she would pray, but I understand your point. What would you say if the prayer was pre-written by the pastor or another elder? (We've done this in our church.)

What if the sermon is pre-written by the pastor, and the woman is asked to deliver it?

 

[raekwon]

But it is leading of the whole body in prayer - her word choices are the words of the congregation - and for a woman to step into this role is completely contrary to the proscription of women standing in roles of authority in the church.

Of the two, I think leading corporate prayer is much more clearly a usurpation of authority than is reading the Word of God (but both are inappropriate). In the former case, the authority is more clearly being exercised - in the latter, it is almost certainly the case that the selection of the text is the pastor's doing, and the woman is merely reading the words so selected. It's hard for me to see how if leading the congregation in prayer is permissible that reading Scripture (and even expositing Scripture) is not.

You have a point worth considering there, Todd, even if I'm still not sure that I agree. I have a difficult time calling it "usurpation" if an elder has asked her if she would pray, but I understand your point. What would you say if the prayer was pre-written by the pastor or another elder? (We've done this in our church.)

What if the sermon is pre-written by the pastor, and the woman is asked to deliver it?

Then that's the authoritative proclamation and exposition of God's Word, and thus prohibited. Obviously.

My question was an honest one, though.

 

[Grymir]

Yes. It's prohibited.

That would be my understanding.

me too.

The phenomenon of women reading Scripture seems to flow from the idea that everyone has to be "involved" somehow; that God wouldn't want us to worship without having the opportunity to "take part" in worship. Somehow it is no longer enough to hear the lovely Word of God read by the elders of the church, to sing together, to be led in adoration, confession, thanksgiving and supplication, and to hear that precious Word faithfully preached. Somehow we have decided that I, TOO have to get up front and "use my gifts". It's truly a case of our own arrogance and sense of autonomy playing out. This is what has bred instances of little Johnny playing his drum (cute as that might be, it's got NO place in the gathered worship of the church), and every Tom, Dick and Harriet reading scripture.

Isn't worshipping together under the care of God's ordained undershepherds sufficient "participation"? Apparently not.

This is sooo true!! Only the Pastor or Elder should read scripture. They are speaking for God to the congregation.

I don't even let others read in my Sunday School class. One person only should read the scripture (in this case, me, the teacher), not everybody. People's minds tend to wander when different people read. It should be clear and authoritative.

And that's the way it is - Grymir

 

[toddpedlar]

You have a point worth considering there, Todd, even if I'm still not sure that I agree. I have a difficult time calling it "usurpation" if an elder has asked her if she would pray, but I understand your point. What would you say if the prayer was pre-written by the pastor or another elder? (We've done this in our church.)

What if the sermon is pre-written by the pastor, and the woman is asked to deliver it?

Then that's the authoritative proclamation and exposition of God's Word, and thus prohibited. Obviously.

My question was an honest one, though.

And mine was also. The point was to illustrate that it's not what is being delivered that is objectionable, but the person doing the delivery. The authority expressed or held in preaching and the authority expressed or held in leading the congregation in corporate prayer are each expressed and held by the person actually doing the leading - and do not lie a text which is merely read.

If one views leading the congregation in prayer as an authoritative function, then it matters not who wrote the prayer. The argument against a woman reading a printed prayer is the same as the argument against a woman reading a printed sermon. To preach or to lead the congregation in prayer are both functions that bear authority and must therefore be done only by those in rightful positions of authority.

If, on the other hand, one views leading the congregation in prayer as a NON-authoritative function, then it ought not to matter who wrote the prayer.

Since I hold the former opinion, I don't care who composed the prayer - it's not allowed.