Is The Tithe For Today?
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Rich Koster
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Where is the temple and Levites to bring it to?????????????????
Stewardship of all God given resources and cheerful (not under compulsion) giving In my humble opinion.
I didn't read the other thread first.
Stewardship of all God given resources and cheerful (not under compulsion) giving In my humble opinion.
I didn't read the other thread first.
No.
1) It was an old covenant requirement
2) The New Testament does not teach the Tithe
3) The New Testament teaches A) All of our lives belongs to the Lord B) Give unto the Lord generously (there is no 'fixed amount')
4) Those who try to keep the tithe today cannot because in the OT it was much more than 10% it also involved argicultural offerings (in othet words it does not transfer well culturally.
5) Teaching the Tithe as 'law' is legalism and brings God's people under law.
The following is Pauls instructions regarding giving. As we can see no mention of the tithe, instead there is liberty. N.T is not about hard and fast rules as the law was. N,T is about the spirit of the law and not the letter of the law. The spirit of the law is grace, mercy, compassion and kindness.
1) It was an old covenant requirement
2) The New Testament does not teach the Tithe
3) The New Testament teaches A) All of our lives belongs to the Lord B) Give unto the Lord generously (there is no 'fixed amount')
4) Those who try to keep the tithe today cannot because in the OT it was much more than 10% it also involved argicultural offerings (in othet words it does not transfer well culturally.
5) Teaching the Tithe as 'law' is legalism and brings God's people under law.
The following is Pauls instructions regarding giving. As we can see no mention of the tithe, instead there is liberty. N.T is not about hard and fast rules as the law was. N,T is about the spirit of the law and not the letter of the law. The spirit of the law is grace, mercy, compassion and kindness.
DonP
Puritan Board Junior
No now days you wait for the theonomists to set up a city of refuge and take it there.
General Equity.
Wow this kind of Pharisaical thinking almost makes me want to go alllll the way to where many of my Bib Theol friends would say, all the 10 commandments as delivered to Israel the nation have been abrogated !
As long as we understand the moral law they described has always been and is still a rule of life for believers.
And of course lawmakers today are free to adopt any of their laws if seen as best and nothing better or more applicatory to our nation would better suit.
And they should be consistent with the General Equity or basic ideas and purposes of the OT laws.
Weren't the laws to be instructive of God and His nature as well as just safeguards for a society.
So 2 Cor 9:6 But this I say: He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. 7 So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work. 9 As it is written:
"He has dispersed abroad, He has given to the poor; His righteousness endures forever."
10 Now may He who supplies seed to the sower, and bread for food, supply and multiply the seed you have sown and increase the fruits of your righteousness, 11 while you are enriched in everything for all liberality, which causes thanksgiving through us to God. NKJV
Gal 4:9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? NKJV
Mark 12:42 Then one poor widow came and threw in two mites, which make a quadrans. 43 So He called His disciples to Himself and said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury; 44 for they all put in out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all that she had, her whole livelihood." NKJV
1 Cor 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also: 2 On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come.
NKJV
But I don't see 10% mentioned.
matthew11v25
Puritan Board Sophomore
Here are some thoughts:
1. The tithe in it’s OT form is not for today (wasn’t it part of the Ceremonial Laws?)
2. Giving in various forms is a strong NT teaching, but no percent is given. All we own belongs to God and if furthering Christ’s Kingdom through the preaching of the gospel is a primary importance in our life than only 10% given to that purpose should only be a starting point (unless there are reasons otherwise…maybe huge debt, etc???)
3. Discipline is a Biblical concept and can help in giving. Maybe using a percentage is helpful. My wife and I use a base percentage and then go from there….this helps with budgeting because we have school loans, etc.
4. Gross/Net/first fruits distinctions are not the point of giving. We may live in a society someday that taxes universally 90%. If you tithed on gross at that point you would be broke and unable to feed your family.
1. The tithe in it’s OT form is not for today (wasn’t it part of the Ceremonial Laws?)
2. Giving in various forms is a strong NT teaching, but no percent is given. All we own belongs to God and if furthering Christ’s Kingdom through the preaching of the gospel is a primary importance in our life than only 10% given to that purpose should only be a starting point (unless there are reasons otherwise…maybe huge debt, etc???)
3. Discipline is a Biblical concept and can help in giving. Maybe using a percentage is helpful. My wife and I use a base percentage and then go from there….this helps with budgeting because we have school loans, etc.
4. Gross/Net/first fruits distinctions are not the point of giving. We may live in a society someday that taxes universally 90%. If you tithed on gross at that point you would be broke and unable to feed your family.
I know there was electricity eminating from my fingers when I hit the "Submit Reply" button.
matthew11v25
Puritan Board Sophomore
Amen!
Whitefield
Puritan Board Junior
One of the problems I have with a quick dismissal of the tithe is that it means we are left without an objective expression from God on what we should bring back to Him. By dismissing an objective expression from God, we are returned to the realm of the subjective: "bring what you want" as opposed to "bring this."
Is that not the nature of Grace? The removal of 'fixed rules' makes it about the expression of the heart. It removes the question 'what is the minimun which I need to do to please God'? This in turn removes self satisfaction i.e 'I pary three times a day, I pay my tithes I am not like this tax collector'.
Are you saying that the nature of Grace is the removal of fixed rules?
Not entirely. I was using the term, perhaps unhelpfully, to summarise the concept expressed by Paul when he compares 'the letter of the law' with the 'Spirit'. He sums up the Old Covenant as 'the letter of the law' which 'kills' and the New covenant as being of the Spirit. 'The letter kills but the Spirit gives life'. Likewise in ,Colosians, I think, he talks about ceremonial laws as 'beggarly elements'. In other words its not about ceremonial laws it is instead about the law being written on our herats by The Spirit. As we walk be the spirit, not be following rules, we walk in love towards God and man. As we walk in love towards God and man we fulfil the law Beacuse the law is summed up in love for God and love for man.
Hope that clarifies.
Whitefield
Puritan Board Junior
This leaves us with no objective expression from God as to what He desires us to return to Him. It is all left up to our subjective feelings. He was clear before, but now He seems to be silent.
Glenn Ferrell
Puritan Board Junior
If tithing is still obligatory, we should be paying three tithes on the agricultural increase (seed, vines, trees, herds, and flocks) of the promised land, the first of these going to Levites. Do you live in Judea? Are your elders Jewish Christian Levites?
There was no provision for a tithe on wages or income from trade, or agricultural increase outside Palestine.
The New Testament principle is sacrificial, cheerful, proportionate giving for the support of the ministry of the word and relief of the destitute, proper stewardship of all the rest as belonging to God, and “an endeavor, by all just and lawful means, to procure, preserve, and further the wealth and outward estate of others, as well as our own.”
Yet, there are principles to be learned from the Old Testament tithes. If I didn’t give at least ten percent of my increase to God’s work, I’d question whether I was giving sacrificially, cheerfully, and proportionately; and set a goal toward which to strive. But, stewardship requires “me to procure, preserve” and further my outward estate. If I go into debt to give ten percent, I’m not giving what is mine; but what rightly belongs to another. Perhaps that’s why the tithe was on increase, not part and cause of a progressive diminishment in outward estate.
There was no provision for a tithe on wages or income from trade, or agricultural increase outside Palestine.
The New Testament principle is sacrificial, cheerful, proportionate giving for the support of the ministry of the word and relief of the destitute, proper stewardship of all the rest as belonging to God, and “an endeavor, by all just and lawful means, to procure, preserve, and further the wealth and outward estate of others, as well as our own.”
Yet, there are principles to be learned from the Old Testament tithes. If I didn’t give at least ten percent of my increase to God’s work, I’d question whether I was giving sacrificially, cheerfully, and proportionately; and set a goal toward which to strive. But, stewardship requires “me to procure, preserve” and further my outward estate. If I go into debt to give ten percent, I’m not giving what is mine; but what rightly belongs to another. Perhaps that’s why the tithe was on increase, not part and cause of a progressive diminishment in outward estate.
What Paul means in Rom 7:14 is not that we should not follow rules, but that doing so with the flesh only is missing the point.
John Calvin:
If Tithing were still a 'rule', it would need to be obeyed not only in the flesh, but in soul, mind and will with a 'savor for the spirit.' Your line of argumentation (by you and others) implies that if someone tithes, they are not doing so with 'angelic purity'. Isn't it possible that those who tithe do so in spirit and not just the letter? Is it the case that every time a Christian writes a check for 10% that they are hypocritically following a 'beggarly element'? If so, y'all better do the math before you drop your check into the offering and make sure it doesn't add up to 10%!
Exactly. When I used to follow the 'rule' of giving whatever the Lord laid on my heart, I was in bondage. I was never exactly sure what it was I was supposed to offer. It was very confusing. Then I was liberated by the Tithe. I tithe and am now free to 'give' above and beyond the tithe what the Lord lays on my heart.
Whitefield
Puritan Board Junior
In modern terms, the tithe was on income, not on savings. Or in economic jargon, the tithe was on "flows" and not on "stocks."
??? The Levites tithed and it wasn't on agricultural increase. The tribe of Gad tithed and they did not live in Judea. The tithe may have been administered by the Levites but it was not reserved for 'Jewish Christian Levites', but for the poor and the fatherless as well. I don't think this is a good argument at all.
The tither does not disagree.
This is very good and gets to the heart of the matter. Remember that we are on Puritan Board and no one here is insisting on adhering to the Tithe as a ceremonial law. The question is more about the 'general equity' of Law of the Tithe. What are the principles to be learned from the OT? What is an 'increase'? Why give at all? Who should benefit from our offerings? These are all great questions that help lead us to be better stewards of what God has given us. Isn't that what is most important?
Whitefield
Puritan Board Junior
Why should one feel this way if there is no objective standard? And is the "goal toward which to strive" an objective goal, or is it just some goal I have invented?
Rich Koster
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
My drift is that "temple worship" is abolished. We are to steward all God has given us. We are to share with those who instruct us in the word, with widows & orphans, and as you mentioned "seed for the sower" as God leads us. When we give it should be a "I want to be a part of this" action not a "here it is, I've fulfilled my obligation" action.
If I remember correctly, the 1 Cor 16 post is about setting aside money for famine relief in the Church in a systematic way.
puritanpilgrim
Puritan Board Junior
I don't think tithing is for today. But I was raised this way, since it is still taught in the SBC. I can not bring myself to do hermeneutical gymnastics with Malachi. But, still it's so engrained in my psyche that I do it anyway.
DonP
Puritan Board Junior
Maybe I will move to Boise. Love this thinking.
I do believe that one can give 10% cheerfully and willingly.
"KMK
Exactly. When I used to follow the 'rule' of giving whatever the Lord laid on my heart, I was in bondage. I was never exactly sure what it was I was supposed to offer. It was very confusing. Then I was liberated by the Tithe. I tithe and am now free to 'give' above and beyond the tithe what the Lord lays on my heart."
But KMK are you saying liberty caused you bondage? I have never heard such a thing. This sounds like the Phraisees who would say they had an unclear guilty conscience so they made a pharisaical law to appease it so they could feel they were obedient because they did not like walking by faith or were devoid of true faith.
Not saying this was you. But couldn't you also feel good if you had decided it was actually fine with God to give as you pleased as the Spirit put it on your heart and according as He prospered you? Couldn't you have seen the tithe as General Equity guideline and what was minimal in the OT and so now give with that in mind. Maybe even do exactly as you do now, minimally give 10% and more sometimes? Seems like the same answer and less bondage.
Paul said why do you desire to be put back under bondage laws instead of exercising freedom?
I think I hear Paul saying, you who desire to be back under the law, if you weren't saved by the law why would your sanctification be by law?
And why is it legal tithers don't obey all the tithes. Why do they pick one and not as Pastor Ferrel said pay all 3 tithes listed in the OT.
Maybe do Jubillee too and give your house back to the original owner ever 50 years.
Just asking that age old question, how theonimists pick which laws they should be obeying and ignore others.
The obligation to give God 100% is an objective standard. It is clearly taught in the parables of the hid treasure and the pearl of great price, by the teaching of the Lord to the rich young ruler and to His disciples on the real cost of following Him, as well as by numerous NT epistles which emphasise that everything one does is to be for the glory of God and the good of our neighbour.
DonP
Puritan Board Junior
Come back down to earth, I say this reverently Pastor.
Of course it is all the Lord's and to be used with that in mind, but we do not actually give all of it to Him or the church directly.
The thread is for advice on paying tithes or what we give to the church yes?
We give some to the church, maybe some to other ministries we providentialy come across and we give some to the grocery store as unto the Lord.
SolaScriptura
Puritanboard Brimstone
I often hear people say things like "the tithe isn't for today."
Every now and then it will be wrapped within the admittedly pious language of "since the New Covenant is so much better than the Old, the percentage should be so much higher!" Ok, and there are a handful of folks I know who give well above 10%. Heck, one man I know lives on 25% of his pay... the rest is given.
HOWEVER... Generally speaking...
I'm convinced that many of the folks who argue against the tithe as being obligatory do so because they want to justify their stinginess.
Every now and then it will be wrapped within the admittedly pious language of "since the New Covenant is so much better than the Old, the percentage should be so much higher!" Ok, and there are a handful of folks I know who give well above 10%. Heck, one man I know lives on 25% of his pay... the rest is given.
HOWEVER... Generally speaking...
I'm convinced that many of the folks who argue against the tithe as being obligatory do so because they want to justify their stinginess.
Rich Koster
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I'm going to split a hair here......
As a Christian, don't we actually divide our giving between what I would classify as serving and honoring ???
As a Christian, don't we actually divide our giving between what I would classify as serving and honoring ???
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