How Would You Handle This, Both Tactfully & Biblically?

[Mephibosheth]

[I put this in the Eschatology section because it involves Heaven and eternity. Mods, feel free to move this somewhere more appropriate if necessary.]

I mentioned on Puritan Board that my grandmother recently passed away. Though she was a relatively young Christian, I do believe she was saved. My grandfather is also a recent convert, and very enthusiastic. But there is an issue that bothers me quite a bit.

Apparently, he's read a book entitled 90 Minutes in Heaven by Don Piper. It's one of those "near death experience" stories, where the author claims to have died, visited Heaven, and returned to tell everyone what he saw. My grandfather is obsessed* with the book, and e-mailed me today to let me know he sent me a copy from Amazon. He's planning a trip here in May for my mom's birthday, and wants to "visit with [me] and talk about the book." We've spoken by phone several times this month, and he goes on an on about this book. He's never exactly had a filter, but he's been saying some weird stuff about death and Heaven after losing my grandmother.

At her funeral, he talked about having faith in Christ and seeing her again soon. But he referenced this book by name several times in his eulogy. No tears or visible sadness from him during the day. He was really upbeat. I know people grieve differently, but I'm afraid his pent up emotions will eventually explode and crush him.

He's so new in the faith, and has just lost his wife of 67 years. I don't want to hurt him or discourage him during a time when emotions are obviously bottled up and he is vulnerable. I have not read the book (I never would have, either), but I know things like this are sensational and written to make money, never mind the bad theology. My grandfather is fragile, both emotionally and physically. How do I point him to biblical truth about Heaven without coming off like a jerk?

I know I can't expect an 88-year old babe in Christ to have his theology hammered out, but it seems he's leaning more on this book than on the actual word of God. He doesn't question the details of this book, and I'm afraid it's going to suck him into bad teaching -- or crush him when he finds out it's not biblical.

[* When I say he's obsessed, I mean obsessed with this book. My grandfather takes everything labelled "Christian" as absolute truth, with very little discernment.]

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Hello Steve,

I'd be careful talking with your grandfather about this. First, you should know what the book says. Not all accounts of visits to heaven are false. John Bunyan had such an account; I have a small collection of others'. Below is an appraisal from someone in Christianity Today, and what I read did not sound negative (I could only read so far as I don't have a subscription – see the article below). Also I attach an early article from CT by Anthony Hoekema, "Heaven: Not Just an Eternal Day Off", adapted from his well-known book, The Bible and the Future (once the definitive text on eschatology in Reformed seminaries, I have heard).

The approach I would take is to find places in Scripture which talk of Heaven (which really is but an intermediate state where we are disembodied spirits – for after the resurrection we will have our glorified bodies, and then after the judgment we are transported to New Jerusalem on New Earth in our new bodies. Likely it is there we shall participate in the marriage supper of the Lamb [Rev 19:7-9]). Rather than you clashing with him, it could be an opportunity to open many Scriptures to him. And not only about the afterlife, but about what the Lord would have us know as regards how to live well in this life, and especially about learning to abide close to Jesus, who is shepherding us to the Celestial City.

Perhaps it is but a fleshly attraction to the book, but it may be the Lord is using it to grab his attention and affection – after all, he is aged, and with us old folks the Lord may work a little differently. It will be up to you to redirect those affections to the pure word of God.

His testimony on youtube (I haven't watched it yet).

I'll be glad to answer any more questions, Steve. As you are aware, your grandfather's soul is precious, and must be handled with care.

[Hoekema article below]

 

[Ed Walsh]

where the author claims to have died, visited Heaven, and returned to tell everyone what he saw.

Trying to be sensitive to what pastor Rafalsky said above, but at the same time I think the Scriptures are clear that these near-death experiences are just that--near-death, for: "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Hebrews 9:27)

I only mention this as one smooth stone for you to keep in mind as you weigh the wisdom of others in addressing your grandfather.

PS - If I am wrong about Heb. 9 I trust someone will point this out to me.

 

[C. M. Sheffield]

Stick close to the Bible when talking to your grandfather. If he goes on and on about the book, you try to take him to Scripture. I would urge you to have your Bible open on your lap, pointing out the relevant portions of Scripture. You might try to recommend to him a book that faithfully represents the Scripture's teaching on these things that would also be on his level of understanding.

Seize upon every opportunity to agree with anything he says that is true. And when disagreeing with him, couch it in the form of a question ("But is that consistent with what the Bible says here in book-chapter-verse?"). Our Lord was fond of asking questions and it can be a truly disarming way of disagreeing with someone.

Lastly, if you don't have to disagree with him on any given point, don't. Let smaller matters go and focus on the more important issues. Judging by the description you've given of your grandfather, he may say a great deal that is wrong or off-point but chasing all of these loose ends will prove fruitless in the end.

Success may not be him disavowing the book (however desirable that may be), but simply understanding the Scripture's doctrine and affirming it. Trying to "disprove" this book may only prove to be a red herring. Aim only at winning him to the clear teaching of Scripture about death, judgment, heaven, and hell.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

This is a review by Tim Challies of Piper's book, and not a positive one: https://www.challies.com/book-reviews/book-review-90-minutes-in-heaven/

 

[greenbaggins]

The best option might be simply to give him a better book. I have really enjoyed Alcorn's book on heaven, which, while a bit repetitive (and speculative in places, though never in a way that opposes Scripture outright), has an admirable focus on the physicality of the new heavens and new earth, as opposed to so much neo-Platonic ghosts-on-clouds-with-wings-playing-harps-for-eternity stuff.

When people have told me such stories, I usually tell them that I can neither deny nor affirm such experiences. I am rather skeptical of such experiences. However, to voice my skepticism too strongly would simply drive the person away. So, I simply listen, love, and then give them the best place to look. Baby Christians need to be directed in a loving way, as you already know, from the rather sensitive way you have already expressed the issue to us here on the PB.

 

[RamistThomist]

I am more open to near-death experiences than some (and a TR even accused me of being a non-Christian because of it), but I'm cautious when people give me specifics. We know for a fact that no one is allowed to give details of the 3rd heaven.

 

[arapahoepark]

I read it about a decade ago or so. What he describes is in one or two short chapters and it is not much. Just mostly those who went before him greeting him near the gates. The rest of the book is about his recovery and exploits after the fact.
Be sensitive for sure and stick close to the Bible. At least you got a little break with this one unlike Malarkey's, which was malarky ironically, or all of the kid's stuff. Piper's is a little more believable though certainly not Gospel.

 

[Jack K]

I don't tend to put much stock in these accounts. either. But be sure you don't pooh-pooh the greater cause for celebration here. Your grandfather has faith in Jesus and is looking forward to the life to come!

 

[Cedarbay]

Your grandfather has come to mind often since you asked us to pray for him, Steve. I get a little teary thinking about the blessing you are to him. Such wise words you've gotten here.

 

[George Bailey]

I would consider sharing the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, where Jesus specifically speaks against someone coming back from the dead as a way of making people see the truth. Just as He said, if they don't believe the scriptures, they're not going to believe a testimony... And elevating testimony above scriptures is idolatry.

 

[Cymro]

Whilst it might be a bit obvious to urge to prayer, I think that is the means to a satisfactory end. The fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much, and a true belief that there is Nothing too hard for the Lord quells the fear that is natural. Think not that it is a confrontation, but an opportunity. An opportunity that is providentially given. Be wise as a serpent and gentle as a dove, and the only sword to master the situation is the word of God. Lead him away from the arm of flesh to the omnipotent arm of God. A soft answer turneth away wrath, but grievous words stirreth up anger. Have scripture proofs stored up, but give in small doses, for by long forbearing is a prince persuaded, and a soft tongue breakthrough the bone. Will pray.

 

[Cymro]

Omitted to say with the Apostle, “For such were some of ye” . Ignorance is the mother of irrationality, as each of us can bear witness to.

 

[bookslover]

The best option might be simply to give him a better book. I have really enjoyed Alcorn's book on heaven, which, while a bit repetitive (and speculative in places, though never in a way that opposes Scripture outright), has an admirable focus on the physicality of the new heavens and new earth, as opposed to so much neo-Platonic ghosts-on-clouds-with-wings-playing-harps-for-eternity stuff.

When people have told me such stories, I usually tell them that I can neither deny nor affirm such experiences. I am rather skeptical of such experiences. However, to voice my skepticism too strongly would simply drive the person away. So, I simply listen, love, and then give them the best place to look. Baby Christians need to be directed in a loving way, as you already know, from the rather sensitive way you have already expressed the issue to us here on the PB.

Lane: You mean I won't have my own harp and my own cloud? Another dream crushed. Sigh. . .

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Ed, you said that if you were wrong about your understanding of Heb 9:27, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment", would someone point that out to you.

I would say this: a number of people we come across in the New Testament (and some in the OT) had died, and were raised again from the dead, by a prophet, or the Lord Jesus, or Peter, to live again before they finally died. So there is precedent that does allow what happened to Don Piper to keep him from running afoul of Heb 9:27. Did he really die in the accident? I don't know. It might well be.

Steve, I listened to a different testimony of his on youtube (not the one I posted above – I wanted to see him, not just listen to audio) and I had mixed feelings. There was no gospel in it. God did not play large in his account, as Challies noted in his review. And yet it might have happened. In this later youtube I post here, toward the end, before he prays, he quotes John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." The prayer is passable. Except for the one Scripture just quoted, I don't recall any other he referenced.

As I mentioned above – and others here as well – your task will be to redirect your grandfather's interest and affection to the Scriptures, and to the Lord Jesus, and away from the book. That is, pray with Him, bring him into the presence of the Saviour; read from Revelation 21 and 22 of the wonders of heaven and of the Lamb and God who are the light of it.

You could tell him that the Lord Jesus would want him to use the book as a stepping stone to the book that God wrote and to leave the former behind. You could read him stories about the Saviour in action while He dwelt among us, or stories from the OT, or the Psalms, etc. Try to get his interest and affection kindled by THE book, and the gracious God who gave us such a wonder as His own word from Heaven.

I'll be praying you be able to do this with God's help, Steve

 

[RamistThomist]

It would also help to study the nature of the soul and body-soul dualism. Many people on both sides of this debate really don't have a handle on what the soul structurally is (again, TRs have called me a Hindu non-Christian for pretty much expounding the Christian view of the soul).

 

[JimmyH]

Wiser minds than mine have already commented, but here are my thoughts. I feel much empathy for your grandfather, and for you in this position. What comes to my mind is Paul in 1 Corinthians 9 ;

19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. 20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. 22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

I can win the argument and lose the man. Yesterday evening our pastor preached on 1John 2:12-15. The Apostle addresses children, young men, and fathers. Our pastor pointed out that the Apostle is not referring to the chronological age of his flock, but their age in the new birth.
If your grandfather is in the 'little children' period of his salvation/sanctification he is not ready for meat, but for milk. I'll pray for you both.

 

[Deleted member 6112]

I am more open to near-death experiences than some

Would you like to arrange one?

 

[RamistThomist]

Would you like to arrange one?

That will soon be a blooming industry

https://gizadeathstar.com/2014/09/german-near-death-experiments-proof-life-death/

 

[Scottish Presbyterian]

Pardon my ignorance, but what are TRs?

It would also help to study the nature of the soul and body-soul dualism. Many people on both sides of this debate really don't have a handle on what the soul structurally is (again, TRs have called me a Hindu non-Christian for pretty much expounding the Christian view of the soul).

 

[RamistThomist]

Pardon my ignorance, but what are TRs?

Truly Reformed

 

[Scottish Presbyterian]

Truly Reformed

I see, follow up question: is there a group which takes this name to themselves (with the implication that those merely Reformed are actually Falsely Reformed), or is this a name given by those somewhat Reformed to those who are more Reformed? (I should point out that although I've grown up in a Reformed environment, my knowledge of all the different Reformed groups globally is really rather limited and I'm keen to improve it).

 

[Pilgrim]

I see, follow up question: is there a group which takes this name to themselves (with the implication that those merely Reformed are actually Falsely Reformed), or is this a name given by those somewhat Reformed to those who are more Reformed? (I should point out that although I've grown up in a Reformed environment, my knowledge of all the different Reformed groups globally is really rather limited and I'm keen to improve it).

In the American context, it generally refers to those who are strict subscriptionists to the Westminster Standards and who affirm the Regulative Principle of Worship. (That said, it generally is not a reference to Exclusive Psalmody.) I believe the term originated in the 1970s as a pejorative used by those in the PCA who were more broadly evangelical or who wished to have a bigger tent in which those who were Presbyterian but who were more broadly evangelical than strictly Reformed were welcome. They were probably affirmed TULIP etc. but preferred a denomination that allowed for more exceptions to the confessional standards and perhaps more "freedom" in worship.

 

[Edward]

I see, follow up question: is there a group which takes this name to themselves (with the implication that those merely Reformed are actually Falsely Reformed), or is this a name given by those somewhat Reformed to those who are more Reformed?

As noted above TR was given to the more rigid members of the PCA by those who were less rigid. TRs like to say it means 'Truly Reformed' (it can also stand for "Totally Reformed") and while it started out as a pejorative, like Cracker, it has been embraced by those it targeted. The corollary for TR is BR, which again can have two meanings - 'Broadly Reformed', or a more pejorative 'Barely Reformed'.

 

[JimmyH]

As noted above TR was given to the more rigid members of the PCA by those who were less rigid. TRs like to say it means 'Truly Reformed' (it can also stand for "Totally Reformed") and while it started out as a pejorative, like Cracker, it has been embraced by those it targeted. The corollary for TR is BR, which again can have two meanings - 'Broadly Reformed', or a more pejorative 'Barely Reformed'.

Reminiscent of the pejorative 'Puritan'.
I thought TR signified Textus Receptus Glad to see it defined.

 

[Edward]

I thought TR signified Textus Receptus

It can, in other contexts.

 

[RamistThomist]

I see, follow up question: is there a group which takes this name to themselves (with the implication that those merely Reformed are actually Falsely Reformed), or is this a name given by those somewhat Reformed to those who are more Reformed? (I should point out that although I've grown up in a Reformed environment, my knowledge of all the different Reformed groups globally is really rather limited and I'm keen to improve it).

Both

 

[Scottish Presbyterian]

Have a few more questions and thoughts but don't want to derail the thread