How Would You Know if The Tribulation Has Started

[nyjbarnes]

This can't be a new question; but from the best I can reason, until the Anti-Christ is revealed, the abomination that causes desolation occurs, I don't see a marking event that signals the beginning of the "tribulation"

Perhaps this is because I've been taught that it's 3.5 years or 7...and not 1000's of years.

I can't see anywhere that you can be certain that from the point of birth pangs (matthew 24), till full on trib, that you could know that it has or has not started.

Can anyone comment on this?

 

[Contra_Mundum]

Not too many dispensationalists on this board, brother.

 

[Kevin]

if you woke up in the morning & you were a Jew living in Jerusalem 1,940+/- years ago, and you saw a Roman army camped outside of the city, Then you would know that the Tribulation had started.

Short of that, all that you & I can do is read about how it happened.

 

[nyjbarnes]

Does that mean I shouldn't ask? Or that the answer is irrelevant?

Not too many dispensationalists on this board, brother.

 

[Notthemama1984]

It just means that most here believe the Tribulation happend around AD 70. John even mentions that he is participating in the tribulation (Rev. 1:9).

 

[CharlieJ]

Not too many dispensationalists on this board, brother.

There are a lot of views other than Dispensationalism that believe in a future Tribulation though, aren't there?

 

[Contra_Mundum]

Does that mean I shouldn't ask? Or that the answer is irrelevant?

Not too many dispensationalists on this board, brother.

No, it just means that you're not likely to get many responses that correlate to a "tribulational" understanding of end times that appears to be expressed in your OP (that seems to reflect a dispensational perspective).

I hope the thread proves useful to you.
Peace.

 

[O'GodHowGreatThouArt]

So if I understand this correctly, the Second Coming prerequisites have been fulfilled. It's just a matter of it actually happening at this point.

If I'm incorrect, feel free to correct me. I've been doing a bit of studying and discussion with a couple of friends on this matter.

 

[nyjbarnes]

SO then what of the 70th week of daniel and the information that's sealed up till the time of the end?

 

[lynnie]

There is not necessarily any correlation between being believeing in a final trib and being dispensational. Even Riddlebarger anticipates a possible one single man antichrist, and says that political Israel may very well be the means to Romans 11 being fulfilled. You can be covenantal and believe in a trib.

I am amil and believe that at the end there will be a final unloosing of Satan.

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and ajudgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

When Satan was bound, the gospel went from almost exclusively one nation to all over the earth. I do not believe we are at the time of the full unloosing- bad as Islam is- because the gospel is still penetrating all over, and much of the world has relative freedom of worship.

I read some good Gog- Magog root word analysis stuff that identifies the area with territory down near Turkey/Iraq and the "stans". If a fullblown war starts up there that draws in all the major powers ( USA, Russia, China, etc) and nukes start going off I'll be thinking it is trib time.

I think we could be close. When in history have there been all thse nations with nukes? And 2/3 of the world is tied into the electric grid for food, water, sewage, etc. A couple major solar flares or a nuclear exhange and we are talking about up to 4 billion people DYING.

I figure the persecution of Christians will be horrific. Maybe not even government, but the average angry mob. We'll be Hitlers Jews this time around. I read secular sites and the hatred and scapegoating of "Christians" for the worlds ills is scary.

So if I understand this correctly, the Second Coming prerequisites have been fulfilled. It's just a matter of it actually happening at this point.

We could be up to the 6th seal depending on how you read the seals and trumpets. 1/3 of the land and fresh water and air is poisoned easily.

Grudem says you can make a case that everything is fulfilled except for the sun turning to darkness and the moon to blood and maybe a couple last minute events that can happen pretty quick. His short chapter on this might be worth a quick review, I'll have to reread it myself.

 

[Southern Presbyterian]

Might I recommend this book to you....

Last Days Madness

This helped me clear up some of my thinking and shed the majority of my dispensational programming. But don't stop here. There are lots more good books out there.

 

[rbcbob]

How Would You Know if The Tribulation Has Started?

When Jack Chick isn't at his desk?

 

[jayce475]

How Would You Know if The Tribulation Has Started?

When Jack Chick isn't at his desk?

That's if one is a dispensational pre-trib premil.

Anyway, think we need someone well-versed in historic premil to help the OP.

 

[Iconoclast]

Hello Jb,
Welcome to the puritanboard. I was first taught that the rapture of the church would be the beginning of the tribulation period. then after 3.5 yrs the antichrist would break the covenant and start the great tribulation.
Then I studied Hebrews and Romans and Ephesians verse by verse and discovered that i could no longer hold that position. It contradicts too many passages.
Many here on the puritanboard have followed a similar path away from the dispensational premillennial scheme.
The idea of the church and Israel being two seperate people heavenly/earthly is a false idea. the kingdom has already begun [not a mystery form of] but the actual kingdom rule.
Most believers in church history were amillennial/postmillenial.
Daniel 9:24-27 speaks of Jesus not the antichrist
Most of Mt,24 was fulfilled by 70ad.
The rapture happens at the Last day.
Learn each of the positions accurately, then see which one seems more accurate. Serve the Lord following after holiness here and now.

 

[TimV]

To know when the Great Tribulation occurs, stay tuned to the FOX NEWS Channel.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

To know when the Great Tribulation occurs, stay tuned to the FOX NEWS Channel.

 

[OPC'n]

Parts of "Dispensationalism: Rightly Dividing the People of God?" by Keith A. Mathison and "The Last Days According to Jesus" by Sproul can help answer your questions. The whole book of these two books are very good but only parts of them answer your question. Very easy to read and interesting too!

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

G.K. Beale, in the IVP NT Commentary Series, 1-2 Thessalonians, has a succinct take on it:

Thus, Paul is saying that even now the false teachers who have been prophesied by Daniel and Jesus are with us. The prophecy of the “apostasy” and coming of the “man of lawlessness” has started to be fulfilled. Indeed, the sign of Jesus’ death together with what 1 John 2:18 and 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 have said makes it clear that the Great Tribulation, when antichrist would come, has already begun to take place. The prophesied latter-day temple has already started to appear in the form of the church community (see on 2:4), into which 2:7 says the antichrist has already begun to enter and defile. Daniel predicted that there would be two telltale marks of the Great Tribulation: persecution and deception through false teachers within the covenant community, which especially corrupts and defiles the temple. It is clear that persecution and deception started in the first century and have continued ever since, so the Great Tribulation has been going on throughout the age of the church. To be sure, this tribulation has not yet reached its climax. There will be an escalation of the present tribulation when the last individual, incarnate antichrist appears. At that time, persecution and deception, which have formerly affected only part of the church, will be present throughout the worldwide church, at which point Christ will return (see Rev 11:1-13; 20:1-10). (pp. 219, 220)

This understanding reflects the amil — or presently realized millennium — position. William Hendriksen's More than Conquerors and Dennis Johnson's Triumph of the Lamb are good amil commentaries on Revelation to start with. I would also recommend Kim Riddlebarger's The Man of Sin: Uncovering the Truth About the Antichrist.

 

[nyjbarnes]

Perhaps I should have told you guys what I believe first. I feel like I'm walking into a room full of battle hardened pilgrims and I'm an alien. I'm not familiar with the customs, language and traditions.

I was raised baptist and taught pre-trib rapture, 7 year trib, 1000 year mil reign, you go to heaven when you die, you're saved because you say the words, you're not saved if you sin too much....yadda

Then I became reformed and have backed my way into shrugging all of that off. Trying to root out what is a false paradigm and teaching one by one. So naturally, after I stopped being an armenean, I decided, I wonder how much of my end-times knowledge has issues....

I don't believe in a rapture, I can't really comment on a millenial reign...though it seems pretty certain. Just don't know when. I don't believe Israel and Gentiles are seperate, I think Paul makes this abundantly clear. So I'm left with, I don't really know what I think is true about prophecy and future events or what to expect.

I stumbled across this question because I have friends and have seen youtube videos of end-times stuff...and once I read the Bible almost all the way through, I realized, there would be NO way to tell (if you believe in a 7 year trib) that you were in it, or it started. There's no definite starting point...only a definite ending point. It's all circumspect anecdotal guessing. That doesn't sound like the God I've come to know, so sounds like I've got something wrong. So I'm here.

Hope this help clarify my position and the reason for my question.

 

[Turtle]

Perhaps I should have told you guys what I believe first. ....

Only if you were looking for an evaluation of your beliefs. Your OP appeared to be an interest in what the scripture describes about the tribulation. It appeared to be a reasonable question to search what the scripture says.

If you get a good handle on what the scripture says about what it looks like then you can evaluate any proposition that the tribulation already happened or be prepared to evaluate any future claims that it has started.

Of note the answer of scripture you cite begins with "Let no man deceive you for many shall come in my name, saying I am Christ, and deceive many." A warning against being deceived was the first concern. If that is the right context, why describe the tribulation?

It seems to me He goes on to describe circumstance that would wear them out and cause them to faint and would make them more hopeful of Christ's return to deliver them. It seems the distresses He speaks of beforehand would make them more susceptible to being deceived... Or more apt to loose heart and wishfully accept a false Christ, rather than to endure. "The love of many shall wax cold, but he that endures to the end shall be saved." It seems He tells them these things beforehand so that they are wary of false Christs and to have the assurance to endure until He comes. In other words, in addition to your consideration of what does the Tribulation look like, I also think there is value in considering "Why does its description matter?"

In comparing 2 Thess 2 I see striking similarities. There is concern that "no man deceive you" and concern to "be not soon shaken in mind, be not troubled" as though Christ had already come. There will be a falling away and there will be lies and deceiving, someone will sit in the temple of God and show himself that he is God... but they are encouraged to stand fast, or endure. Some might point out that a man sitting in the temple of God showing himself that he is God is a thing to raise hopes, because the Lord will shortly destroy him with the brightness of His coming, thus redemption would be nigh. Or maybe the striking similarities are entirely coincidental.

Take heart if people don't readily agree with your beliefs or hastily apply labels. I have learned far more about the scripture when people have disagreed with me than when they agreed. Spending time with friends that disagree with my beliefs about the scriptures really forces me to evaluate if I am quoting approved commentators and authors or if I really have a grasp of what I believe and where it comes from.

Welcome aboard.

Bryan