Dating/marrying a non-Calvinist?

[Joseph Scibbe]

And a little coaching here, on the first date it is best to say "SInce we first talked I could not wait to see you again". Do not say " I really wanted to ask you out, and after posting on the Puritan Board whether I should or not, and getting x number of replies from my Calvinist geek friends, some who have actually been on dates and are married, I decided to ask you out."

Best advice on this subject so far.

---------- Post added at 12:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:56 PM ----------

I agree that married people generally have more experience in dealing with marriage relationships. All things equal, I'd go to an older, married elder to get marriage advice.

This is exactly what I was expressing in my previous posts, so I don't know why you seem to be making such a big deal out of this. I never said single people had no wisdom, couldn't be used of God, or had nothing to offer in terms in advice.

I apologize. I misread your attitude that "these pithy single people are weighing in on this. who gave them such permission". I am sorry if I offended you or anyone else here.

 

[Zenas]

First of all we don't need a photo of her, we need a good photo of you so we can better determine your dating / marraige chances in general. Seriously you've gotten lots of advice on the PB, some good I believe, but the best advice will come from the Holy Spirit. I met my wife in church when I was not a professing believer. My wife's friends told her to not be interested in me because I would bring her down spiritually. She believed I was the one God wanted her to spend her life with so she patiently waited on God to change me before she seriously sought a lasting relationship.

It's funny that a few weeks ago as I was teaching a Wednesday night class at our church on apologetics, my wife had a thought about her friends warning her 28 years ago that I would bring her down. (Just to clarify she doesn't think that I have). If you feel strongly about asking her out then do it and be alert to the Spirit's leading as you proceed in the relationship.

I came from a similar situation. When I met my wife, I was not a believer. I went and met her father to ask her out on a date. He said to her after I left, "What are you thinking? Never in a million years will I let you end up with that boy. You're wasting your time."

He and I went to a baseball game on Monday with his youngest son and one of our friends. His youngest son is like my own little brother. I think I've spent more time with him than one of his own brothers has.

I say that to say this: I am the exception to the rule. Her father's reaction was correct, maybe not in its severity, but in its substance. He was right to react skeptically because the general rule is, it's a bad idea. I would never encourage a young lady to become romantically attracted to a nonbelieving young man like my wife did. She would 100% agree. Waiting around for someone else to change is a recipie for disaster, short of divine intervention.

In your case, we're not talking about unequally yoking, as was the issue that was relevant in my circumstance. Nonetheless, difference in doctrine can, in practice, become just as divisive. Instead of being divided regarding whether to go to church, you're divided on where you'll be a member. In my estimation, it can be just as damaging.

Do not bank on me, the exception to the rule. Even with God changing my heart and ultimately giving my wife and I each other, it was a lot harder than it would have been if she had chosen a fellow believer from the outset. Obviously, we do not regret this and obviously, we believe the costs were worth it. Do you?

 

[Andres]

And a little coaching here, on the first date it is best to say "SInce we first talked I could not wait to see you again". Do not say " I really wanted to ask you out, and after posting on the Puritan Board whether I should or not, and getting x number of replies from my Calvinist geek friends, some who have actually been on dates and are married, I decided to ask you out."

Best advice on this subject so far.

---------- Post added at 12:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:56 PM ----------

I agree that married people generally have more experience in dealing with marriage relationships. All things equal, I'd go to an older, married elder to get marriage advice.

This is exactly what I was expressing in my previous posts, so I don't know why you seem to be making such a big deal out of this. I never said single people had no wisdom, couldn't be used of God, or had nothing to offer in terms in advice.

I apologize. I misread your attitude that "these pithy single people are weighing in on this. who gave them such permission". I am sorry if I offended you or anyone else here.

No offense taken by me. It's all good brother.

 

[Iconoclast]

Alb1,


You said;

If you feel strongly about asking her out then do it and be alert to the Spirit's leading as you proceed in the relationship.

Could you clarify how that might look to HIM? Are you suggesting something like this?

13Behold, I stand here by the well of water; and the daughters of the men of the city come out to draw water:

14And let it come to pass, that the damsel to whom I shall say, Let down thy pitcher, I pray thee, that I may drink; and she shall say, Drink, and I will give thy camels drink also: let the same be she that thou hast appointed for thy servant Isaac; and thereby shall I know that thou hast shewed kindness unto my master.

15And it came to pass, before he had done speaking, that, behold, Rebekah came out, who was born to Bethuel, son of Milcah, the wife of Nahor, Abraham's brother, with her pitcher upon her shoulder.

16And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a virgin, neither had any man known her: and she went down to the well, and filled her pitcher, and came up.

17And the servant ran to meet her, and said, Let me, I pray thee, drink a little water of thy pitcher.

18And she said, Drink, my lord: and she hasted, and let down her pitcher upon her hand, and gave him drink.

19And when she had done giving him drink, she said, I will draw water for thy camels also, until they have done drinking.

 

[Der Pilger]

Is she a Christian? If yes, then she is dateable/marriable. The doctrinal issues may be a problem but as long as she is willing to submit and attend church with you then there is no problem. Her credo Baptist position is the only problem I see but that canm be talked about.

I agree about nailing down the submission issue. That's a big deal, and biblical, too. The credo-baptist position doesn't bother me because I hold to the same position.

My apologies. Your subscribed confession was the WCF so I assumed you were paedo.

My subscribed confession is both the WCF and the 1689 LBC.

---------- Post added at 05:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:24 PM ----------

What you have to discern is where this young lady is theologically. She may be like my wife was - no real theological understanding with a willingness to learn. But she may not be. She may have deep convictions that are at odds with your Reformed theology. In such a case, a romantic relationship may be unwise. So (1) what (if anything) does she believe about biblical doctrine and (2) what is her temperament and disposition to your leadership and teaching?

I agree. Since I don't know her very well, I'd have to find these things out. My impression is that she is firmly entrenched in her views because she has been going to her church for many years now and even attended the school there as a child. She also wrote something in her last e-mail to me that indicated a probable misunderstanding of Calvinism (though I don't think it would be ethical to copy her words here). None of that means she'd be unwilling to change, but it doesn't look promising.

Thanks, by the way, to everyone who has responded. I think a lot of good advice has been given. At this point I think it's wiser to err on the side of caution than to ignore these doctrinal differences, which represent massive differences in belief systems--differences that could cause major waves down the road. I'd rather stay single and lonely than to be stuck in a marriage filled with strife and conflict. I realize that won't necessarily happen, but I also realize the folly in assuming that it could not happen.

---------- Post added at 05:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:46 PM ----------

Of course, a person's holiness also stems from doctrine due to the practical nature of Christian doctrine, but a person's holiness is also important even outside of its connection to true doctrine. As a Christian, it will only grieve you to see your spouse being unfaithful to Christ, and indeed, unfaithfulness to Christ is a good reason to suspect you did not "marry in the Lord." There is also the issue of kids again, what they will see in the home. Will they grow up saying, "Mom and dad always got into fights over silly issues. And they were extreme hypocrites, not living out what they claimed to believe."? I certainly hope not! Would you be willing to withold any true, reformed doctrine from your kids in order to keep the peace in the home? What if in giving your kids that doctrine it ended up lowering their esteem of their mother? Think of the sabbath issue again. I don't know where you stand on the issue, but if you taught the kids your opinion while their mother believed the opposite, their mother would appear to be a legalist or an antinomian in their eyes, unless of course their mother hid her views from them well enough. But anyway, such holiness should be what attracts one to a wife, I would think. 1 Tim. 2, 1 Peter 3.

Good thoughts, and thanks. I agree that the potential for conflict needs to be carefully considered.

Once again, I am not advocating perfect agreement in everything, nor am I advocating waiting to see whether you are mostly agreed in doctrines of worship and salvation before dating, but a lot of these things can be figured out before then such that you can tell whether there is a general agreement or possibility of complete agreement (especially in the areas of salvation and portions of the area of worship), and I would not suggest dating someone who clearly would not or is not mostly agreed in those areas.

Again, I agree. My communication with her has been via e-mail only, and I'm using that to sort out these issues first in order to see if I want to proceed to the next step (i.e., meeting in person).

Also, I highly suggest you remove that picture of her unless you had permission to post it. I do not know what she is like, but the girls that I know would not be happy if they found out someone did that to any of them.

That's not the girl I've been talking about. That's Jennifer Lopez.

 

[Apologist4Him]

My wife was raised in the United Methodist Church. When I met her, she was active in her liberal mainline Methodist church. I knew that in spite of her liberal upbringing she was a regenerate Christian lady with a tender and submissive spirit. She earnestly desired to be instructed in the things of God and his word and I was most willing to oblige. She has never questioned my teaching as I patiently proved my doctrine from the Holy Scriptures. She was in a theologically vacuous environment and welcomed what I had to say with open arms.

And so we've never argued doctrine. The girl raised in an historically Arminian, paedobaptist, Liberal, egalitarian, humanistic church is today a staunch Reformed Baptist (with everything that implies!). And thank God for her. .

Your experiences have been very similar to mine with my wife. It is amazing what God can do. I can see where there might be an advantage to marrying a partner with the exact same beliefs, but this would still be no guarantee of significant problems down the road. Even Reformed couples can and do get divorced. And while it may be preferable, and an advantage, God may have something else in mind. I think the main concern, is whether or not a partner is teachable, and whether or not you can agree to disagree. It doesn't take much effort to see, that even among us Reformed folk, there is often some disagreement, even if it is over the smallest detail. Communication is extremely important, and how we go about communicating, and patience.

To the OP, I would date her, get to know her, spend some time with her, show her you are interested, and respect her even if you disagree, and give her room to disagree. If you lived where I do, finding a Reformed wife, would be like finding a needle in a haystack. I did not become Reformed overnight myself, it took a good deal of time among other things.

 

[alb1]

Alb1,


You said;

If you feel strongly about asking her out then do it and be alert to the Spirit's leading as you proceed in the relationship.

Could you clarify how that might look to HIM? Are you suggesting something like this?

13Behold, I stand here by the well of water; and the daughters of the men of the city come out to draw water:

14And let it come to pass, that the damsel to whom I shall say, Let down thy pitcher, I pray thee, that I may drink; and she shall say, Drink, and I will give thy camels drink also: let the same be she that thou hast appointed for thy servant Isaac; and thereby shall I know that thou hast shewed kindness unto my master.

15And it came to pass, before he had done speaking, that, behold, Rebekah came out, who was born to Bethuel, son of Milcah, the wife of Nahor, Abraham's brother, with her pitcher upon her shoulder.

16And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a virgin, neither had any man known her: and she went down to the well, and filled her pitcher, and came up.

17And the servant ran to meet her, and said, Let me, I pray thee, drink a little water of thy pitcher.

18And she said, Drink, my lord: and she hasted, and let down her pitcher upon her hand, and gave him drink.

19And when she had done giving him drink, she said, I will draw water for thy camels also, until they have done drinking.

I was thinking something more modern like the woman who offers him a cool drink and offers to fill up his gas tank when he shows up to pick her up with no a/c and the windows down in his car because he is low on fuel. She would be the one.

 

[Der Pilger]

First of all we don't need a photo of her, we need a good photo of you so we can better determine your dating / marraige chances in general.

 

[christiana]

Continue on with this plan only if a lifetime of arguing over election and the other four points of Calvinism sound like a happy home to you!

 

[alb1]

First of all we don't need a photo of her, we need a good photo of you so we can better determine your dating / marraige chances in general.

Jeremy you are in luck. Trade in the suit for a light colored polo and khakis to soften up your look a little and you will do fine in the dating arena.

I see you decided to pass on the non calvinist lady. I will sincerely pray for you as you seek to find a like minded companion.

 

[Der Pilger]

First of all we don't need a photo of her, we need a good photo of you so we can better determine your dating / marraige chances in general.

Jeremy you are in luck. Trade in the suit for a light colored polo and khakis to soften up your look a little and you will do fine in the dating arena.

Come on, undertakers always wear black!

I see you decided to pass on the non calvinist lady. I will sincerely pray for you as you seek to find a like minded companion.

No, but I suspect she has passed on me. Oh well, life goes on. Thanks for your prayers.

 

[Mushroom]

If you were single and in my place, would you date her?

Nope. Not even if she were Calvinist but didn't share my view of the sacraments and covenant. And I will not permit my daughters to be courted (what's this 'dating' garbage? men and women are either pursuing marriage, or have no business engaging in that type of activity) by any man who does not agree fully with said views. I don't have that kind of biblical authority over my son, but my counsel to him will be the same. While in PB discourse civility is the standard, one who holds to the WCF will consider credo-baptistic views to be sinful. Why would I want my children yoked with an openly sinful professor?

 

[Der Pilger]

While in PB discourse civility is the standard, one who holds to the WCF will consider credo-baptistic views to be sinful. Why would I want my children yoked with an openly sinful professor?

Interesting. One can only conclude, then, that you consider the paedobaptistic view to be a required basis for fellowship (since you see anyone who holds to the "other" view as being openly sinful).

 

[Mushroom]

I and my confession. I do make a distinction between contumacy and ignorance, however, and extend charity accordingly.

 

[Pilgrim]

My subscribed confession is both the WCF and the 1689 LBC.

With regard to subscribing to both, see here: http://www.puritanboard.com/f30/can-one-hold-both-wcf-lbcf-67946/

You can hold to one or the other or neither, but you cannot hold to both. Have you read both confessions clearly, brother? You can view a side by side comparison here. If you read them both, I think you'll see that you can't hold to both.

 

[but3leftsdo]

My wife was raised Wesleyan, so it took her a little longer to come around than me. Did she love the Lord when we were dating? Youbetcha. She was raised a Wycliffe Missionary Kid, and saw first hand what God could do, and has a servant's heart. She is a Godly woman who loves God and His word, and is raising our children to do the same. I'm with Iconoclast, I say spend some time in the word and prayer with her first, then you will both get to know where each other are spiritually, then take it from there.

 

[Der Pilger]

My subscribed confession is both the WCF and the 1689 LBC.

With regard to subscribing to both, see here: http://www.puritanboard.com/f30/can-one-hold-both-wcf-lbcf-67946/

You can hold to one or the other or neither, but you cannot hold to both.

This goes beyond the scope of this thread, but briefly: You can hold to both, but not both in their entirety. I reject the paedobaptism of the WCF, for example, but not everything it teaches. Rejecting one teaching out of an entire confession does not mean one rejects the whole document. I don't see this as an either/or issue.

 

[matthew11v25]

My Story:
My wife was not a calvinist when we married, and in hindsight I would say it worked out great and made for a great journey between the two of us. My wife is/was a very Godly woman, and eventhough she was not informed on the details of Reformed theology when we got married, I believe that her lack of understanding/acceptance of certain theological issues did not detract in the slightest from her being a wonderful wife and mother...

She trusts me, God's Word, His Church, and Her Ministers, and now she is very comfortable with Calvinism.

All this takes time! We did not discuss the details of Calvinism until we were about five months in our relationship. There are still things that we do not agree on, but we also try to have discussions in a way that doesnt lead to "Bad" arguments (not easy). Probably the most heated issue between us currently is what constitutes a break of the 2nd Commandment. She was raised in a Roman Catholic family so they are very comfortable with pics of Jesus. The easiest issue was probably Infant Baptism

Everyone is different, but I like it this way. A little disagreement only adds to the fun In my humble opinion.

 

[Gavin]

Hi Jeremy,
Meanwhile back at the ranch: I'm thinking of dating a Calvinist what do you all think?" To which the congregation all said "no way drop him".
But if you both have feelings (yes emotions) both sides might very well be kicking against the pricks.
Im Calvinist, my wife is halfway there exept on the point of free will, been married for almost 20years now.

 

[ryanhamre]

I am blessed with a wife who readily submits to scripture, and reformed doctrines.

With this, I greatly lucked out, since it wasn't until after we were married that God saved me.

I could not imagine having my best friend not have the same doctrinal beliefs, and be of the same mind.

I would not date a non-Calvinist for the same reason I would not marry one, for the same reasons I wouldn't go to a non-reformed church, and for the same reasons I feel closer to our church body than my own brothers, sister, and parents.

 

[tlharvey7]

the real question is... can God in His soverignty ordain a marriage with a "non-calvinist"? i would think and hope so.

don't forget.... non of us here were born 5 pointers!

 

[J. Dean]

I'm always amazed to find this attitude in the church when the bulk of the Biblical teaching we have on marriage is from Jesus and Paul, two unmarried men.

Well, one is the Son of God Himself, and the other was writing under direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

 

[ryanhamre]

the real question is... can God in His soverignty ordain a marriage with a "non-calvinist"? i would think and hope so.

don't forget.... non of us here were born 5 pointers!

the real question is... can God in His soverignty ordain a marriage with an "unbeliever"? i would think and hope so.

don't forget.... non of us here were born believers!

 

[Andres]

the real question is... can God in His soverignty ordain a marriage with an "unbeliever"? i would think and hope so.

Since this entire discussion revolves around a Reformed Christian courting a spouse, I am going to assume that is what you are referring to above. In that case, the scriptures actually expressly forbid a Christian from marrying an unbeliever, so I'm not sure why you would hope this would be the case.

 

[ryanhamre]

Since this entire discussion revolves around a Reformed Christian courting a spouse, I am going to assume that is what you are referring to above. In that case, the scriptures actually expressly forbid a Christian from marrying an unbeliever, so I'm not sure why you would hope this would be the case.

I was replying to the individual who posted the exact same message, but instead of unbeliever had "non-calvinist" and "5 pointer". The view lacked support, and it would appear that the same argument that was given could be given for marrying an unbeliever.

I do not espouse either view, and as seen in my post above-

I would not date a non-Calvinist for the same reason I would not marry one, for the same reasons I wouldn't go to a non-reformed church, and for the same reasons I feel closer to our church body than my own brothers, sister, and parents.

 

[Mushroom]

God in His decree has ordained the union of many believers to unbelievers, many calvinists to non-calvinists, & etc., but as Rich stated in another thread, we live not by the decree but by the things revealed. I would have claimed to be a believer, although one in grievous rebellion, when I married my then-unbelieving wife. God in His grace ordained that she would be brought to faith, and transformed into such a godly woman that she puts me to shame. But now that He has granted us a further understanding, we would never counsel another Christian to do the same, nor even a calvinist to marry a non-calvinist.

But God's grace is immeasurable.

 

[Calvin87]

I am dating a girl who is what my best friends call a "semi-Calvinist". And I have to admit...it's been hard at times. She used to be a baptist. And when we started dating, I had no idea that she felt as if the Lord and herself literally had verbal conversations. It's been difficult at times. But the longer we have dated, the more I have asserted that we have to be on the same page, that is if we wish to get married. There have been several severe arguments over doctrine and theology. Had I known that it would have been such a struggle, I might have waited until a more reformed woman came along.

 

[Notthemama1984]

Had I known that it would have been such a struggle, I might have waited until a more reformed woman came along.

You could always dump her.

 

[Pilgrim]

View attachment 2071

 

[SolaScriptura]

I am dating a girl who is what my best friends call a "semi-Calvinist". And I have to admit...it's been hard at times. She used to be a baptist. And when we started dating, I had no idea that she felt as if the Lord and herself literally had verbal conversations. It's been difficult at times. But the longer we have dated, the more I have asserted that we have to be on the same page, that is if we wish to get married. There have been several severe arguments over doctrine and theology. Had I known that it would have been such a struggle, I might have waited until a more reformed woman came along.

Huh? You're not married, you're dating... and you're acting like you're stuck for life? Gimme a break, man.