Should flags be placed in the sanctuary?
- Thread starter jawyman
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jawyman
Puritan Board Junior
Bill, are you saying that so long as there is not a worship service going on the flag would acceptable?
Yes. The sanctuary is nothing but a room. It is not the Holy of Holies of the OT. Now, is it expedient and prudent? That's another question.
Christianity is not an American religion and bringing a national flag into a worship service divides brothers and sisters who worship together. I am thankful that I live in America, but when our brothers and sisters from the Czech republic worship with us, why would they need to look at an American flag?
I'm not a fan of any flag or banner. In my humble opinion the central point of focus of the Christian faith is what happened on the cross. The cross is the emblem of our faith. I'm all for tasteful accents in the sanctuary (flowers, decorative trees, complimentary architecture), but that's about it. The only faith related object I would approve would be a plain cross. I know some even disagree with that. That's fine. I would have no difficulty if there wasn't even a cross.
raekwon
Puritan Board Junior
I don't believe that the placement of flags (or any other piece of art -- save supposed pictures of Christ) are necessarily unbiblical or contra-confessional to have in the sanctuary. It's just a room. Nothing necessarily holy about it.
But... I don't see why we'd have them in there (flags, that is).
But... I don't see why we'd have them in there (flags, that is).
Montanablue
Puritan Board Doctor
Right, it seems like placing a flag in a church sanctuary would be intentional, and I would wonder at the intent behind it.
On the other hand, let's say one is at a church that's worshipping at a public school and there just happens to be a flag in the classroom you're using. Then, I don't think it matters.
MLCOPE2
Puritan Board Junior
I grew up in the Christian Church (DoC) and we had both a christian flag and an american flag in the sanctuary as well. We even went so far as to say the pledge of allegiance to both flags every week during sunday school. I think that was a major problem but didn't realize it at the time.
jawyman
Puritan Board Junior
The Lutheran church (WELS) never went so far as to recite the pledge in the sanctuary or in worship.
Grimmson
Puritan Board Sophomore
Point of clarification: I’ve always has a bible in my public school classrooms. I just didn’t teach from it in the classroom. Students are allowed to bring bibles and teachers can read from the bible during their own time. Teachers are just not allowed to evangelize the public school students.
jawyman
Puritan Board Junior
While I did not grow up LCMS here is what the Missouri Synod states on their website:
Flags in Sanctuary
Q. What is the LCMS position on the American flag and the Christian flag being displayed in the sanctuary? And where should the flags be placed?
A. The LCMS does not have an official stand on the inclusion of flags being displayed in the sanctuary. This is, ultimately, an adiaphoron--i.e., something neither commanded nor forbidden by Holy Scripture. We do have, however, a history and background to be considered in whether or not to display flags in the sanctuary, as well as the message that displaying such flags might convey.
Rev. Prof. William Schmelder, seasoned parish pastor, historian and professor emeritus of Concordia Seminary, St. Louis, has responded to a query from the Commission on Worship regarding this matter:
"To the best of my knowledge, the U.S. flag began appearing in our churches in response to two things: the desire to express an unquestioned loyalty as U.S. citizens (a reaction to WWI sentiment) and the growing sacralization of the flag in U.S. culture. In the history of my home congregation (Immanuel, Bristol, CT), the story of the responses to both WWI and WWII is given in some detail. However, the picture of the church after the renovation in 1948 does not show a flag. There was a flag on the grounds between the church and the school, and it was raised and lowered with considerable ceremony when school was in session. I think that is one response evident in many congregations: we could show our loyalty in many ways without placing the flag in the church; other congregations seem to have brought it into the building itself, with great debate about the proper location (nave, chancel, narthex, etc.).
"Non-Americans are often astounded to see a national symbol in the church (perhaps they have memories of the Nazi flag being touched to the altars of German churches).
"The so-called Christian flag is another matter entirely. It has no tradition of the church behind it. In fact, it violates much of what anyone knows of ecclesiastical heraldry. It seems to be the design of one man, who both drew it and profits from it. He or his heirs still get a royalty on every one sold. People seem to think that you need something to balance the U.S. flag on the other side, so you have a Christian flag."
Obviously, the inclusion of the American and Christian flags is widespread in the LCMS. As Professor Schmelder mentioned, this probably developed out of the desire of congregations of prominently German-American heritage not to appear German during and after the world wars. Likewise, many veterans of those wars returned with great patriotic zeal, which probably manifested itself in the desire to display "Old Glory" in the sanctuary.
Today, however, it may be time to reconsider this short-lived tradition among us (Lutherans never did this prior to WWI, and then only in America). One may observe that many congregations today, when considering a sanctuary renovation or even building a new sanctuary, will opt to display the flag in a location other than the chancel or nave. Many will place a flag outside of the building proper, or perhaps in the narthex. In such ways, as Professor Schmelder noted, we can demonstrate our patriotism, but not blur the distinction between the kingdom of Christ with the kingdom of the world/government. Our Lord's words, of course, come to bear on this issue ultimately: "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and render unto God the things that are God's" (Luke 20:22). Both are good and right ... in their respective places and times.
Guidelines for displaying the U.S. flag are directed in U.S. Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 7. Sub-sections (i) and (k) are the pertinent guidance for flag placement in churches, whether in the sanctuary proper, or in a narthex/entranceway or other room.
"(i) When displayed either horizontally or vertically against a wall, the union should be uppermost and to the flag's own right, that is, to the observer's left....
(k) ...When displayed from a staff in a church or public auditorium, the flag of the United States of America should hold the position of superior prominence, in advance of the audience, and in the position of honor at the clergyman's or speaker's right as he faces the audience. Any other flag so displayed should be placed on the left of the clergyman or speaker or to the right of the audience."
It should be noted that certain church architecture may require "applying" the guidance, since some worship spaces, for example, are not designed in a traditional sanctuary cruciform manner. Given that caveat, the following general guidance is offered.
1. In the sanctuary, if the national ensign (American flag) is placed on the floor level, it may be placed to the congregation's left (the clergyman's right as he faces the congregation) "or, the flag may be placed in a position of honor to the right of the audience as it faces the speaker, with any other flag to the left" (from the Department of Defense publication, "Our Flag"). This either/or placement is an indication of differing rationales in emphasis: the first is the place of honor from the clergyman/speaker's perspective facing the audience; the second emphasizes the place of honor from the audience's perspective.
2. If the U.S. flag is placed within the chancel, the flag is placed on the left side, i.e., to the clergyman's right as he faces the congregation. If the Christian flag or the LCMS logo flag is displayed with the American flag in the chancel, the correct placement (of the Christian flag or LCMS logo flag) is on the right side, i.e., the clergyman's left side as he faces the congregation.
3. If the U.S. flag is placed with another flag elsewhere in the sanctuary or in another building, it (the U.S. flag) is always on the left as one faces it.
4. If the U.S. flag is carried in a processional, it is the first flag. If others are included, the U.S. flag's position is first if single file or on the right if other flags are carried in a line with it. If a cross is in the processional, it (the cross) leads followed by the flags.
5. If the U.S. flag is on a flagpole, by regulation is must have the superior (top most) position. If another flag is also desired to be displayed, the easiest solution to avoid the appearance of "state over Church" is to have a second flag pole; the U.S. flag's position is always on the right.
Flags in Sanctuary
Q. What is the LCMS position on the American flag and the Christian flag being displayed in the sanctuary? And where should the flags be placed?
A. The LCMS does not have an official stand on the inclusion of flags being displayed in the sanctuary. This is, ultimately, an adiaphoron--i.e., something neither commanded nor forbidden by Holy Scripture. We do have, however, a history and background to be considered in whether or not to display flags in the sanctuary, as well as the message that displaying such flags might convey.
Rev. Prof. William Schmelder, seasoned parish pastor, historian and professor emeritus of Concordia Seminary, St. Louis, has responded to a query from the Commission on Worship regarding this matter:
"To the best of my knowledge, the U.S. flag began appearing in our churches in response to two things: the desire to express an unquestioned loyalty as U.S. citizens (a reaction to WWI sentiment) and the growing sacralization of the flag in U.S. culture. In the history of my home congregation (Immanuel, Bristol, CT), the story of the responses to both WWI and WWII is given in some detail. However, the picture of the church after the renovation in 1948 does not show a flag. There was a flag on the grounds between the church and the school, and it was raised and lowered with considerable ceremony when school was in session. I think that is one response evident in many congregations: we could show our loyalty in many ways without placing the flag in the church; other congregations seem to have brought it into the building itself, with great debate about the proper location (nave, chancel, narthex, etc.).
"Non-Americans are often astounded to see a national symbol in the church (perhaps they have memories of the Nazi flag being touched to the altars of German churches).
"The so-called Christian flag is another matter entirely. It has no tradition of the church behind it. In fact, it violates much of what anyone knows of ecclesiastical heraldry. It seems to be the design of one man, who both drew it and profits from it. He or his heirs still get a royalty on every one sold. People seem to think that you need something to balance the U.S. flag on the other side, so you have a Christian flag."
Obviously, the inclusion of the American and Christian flags is widespread in the LCMS. As Professor Schmelder mentioned, this probably developed out of the desire of congregations of prominently German-American heritage not to appear German during and after the world wars. Likewise, many veterans of those wars returned with great patriotic zeal, which probably manifested itself in the desire to display "Old Glory" in the sanctuary.
Today, however, it may be time to reconsider this short-lived tradition among us (Lutherans never did this prior to WWI, and then only in America). One may observe that many congregations today, when considering a sanctuary renovation or even building a new sanctuary, will opt to display the flag in a location other than the chancel or nave. Many will place a flag outside of the building proper, or perhaps in the narthex. In such ways, as Professor Schmelder noted, we can demonstrate our patriotism, but not blur the distinction between the kingdom of Christ with the kingdom of the world/government. Our Lord's words, of course, come to bear on this issue ultimately: "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and render unto God the things that are God's" (Luke 20:22). Both are good and right ... in their respective places and times.
Guidelines for displaying the U.S. flag are directed in U.S. Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 7. Sub-sections (i) and (k) are the pertinent guidance for flag placement in churches, whether in the sanctuary proper, or in a narthex/entranceway or other room.
"(i) When displayed either horizontally or vertically against a wall, the union should be uppermost and to the flag's own right, that is, to the observer's left....
(k) ...When displayed from a staff in a church or public auditorium, the flag of the United States of America should hold the position of superior prominence, in advance of the audience, and in the position of honor at the clergyman's or speaker's right as he faces the audience. Any other flag so displayed should be placed on the left of the clergyman or speaker or to the right of the audience."
It should be noted that certain church architecture may require "applying" the guidance, since some worship spaces, for example, are not designed in a traditional sanctuary cruciform manner. Given that caveat, the following general guidance is offered.
1. In the sanctuary, if the national ensign (American flag) is placed on the floor level, it may be placed to the congregation's left (the clergyman's right as he faces the congregation) "or, the flag may be placed in a position of honor to the right of the audience as it faces the speaker, with any other flag to the left" (from the Department of Defense publication, "Our Flag"). This either/or placement is an indication of differing rationales in emphasis: the first is the place of honor from the clergyman/speaker's perspective facing the audience; the second emphasizes the place of honor from the audience's perspective.
2. If the U.S. flag is placed within the chancel, the flag is placed on the left side, i.e., to the clergyman's right as he faces the congregation. If the Christian flag or the LCMS logo flag is displayed with the American flag in the chancel, the correct placement (of the Christian flag or LCMS logo flag) is on the right side, i.e., the clergyman's left side as he faces the congregation.
3. If the U.S. flag is placed with another flag elsewhere in the sanctuary or in another building, it (the U.S. flag) is always on the left as one faces it.
4. If the U.S. flag is carried in a processional, it is the first flag. If others are included, the U.S. flag's position is first if single file or on the right if other flags are carried in a line with it. If a cross is in the processional, it (the cross) leads followed by the flags.
5. If the U.S. flag is on a flagpole, by regulation is must have the superior (top most) position. If another flag is also desired to be displayed, the easiest solution to avoid the appearance of "state over Church" is to have a second flag pole; the U.S. flag's position is always on the right.
N. Eshelman
Puritan Board Senior
A poll would be nice, Jeff. Maybe you can get one of those up.
Personally I am not for it. It seems that the Christian Flag is a scam and a farce anyway- have you ever read the history of it??? RIDICULOUS!
I also do not think that promoting nationalism needs to be a part of our Christian witness. We call the nations to kiss the son, not our parishoners to kiss the nation.
Personally I am not for it. It seems that the Christian Flag is a scam and a farce anyway- have you ever read the history of it??? RIDICULOUS!
I also do not think that promoting nationalism needs to be a part of our Christian witness. We call the nations to kiss the son, not our parishoners to kiss the nation.
N. Eshelman
Puritan Board Senior
Flags in the Sanctuary
Here's a poll to go along with Jeff's discussion.
Here's a poll to go along with Jeff's discussion.
I'd like to consider the "it's just a room" thought. From that perspective, an ad for McDonalds would be OK too. While the church is primarily the people of Christ, when we come together, we are involved in a sacred activity and the principle is taught over and over in the OT that we cannot casually approach God in any way we choose. A flag, in my understanding, would be foreign incense. What's in a sanctuary should contribute to our worship and glorification of God alone.
Christopher88
Puritan Board Sophomore
I do not support it. While I am glad to be a citizen of Americia she is not my God. Politics have nothing with God in worship and all things politic wise should stay out.
I grew up Baptist and we had the American flag, but as I grow, I strongly disagree with having the A. Flag in worship. Our hearts, brains, eyes, ears, need to be on Christ not our second home. For my true home is the mansion that awaits my life when I pass from here to the thrown of Christ.
I grew up Baptist and we had the American flag, but as I grow, I strongly disagree with having the A. Flag in worship. Our hearts, brains, eyes, ears, need to be on Christ not our second home. For my true home is the mansion that awaits my life when I pass from here to the thrown of Christ.
Jean, the sanctuary is nothing but a room. Monday through Saturday it can serve any of thousand purposes (so long as they are not intrinsically sinful). But on the Lord's Day the sanctuary becomes the meeting place of God's people. In that room, however it is constructed, it contains a holy assembly. It is appropriate for the room itself not to distract from the worship of God. But at it's core the sanctuary is just a room. If worship was held in the open air we wouldn't be discussing a room. However, we would be still be gathering to worship God.
Notthemama1984
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I am against it. I grew up in churches we would pledge allegiance to the American Flag, the Christian Flag, and the Bible (in that order). I didn't have a problem with this when I was young, but I look back and shudder a bit.
Montanablue
Puritan Board Doctor
I wonder if military chaplains have to deal with this. I would imagine in a military chapel there would be an American flag. (I mean, its probably even on the chaplain's uniform).
I didn't know there was such a thing as a Christian flag.
In the oldest churches over here you'll quite often see various old flags, military standards usually not Union Jacks, as a permanent feature. While I don't know the thoughts of those who first put them there - I think I've always taken it that the flags weren't there to be themselves reverenced, but in token of acknowledgement that deliverance in war is only from the God of battles. Maybe a bit like bringing firstfruits to be offered.
Does that sound as if it's acceptable?
In the oldest churches over here you'll quite often see various old flags, military standards usually not Union Jacks, as a permanent feature. While I don't know the thoughts of those who first put them there - I think I've always taken it that the flags weren't there to be themselves reverenced, but in token of acknowledgement that deliverance in war is only from the God of battles. Maybe a bit like bringing firstfruits to be offered.
Does that sound as if it's acceptable?
Notthemama1984
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Sure, it is on our uniform and it probably will be in the chapel. That isn't a reason for me to avoid chapel services or military service in general. I see a difference between a military setting and a civilian one. The military setting is bringing God into a governmental setting, but a civilian church is bringing government into a spiritual setting. I see a huge difference.
Rich Koster
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Flags, Icons, artwork and banners can be a distraction in my opinion. In the meetinghouse, keep it plain clean and orderly.
MLCOPE2
Puritan Board Junior
I forgot that we did the pledge to the bible as well, and in the same order. What church did you grow up in?
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