1948 saw the return of Israel

[Abd_Yesua_alMasih]

There was a discussion on a forum for the local university Christian group which I attend. Someone said something which interested me and I wanted to know what you guys thought about it, what I should reply with etc... I will quote the whole statement. I wanted to paraphrase it but he seemed to have done a good job himself.

OK,
here's something in an appendix of a book I've got (The Third Millennium by Paul Meier). I'll summarize it as best as I can.

In the Torah Moses wrote (Lev 26:18 and elsewhere) that when Israel sinned greatly God would allow calamity to come their way. He would, however, give them a chance to repent and if they didn't then the punishment would be multiplied by 7.

IN Ezekiel 4:3-6 a 430 year exile is decreed for Israel.

The first 70 years of this were in Babylon (Jeremiah 25:11)

Take the remaining 360 years multiply by 7 gives us 2520 years.

The author says that in prophecy the years are to counted in years of 360 days, and when this is calculated from the date of Cyrus' decree to return to Jerusalem (536BC), there are exactly 2520 prophetc years of 360 days (or 907,200 days in total) to May 14, 1948 - the date of the creation of the modern state of Israel.

I don't know how much (if anything) we should read into this.

But it does present a possiblity of viewing the modern state of Israel as analogous to the ancient kingdom, without necessarily approving of all (or any) of their behaviour.

What do you guys think? I did not want to accept this until someone else looked at it and I had time to think.

 

[ReformedWretch]

My problem is this, like the bible code, you can come up with formula's to say just about ANYTHING you want them to say. The Jahovah Witnesses are GREAT at it!

 

[Anton Bruckner]

Fraser give that student a copy of J. Marcellus Kik's book, "An Eschatology of Victory"

Modern Day Israel has no bearings on the Bible and Eschatology. We are currently living in the millennium, where Jesus rules with a rod of iron. Modern Day Israel is an unbelieving nation along with many others and they are held to the righteous standard of God, which they violate. And if they do not repent they will go the way of their savage muslim neighbors when God brings the hammer down.

Likewise America and all nations.

 

[Blueridge Believer]

This piece came from an independent church down in N.C that has a pretty good insight into this in my opinion.

Midnight Cry Ministries
THE END
by C. Parker Thomas







"And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

"And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you,

"For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." Matt. 24:1-5

It is obvious from the scriptures that the disciples associated the end of the world with the second coming of Christ. Although Jesus went into a lengthy account of the things that would happen in the interim period between his first coming and his second coming, there is no suggestion that there would be a thousand years, plus a seven year tribulation, plus a little season between his second coming and the end of the world.

To the contrary, Matt. 24, by spirit and letter, teaches just the opposite. When it refers to his actual coming, the message is one of warning and urgency to be prepared for that day because it will come suddenly and there will be no more time left. This is also the message and tenor of many other scriptures in the Old and the New Testaments. Isa. 24:17-20, Mal. 4:1, Luke 17:28-30, Matt. 24:37-39, I Thess. 5:1-4, II Thess. 1:7-10 and II Peter 3:1-14.

The things he enumerated were characteristic of the entire age that would climax in his coming with power and great glory. Matt. 24:30, II Thess. 1:7-10. And it is obvious from a casual reading of Matthew 24 that all these things would lead up to this final cataclysmic event. His actual coming will be suddenly and without warning for most of the world.



STRONG DELUSION

Except for those who make the midnight cry and a very few who will be awakened at the midnight hour (Matt. 25:6-7), the world as a whole will be almost totally unprepared and indifferent to his coming. "Eating, drinking, marrying and giving in marriage" doesn't sound like people who are facing doomsday. Matt. 24:37-39.

In fact, it sounds like a people who expect the world to go on indefinitely. This sounds exactly like those Peter referred to who would be saying, "Where is the promise of his coming, for since the fathers fell asleep all things continue as they were." II Peter 3:3-4.

Man's mind will be so oriented through the delusive influence of Satan that he will actually believe Jesus' coming couldn't take place at this particular time. No doubt general unbelief in the reality of all things pertaining to Christ will be the greatest reason for man's indifference. Luke 18:8. This is why his coming will be as a thief in the night or in such an hour as they think not. Matt. 24:44.

The road to darkness is rejection of light. John 12:35-36. This was man's condition before the flood, Gen. 6:5, and it will be man's condition at the coming of Christ. Strong delusion is sent of God when men love not the truth that they might be saved. II Thess. 2:10-12.

Since the cardinal truth of the Bible has to do with the revelation of Jesus Christ the propitiation for man's sin its purpose is to enlighten and bring to faith the lost sheep. Although many will hear the message from an audible standpoint, only the sheep will hear his voice and take his word seriously. John 10:27.

Were it not for the religious content of strong delusion, it wouldn't be strong delusion. I personally believe the vast majority of religious people are lost.

After going on the air in three different states I have listened to several different preachers on the radio these past few weeks and, frankly, I didn't begin to realize the spiritual desolation that exists.

This is also true of most of the television preachers. And the sad thing is that those who listen to this garbage don't know the difference. It is not only sickening but it will make those sick who listen to it day after day. I believe this is the day Isaiah pointed to when he said, "For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so there is no place clean." Isa. 28:8

The motivation of most of this type ministry is so transparent and obvious that I don't see how in the world people can be deceived by it. However, let's not forget the condition of the scribes and Pharisees when God sent John the Baptist into this world. Jesus said, "But woe unto you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in." Matt. 23:13.

In the midst of all that religious delusion and hypocrisy, John was the voice in the wilderness. How can we expect anything different at his second coming? Read all of Matt. 23 which gives you a picture of what Jesus saw in them.



LAST OVERTURE

John's ministry followed by Jesus and the early church was God's last overture to apostate Israel. Were it not for a very small remnant, even in Isaiah's day, God would have judged the nation even as he did Sodom and Gomorrah. Isa. 1:1-15.

The record of Israel set forth in the Bible is one of apostasy, from king to king and generation to generation. Elijah was so depressed over this apostate condition until he felt he was the only person left who wanted God. This is why he said, "I have been very jealous for the Lord God of hosts: for the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altar, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only am left; and they seek my life, to take it away." I Kings 19:10.

In fact, there has never been but a very small remnant of people capable of hearing the voice of the Lord. This is true of the Jewish nation as well as the Gentile world. Rom. 9:1-9, 27-29, Rom. 11:5, Matt. 7:13-14, Luke 13:23-24.

Although great multitudes have heard the gospel in this dispensation and have been influenced to outwardly embrace professing Christianity, there has been very little evidence of vital reality. Only the sheep have heard his voice and followed him. John 10:27.

The ministry of Christ and his disciples before Pentecost was to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matt. 10:5-6, 15:24. In reference to the outcalling of the Gentiles, Jesus said, "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." John 10:16.

The traditional concept held by Christendom that the nation Israel will be converted during the tribulation period is false. This return of the Jew to Palestine so far as being a fulfillment of scripture is concerned is one of many lying signs and wonders. The truth is, most of the Jewish people are still scattered among the nations of the earth.

THE TRUE JEW

The true Jew is spiritual and not natural and always has been. Rom. 2:28-29 says, "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

Paul makes a distinction between the spiritual or true Israelite and natural Israel in Romans 9:6-7. "...For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called."

The true seed of Abraham, those who partake of the covenanted promise, were not natural but spiritual. This is the meaning of Galations 3:29 which says, "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

The dispensationalists who say that the Jew is the wife of Jehovah and the Gentile church is the bride of Christ are in great error. The true Jew looked forward to the cross and we Gentiles look back to the cross.

All, whether Jew or Gentile, are saved by the same grace of God and are brought together in one in Christ Jesus. To the Ephesians Paul said, "Now, therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

"And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

"In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

"In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." Eph. 2:19-22.

That certainly makes it plain that there will be no division in the body of Christ. The devil through misguided man is the author of division and confusion. I Cor. 14:33, Gal. 3:26-29. This should make it plain and simple to anyone where the multitudes of denominations, sects, cults and religions come from.



APOSTATE CHRISTIANITY

The ecumenical movement that thinks they can make all these divergent brands one is not just a fantasy, it is a delusion. It is part of Satan's counterfeit, a conspiracy to make one world in religion, race, government and economy with him (Satan) the head of it all. It's like some mad scientist taking rattlesnakes, cobras, cottonmouths, coral snakes and copperheads and trying to make them one harmless reptile that he can manipulate and use as he wishes.

Present day professing Christianity is another tower of Babel whose tongues have been confounded by God Almighty. The spirit that motivated the original builders is the same motivating force behind most of the world's religion. Gen. 11:1-9.

Any union or facade of togetherness is a Satanic counterfeit. The seven women of Isaiah 4:1 will continue to eat their own bread (doctrine) and wear their own apparel (self-righteousness). They want his name to give them outward respectability but not his word and righteousness.

The end of the great whore, mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, is to be burned with fire. Rev. 17:1-18. As far as I am concerned there are many signs pointing to this day of judgment. The fact that professing Christianity thinks they have all these things figured out doctrinally is part of the delusion of II Thess. 2:11-12.

As apostate Israel was blind to Christ’s first coming, apostate Christianity is blind to his second coming. It is this blindness that enables him to come as a thief in the night. Matt. 24:44, I Thess. 5:1-3, II Peter 3:10, Rev. 3:3 and 16:15.



APOSTATE ISRAEL

This traditional concept of Israel's being restored and converted as a nation is false. As a nation Israel has never been converted. It has always been a very small remnant. The same is true of the Gentile world.

Israel's rebellion against God was long and often. Their religious form with their sacrifices and oblations and burning of incense had become an abominable mockery. Isa. 66:1-4. Prophet after prophet sent from God had warned them of this condition. Through the prophet Amos the Lord said, "I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies.

"Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offering, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts.

"Take thou away from me the noise of thy song; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols.

"But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream." Amos 5:21-24.

When it comes to such scriptural pronouncements as these, religious people simply ignore them and continue to quote their traditional sayings, "Israel is God's chosen people and Palestine is the Holy Land. And those who stand by and bless Israel will be favored and blessed of God."

It is such blindness as this that has caused our nation to pour billions of dollars into the military defense and establishment of Israel. Many of our political and religious leaders think this is our sacred duty. This includes presidents, senators, congressmen and many of our well known evangelists and spiritual leaders.

Then we have the Holy Land tour people, including many preachers who make merchandise of simple souls who think one of life's greatest honors is to tour the Holy Land. Of course the Arabs, Jews and some Americans are making an easy fast buck showing them the supposedly sacred historic sites.

One radio preacher was asking his listeners to send in their names and prayer requests with their offerings to pay his way to the Holy Land. He promised to lay his hands of faith and power on their prayer requests and then bury them in the soil of Palestine.

Several years ago one enterprising radio evangelist went on one of these tours and just happened to take a suitcase filled with linen into the tomb of Jesus to pray. Lo and behold, later on when he opened the suitcase the linen had turned blood red! And of course he was sending out little squares cut out of this linen to all who would send in an offering of ten dollars or more.

Many radio listeners have received holy water from the Jordan River, chips of wood from the cross or an olive tree in the garden. Prayer pacts, pictures of the rapture, anointed handkerchiefs, tapes, books and special Bibles are just a few of the many wonderful things you can get by sending in your offerings.

Coming over into the New Testament Jesus said, "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchers, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

"Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchers of the righteous.

"And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

"Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

"Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

"Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

"Wherefore, behold I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

"That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

"Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

"Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

"For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." Matt. 23:27-39.

The spirit of error and rebellion is ministered from generation to generation and goes all the way back to self-righteous Cain and the murder of his brother Abel. Stephen said to those who stoned him to death, "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ear, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." Acts 7:51.

Although God is long suffering, he will not forever condone and deal with any race or people or individual who resist his love and mercy. What God said before the flood is also true of mankind before the second coming of Christ. "...My Spirit shall not always strive with man..." Gen. 6:3.

As far as I am concerned what Jesus said is still true and their house is left unto them desolate. Paul made a clear distinction between earthly Jerusalem which is desolate and in bondage and Jerusalem from above which is free. Gal. 4:19-31.

True Christianity, whether Jew or Gentile, is always hated and persecuted by the natural religious man. Paul made note of this in his first epistle to the church of Thessalonica. "For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

"Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

"Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost." I Thess. 2:14-16.

Are we going to believe the Old Testament references to Israel, Jerusalem and Zion as applying strictly to an earthly people? Can't we see that these references are types which point to a spiritual people and their greater fulfillment has to do with God's people, Jew and Gentile, the everlasting covenant and eternal things?

God's purpose from the beginning was to save and share his glory with a people from all nations, kindreds and tongues and make them one in Christ Jesus. Rev. 5-9. And this is exactly what He has been doing. With the out-calling of the Gentiles the work will be over. Eph. 2:14-22 says, "For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

"And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

"And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

"For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

"And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

"In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord;

"In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."



GOD'S WRATH

What happened to the Jew as a whole is what is happening to the Gentile world. Soon it will be said of both "...for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost," I Thess. 2:16.

God has manifested his wrath in many ways at various times; against individuals, against cities, against nations and finally it will be the entire world.

The flood, Gen. 6:5-7, is an example of his wrath. So is Sodom and Gomorrah and the rebellion and conspiracy of Korah. Gen. 18 and 19, Num. 16:1-35. In fact the Bible is one example after another of God's wrath against wicked and rebellious men.

The first aspect of God's wrath which is seldom recognized is when he ceases to strive with man. Speaking of Israel in the wilderness, the Lord said, "Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest." Heb. 3:10-11.

The most terrible and final aspect of God's wrath begins with destruction of the earth, the judgment of man and finally the lake of fire.

This awful day is pictured in Rev. 6:12-17. "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

"And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

"And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

"And the kings of earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

"And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

"For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Read also Rev. 11:15-19 and 20:11-15.

This idea of apostate Christianity that Israel continues to be God’s holy or chosen people and Palestine the holy land is completely contrary to what the scriptures actually teach. Anyone with a little knowledge of the Bible knows that Sodom and Gomorrah became synonymous for wickedness or moral corruption. Gen. 13:13.

The sexual perversion of sodomy looked upon the by the Lord as a vile evil was also condemned by the law. Those guilty of sodomy were not allowed to live in Israel. Deut. 23:17, I Kings 14:24, I Kings 22:46.

Did you know that Isaiah called Israel Sodom and Gomorrah? Isa. 1:9-10. Did you know that Jerusalem where the Lord was crucified is referred to as Sodom and Egypt in Rev. 11:8? Sodom actually is used as a type of people or place that God has abandoned to judgment. Jer. 23:14, 49:17-18, Amos 4:11-12.

Matt. 11:20-24 says, "Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:

"Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

"But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

"And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

"But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee."

Only one thing is considered worse than such moral corruption as existed in Sodom and Gomorrah and that is rebellion against God. In fact, moral decay such as homosexuality, fornication, incest and all types of spiritual perversion is one of the main characteristics of a society before judgment.



THE WORLD TODAY

We have no conception of how our world has become such a cesspool of iniquity. Gays are no longer in their closets. They not only justify their perversion but they brazenly demand acceptance and respect by society. And much of our political establishment is catering to them.

A young man that I have known for years was just telling me about an experience he and a buddy had not long ago. They went into a bar and were almost immediately surrounded by what they, at first thought were women. But, as the supposed women gathered around them and began to fondle them they realized it was men dressed in women's clothing, wearing make-up and earrings.

This is not an isolated incident but is becoming more and more common in our country and the rest of the world. The recent T.V. movie portraying an incestuous relationship between a father and his daughter is far more common than most of us would dare realize. These things are symptomatic of a condition in people who have not only been abandoned by God but they have been turned over to a reprobate mind in the process. Rom. 1:18-32, II Thess. 2:10-12.

When gay preachers start churches so they can minister to gay congregations, people with a conscience need to get out of Sodom before the fire and brimstone begins to fall. This is an example of spiritual and moral perversion joined together. I think spiritual perversion is worse because it is more subtle. It is easier to hide under a self righteous cloak of religion.

The traditional concept of end time events clouds the whole issue of Christ's return and what will really take place. Things not understood are the falling away, the man of sin, the destiny of the Jew, the tribulation and the binding and loosing of Satan plus the millennium.

Failure to understand these things keeps professing Christians from an awareness of the imminent return of Christ and the end of the world. This spiritual blindness is a masterpiece of satanic deception. This is why Jesus will come as a thief in the night or in such an hour as they think not.

The most tragic aspect of this delusion is that men think they will still have time after Jesus comes. This doctrinal error causes them to plan on a tomorrow that will never come.

The Jewish nation, as such, will never be converted. There will be no golden thousand years of peace and tranquillity with Jesus reigning from an earthly Jerusalem.

Jesus will reign, but it will be from his throne in heavenly Jerusalem and it will be for eternity and not a thousand years. Hopefully, Jews, as well as Gentiles, may still be converted as individuals. But this becomes more and more difficult as Satan's delusive power increases its hold upon the minds of men. The Gentile age is also coming to a close in a state of apostasy in the same manner that the Jewish dispensation ended.

The closing of the church age will usher in eternity, Jew and Gentile will have had their opportunity.



SEVENTH TRUMPET

Beyond doubt, the sounding of the seventh trumpet comes within a time frame in which many things will take place in rapid sequence and some simultaneously. The sounding of the seventh trumpet will finish the mystery of God. These are things sovereignly hid in Daniel's day till the time of the end. Dan. 12:4.

The mystery of God is any truth reserved or hidden until the appointed time. I personally believe it is truth that will clear up the confusion and error that has infiltrated the church during the falling away which began not too long after Pentecost. It is because of error and tradition that the organized church system today is a lifeless, religious form.

The evening time light will also clear up many types and shadows that we have seen through a glass darkly. I Cor. 12:9-12, Zech. 14:6-7. the consummation of the ages will bring about a restoration of all things climaxing in new heavens and new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness. II Peter 3:13.

Notice in Rev. 10:2 that the mighty angel which comes down from heaven has in his hand a little book that is open. This means the book is no longer closed. The mystery of God will be finished during the days of the voice of the seventh angel. Rev. 10:7. This is the same book that was closed in the hand of him that sat on the throne in Rev. 5:1-10.

The Lamb alone who had been slain was worthy to take the book and open it. No man in heaven or earth or under the earth was worthy. We know this Lamb slain from the foundation of the world is our Lord Jesus Christ. Rev. 13:8.

The reason there has been such a mixture of doctrinal extremes in professing Christianity is because the natural religious man has presumptuously tried to open the book apart from Christ the head. This is impossible because everything that relates to God and his kingdom is a mystery. When Satan through man replaced Christ as head of the church, mystery Babylon was the result. Rev. 17:5.

The following mysteries cannot possibly be understood apart from the revelation of Jesus Christ. The mystery of the kingdom. Mar 4:11. The mystery of God's wisdom. I Cor. 2:7. The mystery of God's will. Eph. 1:9. The mystery of Christ. Eph. 3:4. The mystery of Christ and the church. Eph. 5:32. The mystery of the gospel. Eph. 6:19. The mystery of God. Col 2:2. The mystery of iniquity. II Thess. 2:7. The mystery of the faith. I Tim. 3:9. The mystery of godliness. I Tim. 3:16. Mystery Babylon the Great. Rev. 17:5.

Everything, visible and invisible, pertaining to both realms is a mystery without the revelation of Christ. This is why the Father said in Matt. 17:5, "...This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him."

The revelation of Christ symbolized by the opening of this book is simply an understanding of God's word that enables the church to function as the body of Christ in the earth. The beginning of the sounding of the seventh trumpet is the restoration of this truth lost through the apostasy that started not too long after Pentecost.

There must be a restoration of the church before Jesus comes. We might say this restoration is a prelude to his coming. During this apostate period the church has been sustained by times of refreshing. Acts 3:18-23.

The climax or end of the sounding of this trumpet is the literal coming of Christ, rapture of the saints and destruction of the whole created universe. At this point in time the messenger to John on the Isle of Patmos said, "...Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and him that is holy, let him be holy still.

"And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me to give every man according as his work shall be." Rev. 22:10-12.

It is significant that it is the prophecy of the book and not the book itself that is not to be sealed at this time. This is actually the juncture or point timewise between time and eternity. Why prophecy? Because the very last thing on God's prophetic timetable is being fulfilled. Prophecy, as far as man and the world is concerned will be a thing of the past.

There will be no more preaching. The church will have served its purpose. All types and shadows will be fulfilled. This means that the wicked or unrighteous must remain as they are. And, of course, the righteous or holy will remain as they are. Actually, it is the end.

As far as the world of mankind is concerned, they will not see these things. In fact, most of the religious world will not see or understand what is taking place. Traditional doctrines have blinded them to the simple teaching of God's word.

This is why Christ's return will be as a thief in the night. II Peter 3:10-13 gives us the exact picture of how it will take place. Why can't we believe it?

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

"Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

"Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

"Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." II Peter 3:10-13.

 

[Romans922]

Hebrews 11:

8By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God.


13These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.




I don't know how much more clearer that can get.

 

[Abd_Yesua_alMasih]

Is there a problem with the internal logic or the maths or anything else with his statement? Is a prophetic year really that long etc?

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

The view that the Bible teaches a gathering and restoration of the Jews to their homeland is not confined to modern dispensationalists. It was a hallmark of Puritan eschatology. Below are some references which may be of interest:

The English Protestant Era

The path that led to the widespread belief in the end-time restoration of the Jews to Israel started with the study of the Bible, first in the original languages, followed by the influence of the newly acquired English translations.[23] When both scholars and laymen alike, for the first time in the history of the church, had the text of Scripture (both Old and New Testaments) more readily available, it led to greater study, a more literal interpretation and a greater awareness of the Israel of the Old Testament. This provided the atmosphere in which a major shift occurred in England (also on the Continent to a lesser degree) from medieval Jew-hatred, which led to the expulsion of all Jews from Britain in 1290, to their invitation under Cromwell to return in 1655. " From such a context and from among this people," notes Douglas Culver, " now growing more and more intimate with things Jewish, the early millenarian protagonists for the restoration of the Jews to their Palestinian homeland arose." [24] However, it would be a tough road to get to the point where belief in a Jewish restoration to their ancient homeland would become so widespread.

It wasn' t just any group of English protestants that provided a fertile soil for Jewish Restorationist doctrines, it was out of the English Puritan movement that this belief sprung. " Starting with the Puritan ascendancy," notes Tuchman, " the movement among the English for the return of the Jews to Palestine began." [25] Why the Puritan? Puritans were not just dissenters, they were a Protestant sect that valued the Old Testament to an unprecedented degree in their day. Tuchman tells us:

They began to feel for the Old Testament a preference that showed itself in all their sentiments and habits. They paid a respect to the Hebrew language that they refused to the language of their Gospels and of the epistles of Paul. They baptized their children by the names not of Christian saints but of Hebrew patriarchs and warriors. They turned the weekly festival by which the church had from primitive times commemorated the resurrection of her Lord, into the Jewish Sabbath. They sought for precedents to guide their ordinary conduct in the books of Judges and Kings.[26]

One of the first Englishman to put forth the view that the Jews should be restored to the land of Israel was a scholar who had taken two degrees from Cambridge named Francis Kett. In 1585 he had published a book entitled The Glorious and Beautiful Garland of Mans Glorification Containing the Godly Misterie of Heavenly Jerusalem (one of the shorter titles of the day). While his book primarily dealt with other matters, Kett did have a section in which he mentioned " the notion of Jewish national return to Palestine." [27] This notion, which some think was likely gaining many followers,[28] was deemed heretical to the English establishment of the day and Rev. Kett was quickly burned at the stake on January 14, 1589, for expressing such views about the Jews return to their land, an idea he claimed to have received from reading the Bible.[29] About the same time as Kett, strict Calvinist, Edmund Bunny (1540- 1619) taught the Jewish restoration to Palestine in a couple of books: The Scepter of Ivday (1584) and The Coronation of David (1588).[30]

As the 1600s arrived, a flurry of books advocating Jewish restoration to their land began to appear. Thomas Draxe released in 1608 The Worldes Resurrection: On the general calling of the Jews, A familiar Commentary upon the eleventh Chapter of Saint Paul to the Romaines, according to the sense of Scripture. Draxe argued for Israel' s restoration based upon his Calvinism and Covenant Theology.[31]

Two great giants of their era were Thomas Brightman (1552- 1607), (likely a Postmillennialist) and Premillennialist Joseph Mede (1586- 1638) who both wrote boldly of a future restoration of Israel. Brightman' s work, Revelation of the Revelation appeared in 1609 and told " how the Jews will return from the areas North and East of Palestine to Jerusalem and how the Holy Land and the Jewish Christian church will become the centre of a Christian world." [32] Brightman wrote: " What, shall they return to Jerusalem again? There is nothing more certain; the prophets do everywhere confirm it." [33] Mede' s contribution was released in 1627 in Latin [34] and in 1642 in English as The Key of the Revelation.[35] The father of English premillennialism was also an ardent advocate of Jewish restoration to their homeland. Momentum was certainly building toward widespread acceptance of English belief in Jewish restoration, but a few bumps in the road still lay ahead.

Giles Fletcher (1549- 1611), a fellow at King' s College, Cambridge and Queen Elizabeth' s ambassador to Russia wrote a work advocating Restorationism. Fletcher' s book, Israel Redux: or the Restauration of Israel; or the Restauration of Israel exhibited in two short treatises (shortened title) was published posthumously by the Puritan divine Samuel Lee in 1677.[36] Fletcher cites a letter in his book from 1606 as he argues for the return of the Jews to their land.[37] Fletcher repeatedly taught the " certainty of their return in God' s due time." [38]

A key proponent for Israel' s future restoration was Henry Finch (1558-1625) who wrote a seminal work on the subject in 1621, called The World' s Resurrection or The Calling of the Jewes. A Present to Judah and the Children of Israel that Ioyned with Him, and to Ioseph (that valiant tribe of Ephraim) and all the House of Israel that Ioyned with Him.[39] Finch, at the time of the publication of his book was a member of Parliament and the most highly respected legal scholars in England at the time. " The book had been published for a matter only of weeks when the roof caved in on the author' s head," notes Culver. " In the persecution which ensued, Finch lost his reputation, his possessions, his health- all precipitated by his belief in Jewish national restoration." [40] " Finch' s argument may be considered the first genuine plan for Restoration." [41] Finch taught that the biblical " passages which speak of a return of these people to their own land, their conquest of enemies and their rule of the nations are to be taken literally, not allegorically as of the Church." [42] King James of England was offended by Finch' s statement that all nations would become subservient to national Israel at the time of her restoration.[43] Finch and his publisher were quickly arrested when his book was released by the High Commissioner (a creation of King James), and examined.[44] Finch was striped of his status and possessions and then died a few years latter. " The doctrine of the restoration of the Jews continued to be expounded in England, evolving according to the insight of each exponent, and finally playing a role in Christian Zionistic activities in the latter part of the nineteenth and in the first of the twentieth centuries." [45]

Many Puritans of the seventeenth century taught the restoration of the Jews to the Holy Land.[46] One of the greatest Puritan theologians in England was John Owen (1616- 1683) who wrote, " The Jews shall be gathered from all parts of the earth where they are scattered, and brought home into their homeland." [47] Peter Toon, speaking of Puritans of this era says:

Of course, those who expected the conversion of the Jews added to Romans 11 other proof-texts from the Old and New Testament. Furthermore, a large proportion of those who took " Israel" in Romans 11:25 ff. to speak of Jews, also taught that there would be a restoration of Jews to their ancient homeland in the Near East either after, or at the same time as, their conversion to Christ.[48]

There was a similar Restorationist movement throughout Europe where the Reformation was strongest, but on a smaller scale. There were a number of Restorationists in Holland during the time of the Puritan movement. Isaac de la Peyrere (1594- 1676), who served as the French Ambassador to Denmark, " wrote a book wherein he argued for a restoration of the Jews to Israel without conversion to Christianity." [49] In 1655, Paul Felgenhauever, wrote Good News for Israel in which he taught that there would be the " permanent return of the Jews to their own country eternally bestowed upon them by God through the unqualified promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob." [50] The Dane, Holger Paulli (1644- 1714) " believed wholeheartedly in the Jewish Return to the Holy Land, as a condition for the Second Coming." [51] He even " lobbied the kings of Denmark, England, and France to go and conquer Palestine from the Ottomans in order that the Jews could regain their nation." [52] Frenchman, Marquis de Langallerie (1656- 1717), schemed with the Turkish Ambassador in the Hague on a plan defeat the Pope and trade the papal empire for a return of the Jews to the Holy Land. Langallerie was arrested in Hamburg, tried and convicted of high treason and died in prison a year later.[53] Other European Restorationists of the era include: Isaac Vossius, Hugo Grotius, Gerhard John Vossius, David Blondel, Vasover Powel, Joseph Eyre, Edward Whitaker, and Charles Jerran.[54]

James Saddington lists the following seventeenth century English individuals as holding to Restorationist views: John Milton, John Bunyan, Roger Williams, John Sadler and Oliver Cromwell.[55] " The doctrine of the restoration of the Jews continued to be expounded in England, evolving according to the insight of each exponent," concludes Ehle, " and finally playing a role in Christian Zionistic activities in the latter part of the nineteenth and in the first of the twentieth centuries." [56]

Colonial America

Since the American colonies, especially in Puritan New England, were settled primarily by Englishmen who brought with them to the New World many of the same issues and beliefs that were circulating in the motherland, it is not surprising to find many zealous advocates in America for the restoration of the Jews. Perhaps the most influential of the early Puritan ministers in New England was John Cotton, who, following the postmillennialism of Brightman held to the restoration of the Jews to the Holy Land.[57] According to Ehle, in addition to John Cotton (1584- 1652), early Restorationists included: John Davenport (1597- 1670), William Hooke (1601- 1678), John Eliot (1604- 1690), Samuel Willard (1640- 1707), and Samuel Sewall (1652- 1730).[58] Ephraim Huit, a Cambridge trained early minister in Windsor, Connecticut believed that the Jews would be regathered to their homeland in 1650.[59]

One of the standout advocates of the restoration doctrine was Increase Mather (1639- 1723), the son of Richard and father of Cotton. Increase Mather wrote over 100 books in his life and was a president of Harvard. His first work was The Mystery of Israel' s Salvation, which went through about a half dozen revisions during his life.[60] His support of the national restoration of Israel to her land in the future was typical of American Colonial Puritans and was generally widespread. Ehle notes the following:

The first salient school of thought in American history that advocated a national restoration of the Jews to Palestine was resident in the first native-born generation at the close of the seventeenth century in which Increase Mather played a dominate role. The men who held this view were Puritans, . . . From that time on the doctrine of restoration may be said to have become endemic to American culture.[61]

" It was Increase Mather' s view that this final and greatest reformation of the Christian world would be led by the Jewish people ensuing upon their restoration to the Holy Land." [62]

From the earliest times, American Christianity has always tilted toward support of the restoration of national Israel in the Holy Land. American Christians, when compared with Euro-Asian Christianity has always had a philo-Semitic disposition. Thus, it is not surprising that this tradition continues today, especially in dispensational circles.

Source

GOUGE, WILLIAM (Publisher), Sir Henry Finch (Author)
The Calling of the Jews. A Present to Judah and the Children of Israel that joyned with him, and to Joseph (the valiant tribe of Ephraim) and all the house of Israel that joyned with him. The Lord give them grace, that they may return and seek Jehovah their God, and David their King, in these latter days. There is prefixed an Epistle unto them, written for their sake in the Hebrew tongue, and translated into English. Published by William Gouge, B. of D. and Preacher of God's Word in Blackefryers. London. 1621.

This book was apparently written by Sir Henry Finch, a legal advisor to King James I of England. It is noteworthy because it argues that, according to Bible prophecy, the Jews will reoccupy the promised land (i.e., Palestine, etc.) before the Second Coming of Christ. But this is not a proto-dispensationalist perspective. In fact, since the book was published by the famous Westminster Divine William Gouge, it is clear that this view was accepted by at least some of the best Presbyterian ministers of the Second Reformation.

The arguments presented here concern the future restoration of Israel. Near the beginning of the book, the author lists some rules "for the better understanding of the prophecies of this kind" (p. 6). Among these rules are the following:

"Where Israel, Judah, Zion, Jerusalem, &c. are named in this argument, the Holy Ghost meaneth not the spiritual Israel, or Church of God collected of the Gentiles, no nor of the Jews and Gentiles both (for each of these have their promises severally and apart) but Israel properly descended out of Jacob's loins" (p. 6).

"The same judgment is to be made of their returning to their land and ancient seats, the conquest of their foes, the fruitfulness of their soil, the glorious Church they shall erect in the land itself of Judah, their bearing rule far and near. These and such like are not allegories, setting forth in terrene similitudes or deliverance through Christ (whereof those were types and figures) but meant really and literally of the Jews" (p. 6).

After stating his interpretive rules, Finch provides a brief commentary on numerous passages (from both the Old and New Testaments) dealing with the future of the Jews. Thereafter he provides a relatively extensive commentary on Isaiah chapters 24, 25, 26, and 27. That is followed by extensive commentary on Daniel 9:24-27, and on the entire book of Hosea.

This is an important book for those who want to know the future role that the Jews will play in God's plan according to Historicist Postmillennialism. At some point they will turn to Christ, and this will be a significant moment in world history. The prophecies yet to be fulfilled by the Jewish people point toward a glorious future for both them and the Gentile peoples.

241 pages.

Source

Iain Murray, The Puritan Hope:

One of the first developments in thought on prophecy came as further attention was given to the Scriptures bearing on the future of the Jews. Neither Luther nor Calvin saw a future general conversion of the Jews promised in Scripture; some of their contemporaries, however, notably Martin Bucer and Peter Martyr, who taught at Cambridge and Oxford respectively in the reign of Edward VI, did understand the Bible to teach a future calling of the Jews. In this view they were followed by Theodore Beza, Calvin’s successor at Geneva. As early as 1560 four years before Calvin’s death, the English and Scots refugee Protestant leaders who produced the Geneva Bible, express this belief in their marginal notes on Romans chapter 11, verses 15 and 26. On the latter verse they comment, ‘He sheweth that the time shall come that the whole. nation of the Jews, though not every one particularly, shall be joined to the church of Christ.’ .

The first volume in English to expound this conviction at some length was the translation of Peter Martyr’s Commentary upon Romans, published in London in 1568.The probability is strong that Martyr’s careful exposition of the eleventh chapter prepared the way for a general adoption amongst the English Puritans of a belief in the future conversion of the Jews. Closely linked as English Puritanism was to John Calvin it was the view contained in Martyr’s commentary which was received by the rising generation of students at Cambridge.

Among those students was Hugh Broughton (1549-1612) who had the distinction of being the first Englishman to propose going as a missionary to the Jews in the Near East, and also the first to propose the idea of translating the New Testament into Hebrew for the sake of the Jews. Broughton’s ardour for the conversion of the Jews found no sympathy, however, with the English bishops whom he had early offended by his Puritan leanings. Though given no preferment in the English Church he was so well known in the East on account of his learning that the Chief Rabbi of Constantinople wrote to him in 1599 and subsequently invited him to become a public teacher there! This early possibility of a mission to the Jews was thwarted by the Church authorities, but Broughton’s writings — of which the best known was probably his Commentary on Daniel, 1596 —stimulated further study of the whole question.

Broughton was too much an individualist ever to become a leader of the Puritan movement. Two years before he was ejected from his fellowship at Christ’s College, Cambridge, in 1579, William Perkins had entered the same college, a man whom we noted earlier as doing so much to influence the thinking of many who were to preach all over England. Perkins speaks plainly of a future conversion of the Jews: ‘The Lord saith, All the nations shall be blessed in Abraham: Hence I gather that the nation of the Jews shall be called, and converted to the participation of this blessing: when, and how, God knows: but that it shall be done before the end of the world we know.’ The same truth was opened by the succession of Puritan leaders at Cambridge who followed Perkins, including Richard Sibbes and Thomas Goodwin. In his famous book, The Bruised Reed, mentioned earlier in connection with Baxter’s conversion, Sibbes writes:

‘The Jews are not yet come in under Christ’s banner; but God, that hath persuaded Japhet to come into the tents of Shem, will persuade Shem to come into the tents of Japhet, Gen. 9.27. The “fulness of the Gentiles is not yet come in”, Rom. 11.25, but Christ, that hath the “utmost parts of the earth given him for his possession”, Psa. 2.8, will gather all the sheep his Father hath given him into one fold, that there may be one sheepfold and one shepherd, John 10. 16.

‘The faithful Jews rejoiced to think of the calling of the Gentiles; and why should not we joy to think of the calling of the Jews?’

This note of joy is significant. It had already been struck by Peter Martyr. If a widespread conversion of the Jews was yet to occur in the earth then the horizons of history were not, as Luther feared, wholly dark. Maintaining the truth that the great day for the Church would be the day of Christ’s appearing at the end of time, Sibbes nevertheless saw warrant for expecting what he calls ‘lesser days before that great day’. He continues:

‘As at the first coming of Christ, so at the overthrow of Anti-Christ, the conversion of the Jews, there will be much joy.... These days make way for that day. Whensoever prophecies shall end in performances, then shall be a day of joying and glorying in the God of our salvation for ever. And therefore in the Revelation where this Scripture is cited, Rev. 21.4, is meant the conversion of the Jews, and the glorious estate they shall enjoy before the end of the world. “We have waited for our God,” and now we enjoy him. Aye, but what saith the church there? “Come, Lord Jesus, come quickly.” There is yet another, “Come, Lord”, till we be in heaven.’

From the first quarter of the seventeenth century, belief in a future conversion of the Jews became commonplace among the English Puritans. In the late 1630’s, and in the national upheavals of the 1640’s — the period of the Civil Wars — the subject not infrequently was mentioned by Puritan leaders.

As a ground for hopefulness in regard to the prospects of Christ’s kingdom it was introduced in sermons before Parliament or on other public occasions by William Strong, William Bridge, George Gillespie and Robert Baillie, to name but a few. The fact that the two last-named were commissioners from the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland at the Westminster Assembly, which was convened by the English Parliament in 1643, is indicative of the agreement on this point between English and Scottish divines. Some of the rich doctrinal formularies which that Assembly produced, bear the same witness. The Larger Catechism, after the question, ‘What do we pray for in the second petition of the Lord’s Prayer?’ (Thy Kingdom come), answers: ‘We pray that the kingdom of sin and Satan may be destroyed, the gospel propagated throughout the world, the Jews called, the fulness of the Gentiles brought in ... that Christ would rule in our hearts here, and hasten the time of his second coming.’ The Directory for the Public Worship of God (section on Public Prayer before Sermon) stipulates in similar language that prayer be made ‘for the conversion of the Jews’.

This same belief concerning the future of the Jews is to be found very widely in seventeenth-century Puritan literature. It appears in the works of such well-known Puritans as John Owen, Thomas Manton and John Flavel, though the indices of nineteenth-century reprints of their works do not always indicate this. It is also handled in a rich array of commentaries, both folios and quartos — David Dickson on the Psalms, George Hutcheson on the Minor Prophets, Jeremiah Burroughs on Hosea, William Greenhill on Ezekiel, Elnathan Parr on Romans and James Durham on Revelation: a list which could be greatly extended.

Occasionally the subject became the main theme of a volume. Perhaps the first in order among these was The Calling of the Jews, published in 1621 by William Gouge, the eminent Puritan minister of Blackfriars, London; the author was a barrister, Sir Henry Finch. A slender work, Some Discourses upon the Point of the Conversion of the Jews, by Moses Wall, appeared in 1650, and nineteen years later Increase Mather, the New England divine of Boston, issued his work, The Mystery of Israel’s Salvation Explained and Applied. ‘That there shall be a general conversion of the Tribes of Israel is a truth which in some measure hath been known and believed in all ages of the Church of God, since the Apostles’ days….. Only in these late days, these things have obtained credit much more universally than heretofore.’ So Mather wrote in 1669.

Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot

From Wilhelmus a Brakel, The Christian's Reasonable Service (1700), Vol. IV:

Question: Will the Jewish nation always be a rejected nation, or will the entire nation yet come to repentence, believing and confessing that the Messiah is already come, and that Jesus is the Christ?
...
After the destruction of Jerusalem, the entire Jewish nation was dispersed and no longer has a specific residence. We are speaking here of this nation without distinction, and we believe that it will acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ -- the Messiah who was promised in the Old Testament and anticipated by the father. This is the general sentiment of of the theologians of all ages -- even Luther and papist theologians. There are, however, also those who doubt this, and some deny it. -- p. 510

One more question remains to be answered: Will the Jewish nation be gathered together again from all the regions of the world and from all the nations of the earth among which they have been dispersed? Will they come to and dwell in Canaan and all the lands promised to Abraham, and will Jerusalem be rebuilt?

We believe that these events will transpire. We deny, however, that the temple will be rebuilt, and that therein the previous mode of worship will be observed, which prior to Christ's coming was of a typifying nature and would then be of a reflective nature. We also deny that Israel will then have dominion over the entire world -- and other such things which the Jews imagine and some Christians dream about. -- pp. 530-531

 

[BJClark]

VirginiaHuguenot,

Thank you for sharing that, it was a very good read.

 

[Puritan Sailor]

Is there a problem with the internal logic or the maths or anything else with his statement? Is a prophetic year really that long etc?

The prophecy on Ezek. 4 does not say that Israel will have a 430 year exile. It says that punishment is to be given 390 years for Israel and 40 years for Judah. Ezekial is clearly partaking in a symbolic act, laying down by his model of Jerusalem. The Numbers are symbolic for sure, but not as a prophetic calendar. 40 years would have immediately triggered in the Hebrew mind a recollection of the wilderness. Basically God was sending Judah back to the wilderness to learn obedience again, but would come out eventually obtaining the Promise. The 390 in reference to Israel, the northern kingdom, is probably a reference to their sojourn in Egypt. God was sending them back into bondage, but the years are cut short (from 400) to leave room for mercy if folks from the northern kingdom should repent. This interpretation is taken from Fairbairn's Commentary on Ezekiel. He knew Hebrew much better than a fiction novelist. Certainly there are other possible interpretations out there, but there is clearly an agenda behind trying to mark the beginning of modern Israel which warps their understanding of Scripture. Ezekial's prophecy is preparing the people of God for the coming of the Messiah not a return to Palestine in the 20th century.

The Jews rejected the Messiah. Only those who embraced Jesus have come out of Exile. That is why the people weeped in Ezra when the temple was rebuilt. They realized that the promise was yet to be fulfilled. They were in the land with a puny temple, no glorious kingdom, and more importantly no glorious King (which Ezekiel also prophecied very clearly in Ez. 37). You can't interpret Ezekiel to contradict himself. The Israel of today is clearly not a fulfillment of Ezekiel because Jesus does not reign there (nor any descendent of David), in fact he is still rejected. Modern Israel is no more than another Maccabean-like nation. They are still trying to build a physical nation when Christ promised them something better. They are in effect still in Exile. They need the gospel not a timetable.

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

VirginiaHuguenot,

Thank you for sharing that, it was a very good read.

You're very welcome, Bobbi.

 

[Archlute]

There was a discussion on a forum for the local university Christian group which I attend. Someone said something which interested me and I wanted to know what you guys thought about it, what I should reply with etc... I will quote the whole statement. I wanted to paraphrase it but he seemed to have done a good job himself.

Quote:
OK,
here's something in an appendix of a book I've got (The Third Millennium by Paul Meier). I'll summarize it as best as I can.

In the Torah Moses wrote (Lev 26:18 and elsewhere) that when Israel sinned greatly God would allow calamity to come their way. He would, however, give them a chance to repent and if they didn't then the punishment would be multiplied by 7.

IN Ezekiel 4:3-6 a 430 year exile is decreed for Israel.

The first 70 years of this were in Babylon (Jeremiah 25:11)

Take the remaining 360 years multiply by 7 gives us 2520 years.

The author says that in prophecy the years are to counted in years of 360 days, and when this is calculated from the date of Cyrus' decree to return to Jerusalem (536BC), there are exactly 2520 prophetc years of 360 days (or 907,200 days in total) to May 14, 1948 - the date of the creation of the modern state of Israel.

I don't know how much (if anything) we should read into this.

But it does present a possiblity of viewing the modern state of Israel as analogous to the ancient kingdom, without necessarily approving of all (or any) of their behaviour.



What do you guys think? I did not want to accept this until someone else looked at it and I had time to think.

Just question the basics of his exegesis. He states that their punishment would be "multiplied by seven", and then jumps straight to the use of the number seven to multiply the number of years remaining in the exile. His use of those passages in Leviticus fail him from the start.

If one actually studies the shape of the twenty-sixth chapter (instead of just scanning for numbers), he will find that it comes in two sections; the first section runs from vv. 1-13, and the second from vv. 14-16.

In the first section God lays out the blessings that he will bring the nation of Israel if they obey His law and stay far from the idolatry of the nations. It is an increase in their physical and spiritual prosperity; an intensity in the increase of these blessings (nothing to do with multiplying of time).

The second section is the negative parallel to the first; these are the curses that would belong to Israel if they were to prove unfaithful (which they did, of course). The phrase "multiplied by seven", as he renders it to gain his temporal multiplier, is more clearly rendered as "I will discipline you sevenfold for your sins", as translated by the ESV. The Hebrew term used there is one of adding to/increasing the intensity of a punishment, not the lengthening of a period of time. This can be clearly seen by the description of the punishments that are laid out after each of the four occurences of that phrase in this chapter (26:18, 21, 24, 28). There is an increase in their misery and horror, in parallel to what would have been their increase in joy and delight, if they had been faithful.

That being the case, the arbitrary use of this passage to gain the number seven for suspect escatalogical schemes is just that - arbitrary. I'm sure that there are plenty of other passages that he could have gone to containing the number seven, but the fact that this had to do with curses appearantly made it more plausable for him.

 

[tcalbrecht]

The view that the Bible teaches a gathering and restoration of the Jews to their homeland is not confined to modern dispensationalists. It was a hallmark of Puritan eschatology. Below are some references which may be of interest:

Furthermore, a large proportion of those who took " Israel" in Romans 11:25 ff. to speak of Jews, also taught that there would be a restoration of Jews to their ancient homeland in the Near East either after, or at the same time as, their conversion to Christ.[48]

Iain Murray, The Puritan Hope:

This particular comment highlights the great difference between modern dispensationalists and the Puritans on this subject. Modern Dispensationalists place Israel in the land while yet in unbelief and receiving divine blessing for the mere fact of being "God's chosen people".

There is also the matter of the temple and sacrifices, with modern dispensationalism being essentially holding judaistic view of the future.

 

[JohnV]

In regard to calculating years in prophecy I read this somewhere, but I can't remember where. See what you think:

(paraphrasing: putting it in my own words)
It seems that a years for the ancient Jews would have to average around 365days a year because that's how long a year is no matter how you count it. The Jews regarded months by the moon's stages, and regarded the year by the stages of harvest. So it seems that their year was not necessarily related to the months as we have it. That is where the two different years in the Jewish calendar came from. I read that they sometimes added days in a thirteenth month to make up the difference. This makes it rather difficult, if not impossible, to calculate the days from the standpoint given above.

But the real difficulty comes with the change from the Julian calendar to the modern calendar. It has proven impossible to date some things due to the inaccuracy and/or lack of universality of the Julian Calendar. Pretty well all dates given for the time of the Julian calendar era are estimates or conventionally approved standards. That's why a lot of history books have Jesus' birth as around 7 BC . It is not possible that Jesus was born seven years before He was born. This only indicates that the formula settled on for estimating the years from the differences in the calendars and the dates given by historians who were under the Julian calendar system are not as accurate as we would like. Apparently the problem lies in the fact that different places would have different dates, that universality and uniformity in dating things were not like they are today; that was one of the reasons for changing to the calendar system we have today.

Anyways, the gist of it was that dating things by any system had far too many intrinsic problems with them to count for anything. People can always calculate backwards by some convenient methodology and gain an appearance of accuracy. But any such system would necessarily be suspect.

 

[Abd_Yesua_alMasih]

Thanks guys this has been really interesting

 

[JoeRe4mer]

I'm not sure why Dispensationalist feel it nessisary to back up thier position with such strange argumentation. Anyway it sounds as if your friend is trying to get you to buy into his theology by using some kind of pseudo mathmatical jargon in order to make you secound guess yourself.
Stay the coarse and just stick to scripture. Romans would be a good place to start, show him what it means to be a true son of Abraham.

Lord Bless,