Supporting the state of Israel

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Reformed Fox

Puritan Board Freshman
(Maybe this should be posted elsewhere, but I am not certain.)

How many people in the reformed community end up blindly supporting the state of Israel? Though I have never polled congregants in churches I have attended those in the reformed tradition are mostly free from making this mistake (understandably). At the last church I attended there was one individual wearing a pro-Israel shirt and literally the first thing he said after we introduced ourselves is that I should visit Israel and not believe any of the propaganda coming from the other side. It was an awkward experience on a number of levels but it got me into thinking how prominent blind support for Israel is in reformed circles?

Can anyone give me some clues?

P.S. Also how tied is support for Israel to dispensationalism? Of course this was the root of the problem but now there is a general socio-cultural precedent tying support for Israel to conservative "real" Christianity.
 
One can make the argument that it is better to support Israel because they (at least pretend) to be democratic whereas the Muslims want to bomb everybody. There is nothing eschatological about that claim.

I think it is a lot more complex than that, though. It's possible to support Israel for non-theological, non-eschatological reasons.

Theological support for Israel is tied to dispensationalism because, admittedly against all odds, the Jews (whatever that term means at the moment) are back in the "Land."

Other things complicating any support for Israel:
1. Some Palestinians are Christians (okay, we'll ignore the various shades of Christianity for the moment).
2. Most Israelis don't really pretend to be theists.
3. To the degree that Orthodox Jews hold to the Talmud, that raises new problems, like the Talmud's claim that Jesus is boiling in human waste in hell right now. As well as how the Talmud defines the goyim.
4. Mossad has probably supported numerous terrorists organizations.
5. It's rather strange that ISIS doesn't attack Israel.
 
My buddy was talking to me about this yesterday, and was saying that we should because of Romans 11
 
How tied is supporting Israel to dispensationalism? All dispensationalists support Israel but not all Israel supporters are dispensationalists.
 
blind support for Israel is in reformed circles?

That's generally going to be the result of dispensationalist infiltration. As others have noted, there are reasons to prefer Israel to many of their muslim neighbors, but 'blind support' is generally a sign of bad theology.
 
My buddy was talking to me about this yesterday, and was saying that we should because of Romans 11

Romans 11, on the most pro-Israel reading, simply says that all Israel will be saved. I believe, as did many other saints, that the most natural reading of Romans 11 posits an end-time conversion.

However, there is nothing in the above sentence that says American taxpayers are obligated to die for Israel.
 
There has long been a tradition in Protestantism of expecting a general conversion of the Jews and even a return to their land, going by the writings of John Owen - all long before dispensationalism. The historical hope was always centred on the Jews' coming into the Christian fold, rather than there being any intrinsic merit in Judaism, as some dispensationalists seem to believe.

Israel, however, is currently an ungodly state, so there is no reason why they should be any more immune from criticism than other states. Yet with the hotbed of Islam in the Middle East, Israel may be a useful power.
 
The Jews are sinners, like everyone else, so they and the Israeli government shouldn't be beyond criticism. Sinners are never beyond criticism, indeed many Jews and Israelis, themselves, criticise the Israeli government. There shouldn't be blind support for Jews, Israelis or the Israeli government, whether one is Reformed or Dispensationalist.

Romans 9-11 indicates that God isn't "finished with the Jews", that they will always exist as a people, that they will always have a remnant of believers among them, and that there may well be a future national conversion leading to further worldwide blessing.

God has plans for all nations - not just Israel after the flesh - to incorporate them into the Church, the transhistorical and transnational Israel of God.

All the nations you have made shall come and worship before you, O Lord, and shall glorify your name.(Ps 86:9)
 
Don't some Dispensationalists support Israel so that they will hurry up and build a new Temple in order to hasten the Great Tribulation?
 
Don't some Dispensationalists support Israel so that they will hurry up and build a new Temple in order to hasten the Great Tribulation?

Yeah, they're very keen on the idea of building a Temple and sacrificing a spotless heifer. This is what distinguishes dispensationalism from the historical interpretation. Whereas Christians have awaited the conversion of Jews to Christianity, the dispensationalist belief is very carnal. They believe all of the prophecies of the Old Testament must be fulfilled "literally" (as they see it), rather than letting the New Testament illuminate the Old. As such, they believe that Jews will continue to practise Judaism (including restored animal sacrifices, some say!) during the Millennium after the second advent of Christ, under His monarchy. As such, dispensationalists have very politicized beliefs, which are of course unscriptural and completely alien to historical Christianity.
 
Don't some Dispensationalists support Israel so that they will hurry up and build a new Temple in order to hasten the Great Tribulation?

Old school Dispensationalists, yes; other premils, no. A premillennialist could assert that the temple will be rebuilt while thinking this would be a bad thing (since it would involve blowing up the Mosque of Omar).
 
Don't some Dispensationalists support Israel so that they will hurry up and build a new Temple in order to hasten the Great Tribulation?

Yes, though how any Christian can read the epistle to the Hebrews and support such a notion is beyond me.
 
I'm sure when the Jews are converted as a nation, they'll pass by on any notions of rebuilding the temple :)

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Thanks everyone.

For clarification, im my experience most support for the state of Israel within Christian circles really has been blind. There are all sorts of bad presuppositions such as how one is either a supporter of Israel (a beacon of light, democracy, and development) or a fundamentalist caliphate. And, in their minds, one MUST choose. All reasonable objections, like those mentioned above are swept aside.

My real question is how common these beliefs are within reformed circles. I am not certain, but it strikes me that those self-identifying as such have escaped this aweful trend.

I bring up dispensationalism because it strikes me that nobody ever has any other real justifiable reason for supporting Israel. Sometimes realist IR reasons are thrown in like how the United States "needs an ally in the region" or how Israel is a "beacon of democracy and Western civillization" but such defenses strike me as shallow and only work if support is a firegone conclusion.
 
Jews Called

I'm sure when the Jews are converted as a nation

Did anyone mention Larger Catechism 191? We get some insight into the eschatology of the divines:

Question 191
What do we pray for in the second petition.?
Answer
In the second petition (which is, Thy kingdom come), acknowledging ourselves and all mankind to be by nature under the dominion of sin and Satan, we pray, that the kingdom of sin and Satan may be destroyed, the gospel propagated throughout the world, the Jews called, the fulness of the Gentiles brought in; the church furnished with all gospel officers and ordinances, purged from corruption, countenanced and maintained by the civil magistrate: that the ordinances of Christ may be purely dispensed, and made effectual to the converting of those that are yet in their sins, and the confirming, comforting, and building up of those that are already converted: that Christ would rule in our hearts here, and hasten the time of his second coming, and our reigning with him forever: and that he would be pleased so to exercise the kingdom of his power in all the world, as may best conduce to these ends.
 
It is important that just because we have seen the craziness of Dispensationalism, that we do not throw out the proverbial baby with the bathwater. Based upon the WLC 191 as quoted above (which is in part based upon Romans 10): the original Westminster Directory of Public Worship instructs us to pray thus in the public prayer before worship:

"To pray for the propagation of the gospel and kingdom of Christ to all nations; for the conversion of the Jews, the fulness of the Gentiles, the fall of Antichrist, and the hastening of the second coming of our Lord; for the deliverance of the distressed churches abroad from the tyranny of the antichristian faction, and from the cruel oppressions and blasphemies of the Turk; for the blessing of God upon the reformed churches, especially upon the churches and kingdoms of Scotland, England, and Ireland, now more strictly and religiously united in the Solemn National League and Covenant; and for our plantations in the remote parts of the world: more particularly for that church and kingdom whereof we are members, that therein God would establish peace and truth , the purity of all his ordinances, and the power of godliness; prevent and remove heresy, schism, profaneness, superstition, security, and unfruitfulness under the means of grace; heal all our rents and divisions, and preserve us from breach of our Solemn Covenant."

In the Presbyterian tradition, we have traditionally held that God will pour out His Spirit upon the Jews, and cause them to look upon the one whom was pierced, mourn and come back to Him.

Without the nuttiness that is found in Left Behind Theology.
 
In addition, many dispensationalists believe Numbers 24:9 and similar verses still apply to present day Israel. I've been warned before that lack of support for Israel will bring the curses of God upon us.

Regardless, I would suspect most Reformed people support Israel nationally for political reasons, as would I. They are the lesser of the evils in the region, constantly at risk of being under siege by enemies surrounding them, and a historical ally of our nation.
 
Most posters have nailed the dispensational connection accurately. Due to the history of revivalism in America, there is a much larger knee-jerk support for Israel for dispensational, quasi dispensational, and dispensational "leakage" into other views reasons than in other countries. My eldest son's father-in-law is worse than the example cited in the OP. His veins pop out when Luther's name gets mentioned because of his racist attacks on "God's chosen people." He gets really excited about the rebuilding of the Temple rumors, red heifers, and blood red moons too (a Wheaton B.A., M.A. back in the day).

However, as Rom noted, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Even Riddlebarger, who wrote a (if not "the") book on Amillennialism, sees some kind of conversion of the Jews taking place in the eschatological timetable. And, as one who has visited Israel 6x in the last 25 years, don't confuse a visit to Israel for historical, archaeological, and biblical reasons with a blind support for Israeli politics.

A majority of Israeli people are secularists or fairly non-orthodox. "In 2010 a report released by the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics showed that 8% of Israel's Jewish population defines itself as ultra-Orthodox, 12% as Orthodox, 13% as traditional-religious, 25% as traditional, and 42% as secular, on a descending scale of religiosity." The last two categories are close to what we would think of as "nominal" and "secular."

Incidentally, although he appears to practice a pretty immoral lifestyle like many world leaders (e.g., mistress), Bibi Netanyahu is no dummy. A M.I.T. B.S. and M.S. graduate, he supposedly has a 180-187 IQ (Einstein reportedly had a 160).

All I know is that while I'm a committed late-life convert to amillennialism, if Rayford Steele shows up (particularly if he resembles Nicholas Cage), all bets are off! Jenkins, LaHaye and I will wave as you get "left behind." ;) :rofl:
 
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My buddy was talking to me about this yesterday, and was saying that we should because of Romans 11

I'm not sure what you mean by "because of Romans 11". Israel is an anti-God, pagan, evil nation just as others. As Christians, we shouldn't support those who hate God. Would you support an abortion clinic? Would you support a prostitution house? Then why would we support Israel? Nations aren't neutral. You either hate God or love Him.
 
It is important that just because we have seen the craziness of Dispensationalism, that we do not throw out the proverbial baby with the bathwater. Based upon the WLC 191 as quoted above (which is in part based upon Romans 10): the original Westminster Directory of Public Worship instructs us to pray thus in the public prayer before worship:

"To pray for the propagation of the gospel and kingdom of Christ to all nations; for the conversion of the Jews, the fulness of the Gentiles, the fall of Antichrist, and the hastening of the second coming of our Lord; for the deliverance of the distressed churches abroad from the tyranny of the antichristian faction, and from the cruel oppressions and blasphemies of the Turk; for the blessing of God upon the reformed churches, especially upon the churches and kingdoms of Scotland, England, and Ireland, now more strictly and religiously united in the Solemn National League and Covenant; and for our plantations in the remote parts of the world: more particularly for that church and kingdom whereof we are members, that therein God would establish peace and truth , the purity of all his ordinances, and the power of godliness; prevent and remove heresy, schism, profaneness, superstition, security, and unfruitfulness under the means of grace; heal all our rents and divisions, and preserve us from breach of our Solemn Covenant."

In the Presbyterian tradition, we have traditionally held that God will pour out His Spirit upon the Jews, and cause them to look upon the one whom was pierced, mourn and come back to Him.

Without the nuttiness that is found in Left Behind Theology.

Prayer for conversion is a must, however, support for a nation in context of American cultural terms means mostly money or time invested in political action. In either case (money or political), both are wrong.
 
I'm sure when the Jews are converted as a nation

Did anyone mention Larger Catechism 191? We get some insight into the eschatology of the divines:

Question 191
What do we pray for in the second petition.?
Answer
In the second petition (which is, Thy kingdom come), acknowledging ourselves and all mankind to be by nature under the dominion of sin and Satan, we pray, that the kingdom of sin and Satan may be destroyed, the gospel propagated throughout the world, the Jews called, the fulness of the Gentiles brought in; the church furnished with all gospel officers and ordinances, purged from corruption, countenanced and maintained by the civil magistrate: that the ordinances of Christ may be purely dispensed, and made effectual to the converting of those that are yet in their sins, and the confirming, comforting, and building up of those that are already converted: that Christ would rule in our hearts here, and hasten the time of his second coming, and our reigning with him forever: and that he would be pleased so to exercise the kingdom of his power in all the world, as may best conduce to these ends.

Yes... Post-millennial.
 
Exactly. It always boggled my mind to meet Christians who would rightly condemn Islam, Humanism, Atheism, ect. but come rushing to the defense of Israel (a political unit) which has the most secular Judaism in the world. If Christianity is right Judaism must be wrong.
 
A lot of the support among some Reformed people is connected with their support for Establishment Republicanism. The Establishment will die for Israel, plain and simple. However, establishment politics isn't as popular now as it was in 2008, so some of the die-for-Israel mentality has faded as well.
 
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