Christians and alcohol

[etexas]

No problem, brother. Just so it's known that I did not, in fact, refer to you as a Pharisee. I encourage each and every one to hold me accountable as a member of the board and, particularly, as a moderator. I hope and pray that my posts have shown grace and humility, and have offered more light than heat.

You are pretty graceful and humble!.........When are you coming to my part of Texas. Megan and I will take you out and I will PERSONALLY buy you a cold beer!

 

[etexas]

Not sure the next time I'll be visiting the "other" T-town.

Offer stands when you are in this neck o' the woods. GREAT steakhouse down the road from (best steak fries around) and they have good Texas Shiner on tap, I'll set you up cat!

 

[MW]

For what it's worth, I agree with fingolfin. The comparison with food and gluttony suffers from the fallacy of composition. Food is generic whilst wine is specific. To make the comparison work you should match food with drink or wine with junk food.

 

[bwsmith]

Cares about your opinion or cares about the fact you compare something God gave to man with Russian roulette?

Indeed -- and I have thought a bit about the use and abuse of alcohol. The Scriptures condemn drunkenness which indicates there is a risk in drinking.

One in four people will be affected by someone else’s use of a substance that produces unexpected “kicks.” For the person who picks a harmless drink, relying on their freedom to do so, somebody else usually picks up your tab – there is no absolute prohibition, but there is a risk, and those who are over thirty have lived to see many who have wrecked so much by exercising their rights.

I know I am on the losing side of this debate –

 

[Davidius]

For what it's worth, I agree with fingolfin. The comparison with food and gluttony suffers from the fallacy of composition. Food is generic whilst wine is specific. To make the comparison work you should match food with drink or wine with junk food.

Having seen the way in which wine is often described in the scriptures, it would be difficult for me to match it with junk food.

 

[bwsmith]

Why?

Because I have seen too many lives wrecked -- and these folks have been well-educated, and often with positions of leadership, some in the church.

 

[Davidius]

Indeed -- and I have thought a bit about the use and abuse of alcohol. The Scriptures condemn drunkenness which indicates there is a risk in drinking.

One in four people will be affected by someone else’s use of a substance that produces unexpected “kicks.” For the person who picks a harmless drink, relying on their freedom to do so, somebody else usually picks up your tab – there is no absolute prohibition, but there is a risk, and those who are over thirty have lived to see many who have wrecked so much by exercising their rights.

I know I am on the losing side of this debate –

Unless you're condemning anyone who drinks any amount of alcohol, there's no debate to be lost or won. It sounds like you're just expressing the need for caution and the reasoning behind your choice to abstain. There is nothing wrong with that.

 

[Ivan]

As I've pointed out before, gluttony and drunkenness are twin sins but, hypocritically, many practice the former but only worry about the latter.

Sad, but true. And this is where some Baptists fail. No alcohol but fill the plate. Not a pretty sight.

 

[etexas]

Because I have seen too many lives wrecked -- and these folks have been well-educated, and often with positions of leadership, some in the church.

My Grandfather created 3 companies from the ground up (one was a publicly traded company), yet for his brilliance the bottle took him, he did not live to see my second Birthday.........the Doctors had warned him he would die.....

 

[Ivan]

I know I am on the losing side of this debate –

Well, if it makes you feel any better, I don't drink.

 

[MW]

Having seen the way in which wine is often described in the scriptures, it would be difficult for me to match it with junk food.

You may need to find another comparison then. My point was only to show that you cannot argue wine -> drunkenness, and food -> gluttony, as if they were on a par. One you cannot do without but is necessary to sustain life whilst the other is an option. Also, one should be careful to provide the complete biblical picture of alcoholic beverages and not merely focus on parts which legitimate the use of the fruit of the vine within certain contexts. Blessings!

 

[bwsmith]

Unless you're condemning anyone who drinks any amount of alcohol, there's no debate to be lost or won. It sounds like you're just expressing the need for caution and the reasoning behind your choice to abstain. There is nothing wrong with that.

Anyone who picks up a drink runs the risk of being ensnared – That is not a condemnation; that's a warning – one that many who dot the “I’ ” and cross the “t” in sound doctrine ignore. Maybe this can be classified as sour grapes Never seen anybody with a couple of drinks in them who was as clever as they thought they were – or as restrained and careful in their speech or conduct.

 

[bwsmith]

Well, if it makes you feel any better, I don't drink.

What would make me feel better is if many in leadership would the epidemic that addictions are in the church . . .

 

[bwsmith]

My Grandfather created 3 companies from the ground up (one was a publicly traded company), yet for his brilliance the bottle took him, he did not live to see my second Birthday.........the Doctors had warned him he would die.....

And most will not listen until they've ridden the elevator all the way down. Yet, with so many examples, we think that it can't/won't happen to us. . .

 

[etexas]

Anyone who picks up a drink runs the risk of being ensnared – That is not a condemnation that a warning – one that many who dot the “I’ ” and cross the “t” in sound doctrine ignore. Maybe this can be classified as sour grapes Never seen anybody with a couple of drinks in them who was as clever as they thought they were – or as restrained and careful in their speech or conduct.

Amen, I was a JERK after drink 2! People it took my wife telling me she would leave if I would not cut out the drinking!

 

[etexas]

I likes my coffee! Paul's "Grandfather" in a Hard Days Night...........What a clean old man! Seriously, I believe in Christian liberty on this matter (I drink nothing stronger than coffee 'cause I'm a lush) I think there is nothing wrong with someone in the Church having a couple of cold ones.......if they can handle it! It is just that I have seen too much abuse of this liberty.

 

[etexas]

Thanks. I'll probably have sweet tea.

That's what I have............thogh when I feel real hard core.......they make their own lemonade!

 

[Semper Fidelis]

For what it's worth, I agree with fingolfin. The comparison with food and gluttony suffers from the fallacy of composition. Food is generic whilst wine is specific. To make the comparison work you should match food with drink or wine with junk food.

The point, Rev. Winzer, is that they are twin sins. Even if wine is more specific than food, whenever one is condemned in the Scripture, the other is alongside of it. Scripture doesn't seem to have a problem comparing the two.

Whether or not food is essential to life is not in dispute and I have not compared the two in that fashion. The essential nature of food over alcohol doesn't let the glutton "off the hook" to claim that "...at least I'm not a drunkard..." - his sin is just as wicked. In fact, gluttony rates far eclipse alcholism if you look at body composition.

Why isn't there indignation? I'm not asking you but it is a rhetorical question. Why are we not angry at leaders about ignoring the epidemic of gluttony in the Church? It's really easy to find the fat people after all - over half of all Americans are overweight, while about 40% are classified as obese.

Finally, while drunkeness is condemned by the Word, abstinence is not then commended as the solution.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Indeed -- and I have thought a bit about the use and abuse of alcohol. The Scriptures condemn drunkenness which indicates there is a risk in drinking.

One in four people will be affected by someone else’s use of a substance that produces unexpected “kicks.” For the person who picks a harmless drink, relying on their freedom to do so, somebody else usually picks up your tab – there is no absolute prohibition, but there is a risk, and those who are over thirty have lived to see many who have wrecked so much by exercising their rights.

I know I am on the losing side of this debate –

Because I have seen too many lives wrecked -- and these folks have been well-educated, and often with positions of leadership, some in the church.

Anyone who picks up a drink runs the risk of being ensnared – That is not a condemnation that a warning – one that many who dot the “I’ ” and cross the “t” in sound doctrine ignore. Maybe this can be classified as sour grapes Never seen anybody with a couple of drinks in them who was as clever as they thought they were – or as restrained and careful in their speech or conduct.

What would make me feel better is if many in leadership would the epidemic that addictions are in the church . . .

And most will not listen until they've ridden the elevator all the way down. Yet, with so many examples, we think that it can't/won't happen to us. . .

One wonders why God was not so wise as to prohibit its consumption. You speak of alchohol as some sort of force that compels men to sin in over-indulgence. Touch not, taste not is, in fact, the solution contra Paul.

Do you really think that the Pharisees thought they were doing a bad thing by adding to God's Law? In fact, if you read why they did it, they thought they were helping the people of God. You may not like the comparison but what you're describing above is called "fencing the Law". The Law lacks specificity to protect people as I think they ought, thus here is the new command so you don't even have to get close to that which might have made you stumble. Worried about Sabbath-breaking? Prescribe a distance that a man can travel legally because it's not spelled out in the Law and, don't you know, people will sin and go way past a Sabbath's day journey if we don't tell them.

Of course, it's not in the journey that God's Law has been broken to begin with. It starts in the heart and no amount of mollycoddling and fencing of the Law is going to solve that problem.

 

[matthew11v25]

Take a group of 100 people and let them eat and about 40 of them become gluttons:

http://www.solideogloria.com/article/2007/01/03/04.51.14

Agreed.

This is subjective, but from what I have seen gluttony definetly trumps alcohol in our culture. Maybe we should be tackling gluttony more since it most likely leads to impairing believers. When I used to eat alot (and was well over weight) I was essentially to some degree mentally and physically handicapped.

 

[KMK]

Also, one should be careful to provide the complete biblical picture of alcoholic beverages and not merely focus on parts which legitimate the use of the fruit of the vine within certain contexts. Blessings!

And this would be difficult to do on a discussion such as this. I highly recommend these two sources for the 'complete biblical picture'. Both by men who are not lovers of wine:

This book by Kenneth Gentry: "God Gave Wine"

and

This sermon by John Weaver: "Wine, Its Condemnation and Commendation" @ http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=12203124227

Also, I think the comparison that some are making between drunkenness and gluttony is good in that they are often paired together in scripture. I think the angle, however, should be that (along with rest and sex) they are God given blessings that men overindulge in and turn into curses.

 

[AV1611]

What then about dope/weed/marajoina (spl?)? God created that yet it would be sinful to "consume".

 

[puritan lad]

Kenneth Gentry gives a good scriptural overview of the issue here.

ISSUE: Does Scripture Permit Us to Drink Alcoholic Beverages?

 

[Answerman]

Scott, that link is not working for me, could you double check it and fix it?

Thank you.

 

[bwsmith]

So this causes you to oppose all consumption of alcohol?

Alcohol consumption is not forbidden – but carries serious warnings -- given the problems in the 21st century caused by addictions, esp. among solidly reformed types, I wonder that so many still want their freedoms unhampered.

 

[tcalbrecht]

...

Just a friendly reminder of the signature requirements for this board.

http://www.puritanboard.com/showthread.php?t=2028

 

[bwsmith]

But this 'risk' of being ensnared can (and should be) applied to a plethora of things. Which is exactly why it would be wise for Christians to remember that sin shall not be our master. However, the answer is not an unbiblical imposition of abstinence upon the consciences of all believers without exception. Also, just because it has been your experience that you've "Never seen anybody wih a couple of drinks...as clever as they thought they were...or restrained in careful in their speech or conduct" doesn't make it a measure of what is truth. Truth validates experience, not vice versa. If a Christian is acting unbecomingly or ungodly in any manner because of the effects of alcohol then he ought to be confronted by other believers and admonished to abstain, if/since he cannot control himself. That is, indeed, obviously not an area of liberty for him. But such does not apply to all Christians without exception, nor can the case of tee-totalling be biblically substantiated.

Again – you have gone beyond what I said, to argue against the warning – that use of alcohol, in any form, or amount, runs the risk of enslavement. It would be amusing, seeing all the “yes, buts” if it were not for the fact the church isn’t coping will with the multiplication of addictions – worship disorders.

 

[Kevin]

Alcohol consumption is not forbidden – but carries serious warnings -- given the problems in the 21st century caused by addictions, esp. among solidly reformed types, I wonder that so many still want their freedoms unhampered.

Wrong. "Alcohol consumption" does not carry warnings, Alcohol Abuse/drunkeness carries warnings.

What I wonder is why so many reformed types who love the scripture try to call what God calls a blessing a curse?

 

[Kevin]

Again – you have gone beyond what I said, to argue against the warning – that use of alcohol, in any form, or amount, runs the risk of enslavement. It would be amusing, seeing all the “yes, buts” if it were not for the fact the church isn’t coping will with the multiplication of addictions – worship disorders.

The church is coping with SIN not "addictions". (whatever they are)

 

[Theoretical]

The church is coping with SIN not "addictions". (whatever they are)

Biology may make some more prone to fall into certain sins, and for the sake of fleeing temptation they may have to abstain from some blessing or another, but they are ALWAYS responsible for their actions, even where biology makes it hard to be obedient.

I would say that the term addiction should only be applied to certain hard drugs where one gets profound and deadly physical effects from withdrawal (with crack babies for instance).