TylerRay
Puritan Board Graduate
You should try proving your position from Scripture. Before you do, though, read through the rest of the thread. No sense beating a dead horse.
Leading to Christ
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TylerRay
Puritan Board Graduate
Ed Walsh
Puritan Board Senior
Believe it or not, I agree with you for the most part. No one should appoint themselves a preacher or an evangelist or even a generic Bible teacher. But I have always thought it was OK to share the Gospel in a lesser capacity.
Perhaps the following story will help you understand why I am, humanly speaking, a little bias towards every man a witness. Are we not all the salt of the world?
What I am about to relate was not a matter of false expectations but rather a real-life experience in the early days of my faith. My wife and I take no credit at all for this story because we found ourselves in the midsts of a mini-revival that took place in the early 70's in my area of the Eastern USA. God was working at least in Washington New Jersey in those days.
We were involved with a church that encouraged witnessing, and we did just that. We fasted and prayed then hit the streets with Bible and tracts in hand speaking to anyone who would listen. When the dust cleared, about a year afterward, dozens of people professed faith in the Christ. My evidence that this was in many to most cases true faith is that they repented of their outward sins, joined the church, most got married and raised their children in the Lord, and are still following Jesus to this day. Over a dozen went on to become elders, deacons, and several became gospel ministers. We weren't preaching exactly, just sharing the Bible and our personal experiences as Christians. There were only about four or five of us that made the difference. Acts 17:16-17
The stories I could tell... I could write a book, but then again, if you are correct I have no business writing my memories for what we did was both wrong and pointless because useless.
was the great Commission just given to officials in the local churches, or to all Christians?
TylerRay
Puritan Board Graduate
Read post 96.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
I mentioned that in my post # 75
Ask Mr. Religion
Flatly Unflappable
Brother,
Let's make sure we are on the same page as related to the priesthood of believers. Distinguishing or implying the concept as particular to "we Baptists" is overly restrictive—especially given the tenor of our site—as all Reformed certainly affirm the priesthood of believers.
The priesthood of believers necessarily means the catholic (lowercase "c") tradition through which certain truths are held by true believers because true believers are taught by God the Holy Spirit speaking in Scripture.
I agree totally with that, as was just trying to see why someone would not see that in the scripture being presented. Not meant to offend anyone, or state that only baptists held to that being true.
earl40
Puritan Board Professor
As mentioned earlier did you only perform 1/2 of The Great Commission? If not why did you not baptize as commanded?
I ask not to confront in a way to bring offence personally to you, just to bring offence to the thought that you were doing what Our Lord commanded the apostles and Pastors by extension in TGC.
Ask Mr. Religion
Flatly Unflappable
Have you examined the passage, Matthew 28:19-20, carefully?
Are all to make disciples by baptizing and teaching, wherein baptizing and teaching are participles of means—for "making disciples"—in the passage?
Ed Walsh
Puritan Board Senior
In a lesser way, we were "commissioned" and trained by our pastor and sent with the blessing of the leadership. We were young and were just doing what we were told we should.
BTW - Just have to ask. Are you a minister? If not why are you teaching us as though you were. And as you said above. No offense meant. Just curious.
earl40
Puritan Board Professor
I am not a Minister nor am I called to be one. I am simply a rusty shard of iron trying to sharpen iron.
What I am conveying is what I have learned from other Pastors, and am grieved many Pastors wish to lay the duty of evangelism or preaching to the laity (there is no other way to pharse this BTW) which is not their calling.
Ask Mr. Religion
Flatly Unflappable
Moderator Note:
David,
Well if this is what you meant, then why not take the time to carefully craft your responses to make your meaning perspicuous? Written communication affords us the opportunity to be very clear about our intentions. Even our emotions, often not explicit as they would be in face-to-face communications, can be signaled by some careful use of emoticons in written communications herein.
Unfortunately, it is too often the case that when your posts are questioned for clarification, you offer up something along the lines of what I have just quoted: basically walking back your original comments.
If you find yourself regularly having to rejoin to others, "what I meant to say", then my advice to you—or anyone else that this may apply—would be to carefully examine your written words before submitting them for consideration by your audience. Also, as I have previously advised you, slow down and look at the post you have just submitted before moving onward and considering if some edits (spelling, grammar, punctuation, intended meaning, etc.) need to be made to your submitted post.
Ed Walsh
Puritan Board Senior
I just read over these pages from:
INSTITUTES OF ELENCTIC THEOLOGY
by Francis Turretin
TWENTY-THIRD QUESTION
Of how many kinds is the call to the ministry and is an ordinary call always necessary?
We distinguish.
At least some of what he says may add to our discussion. I hope so.
I made a PDF and uploaded it for your enjoyment.
INSTITUTES OF ELENCTIC THEOLOGY
by Francis Turretin
TWENTY-THIRD QUESTION
Of how many kinds is the call to the ministry and is an ordinary call always necessary?
We distinguish.
At least some of what he says may add to our discussion. I hope so.
I made a PDF and uploaded it for your enjoyment.
Gforce9
Puritan Board Junior
Ed,
I hope to acquire and read Turretin. I hear he dismantled de Molina's Middle knowledge.........
Last edited:
Ed Walsh
Puritan Board Senior
Here's an excerpt on middle knowledge.
timfost
Puritan Board Senior
Some thoughts:
Scott,
If I'm understanding you correctly, you equate evangelism with the office of evangelist. However, it does not seem to logically follow that evangelism proceeds only from the ordained. For example, we have teaching elders, but it doesn't follow that no one but teaching elders can teach in all circumstances. Likewise, it is difficult to logically link all evangelism to the work of an evangelist. If we love the evangel, we should present people with the evangel.
Tyler,
You mentioned that it was the job of an ordained minister to call people to faith and repentance, not the laity. But do you call your children to faith and repentance, or can you do that because they are part of the covenant? If someone asks me, "what must I do to be saved," I'm not going to say "talk to my pastor." I'm also not going to say, "my pastor would say that you need to repent and believe." I would call on them to repent and believe. Would you do the same? So I can better understand you, what would you do in this circumstance?
Jeri,
I completely understand part of your concern about modern evangelism. We should absolutely not promote religious individualism. As I affirmed before, evangelism proceeds from the organized church. I think we're in agreement on this. The article you recommended seems, at least in part, to be countering modern evangelical individualism. In that capacity, I agree with the concern.
Ed,
Thanks for providing Turretin. Wonderful stuff!
________________________
Are we to promote God's law both in public and private? If so, does God's law demand faith and repentance? Again, as those who speak for God and partake in Christ's anointing, a product of loving God's law is to encourage others to obey it. This necessarily includes calling people to faith and repentance.
Christ says:
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you..." (Matt. 28:19-20a)
Christ commanded us to "love your neighbor as yourself." Isn't it loving to call our neighbors to faith and repentance? How can we fulfill the royal law if we do not call others to obey it in its fullness?
Nowhere that I'm aware of in scripture is this restricted to the ordained. Shouldn't we be very careful not to teach as doctrines the commandments of men?
Scott,
If I'm understanding you correctly, you equate evangelism with the office of evangelist. However, it does not seem to logically follow that evangelism proceeds only from the ordained. For example, we have teaching elders, but it doesn't follow that no one but teaching elders can teach in all circumstances. Likewise, it is difficult to logically link all evangelism to the work of an evangelist. If we love the evangel, we should present people with the evangel.
Tyler,
You mentioned that it was the job of an ordained minister to call people to faith and repentance, not the laity. But do you call your children to faith and repentance, or can you do that because they are part of the covenant? If someone asks me, "what must I do to be saved," I'm not going to say "talk to my pastor." I'm also not going to say, "my pastor would say that you need to repent and believe." I would call on them to repent and believe. Would you do the same? So I can better understand you, what would you do in this circumstance?
Jeri,
I completely understand part of your concern about modern evangelism. We should absolutely not promote religious individualism. As I affirmed before, evangelism proceeds from the organized church. I think we're in agreement on this. The article you recommended seems, at least in part, to be countering modern evangelical individualism. In that capacity, I agree with the concern.
Ed,
Thanks for providing Turretin. Wonderful stuff!
________________________
Are we to promote God's law both in public and private? If so, does God's law demand faith and repentance? Again, as those who speak for God and partake in Christ's anointing, a product of loving God's law is to encourage others to obey it. This necessarily includes calling people to faith and repentance.
Christ says:
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you..." (Matt. 28:19-20a)
Christ commanded us to "love your neighbor as yourself." Isn't it loving to call our neighbors to faith and repentance? How can we fulfill the royal law if we do not call others to obey it in its fullness?
Nowhere that I'm aware of in scripture is this restricted to the ordained. Shouldn't we be very careful not to teach as doctrines the commandments of men?
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
WCF:
Ch 7
VI. Under the gospel, when Christ the substance was exhibited, the ordinances in which this covenant is dispensed, are the preaching of the Word, and the administration of the sacraments of Baptism and the Lord’s Supper; which, though fewer in number, and administered with more simplicity and less outward glory, yet in them it is held forth in more fullness, evidence, and spiritual efficacy, to all nations, both Jews and Gentiles; and is called the New Testament. There are not, therefore, two covenants of grace differing in substance, but one and the same under various dispensations.
The above links preaching with the distribution of the sacraments
Ch 21
V. The reading of the Scriptures with godly fear; the sound preaching, and conscionable hearing of the Word, in obedience unto God with understanding, faith, and reverence; singing of psalms with grace in the heart; as, also, the due administration and worthy receiving of the sacraments instituted by Christ; are all parts of the ordinary religious worship of God: besides religious oaths, and vows, solemn fastings, and thanksgivings upon special occasion; which are, in their several times and seasons, to be used in an holy and religious manner.
The above links preaching w/ 'due administration'.
Ch 23
III. The civil magistrate may not assume to himself the administration of the Word and sacraments, or the power of the keys of the kingdom of heaven: yet he hath authority, and it is his duty, to take order, that unity and peace be preserved in the Church, that the truth of God be kept pure and entire; that all blasphemies and heresies be suppressed; all corruptions and abuses in worship and discipline prevented or reformed; and all the ordinances of God duly settled, administered, and observed. For the better effecting whereof, he hath power to call synods, to be present at them, and to provide that whatsoever is transacted in them be according to the mind of God.
The above condemns a non-ordained man to assume 'to himself the administration of the word and sacraments'. This would include preaching.
Ch 27
IV. There be only two sacraments ordained by Christ our Lord in the gospels, that is to say, Baptism and the Supper of the Lord: neither or which may be dispensed by any but a minister of the Word, lawfully ordained.
'Minister of the word' says much. The distinction between a 'minister of the word' and one who is not a 'minister of the word' must be considered. If I read the word to my family, I am not administering the M of G, nor am I preaching to them. I am exhorting, witnessing, educating as a parent is called to do.
Ch 28
II. The outward element to be used in the sacrament is water, wherewith the party is to be baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, by a minister of the gospel, lawfully called thereunto.
Since the sacraments are a means of grace and can only be distributed by an ordained man, 'called thereunto', it would follow that preaching falls under the same criteria.
From the Directory for the Publick worship of God:
Of the Preaching of the Word.
PREACHING of the word, being the power of God unto salvation, and one of the greatest and most excellent works belonging to the ministry of the gospel, should be so performed, that the workman need not be ashamed, but may save himself, and those that hear him.
It is presupposed, (according to the rules for ordination,) that the minister of Christ is in some good measure gifted for so weighty a service, by his skill in the original languages, and in such arts and sciences as are handmaids unto divinity; by his knowledge in the whole body of theology, but most of all in the holy scriptures, having his senses and heart exercised in them above the common sort of believers; and by the illumination of God’s Spirit, and other gifts of edification, which (together with reading and studying of the word) he ought still to seek by prayer, and an humble heart, resolving to admit and receive any truth not yet attained, whenever God shall make it known unto him. All which he is to make use of, and improve, in his private preparations, before he deliver in public what he hath provided.
Ch 7
VI. Under the gospel, when Christ the substance was exhibited, the ordinances in which this covenant is dispensed, are the preaching of the Word, and the administration of the sacraments of Baptism and the Lord’s Supper; which, though fewer in number, and administered with more simplicity and less outward glory, yet in them it is held forth in more fullness, evidence, and spiritual efficacy, to all nations, both Jews and Gentiles; and is called the New Testament. There are not, therefore, two covenants of grace differing in substance, but one and the same under various dispensations.
The above links preaching with the distribution of the sacraments
Ch 21
V. The reading of the Scriptures with godly fear; the sound preaching, and conscionable hearing of the Word, in obedience unto God with understanding, faith, and reverence; singing of psalms with grace in the heart; as, also, the due administration and worthy receiving of the sacraments instituted by Christ; are all parts of the ordinary religious worship of God: besides religious oaths, and vows, solemn fastings, and thanksgivings upon special occasion; which are, in their several times and seasons, to be used in an holy and religious manner.
The above links preaching w/ 'due administration'.
Ch 23
III. The civil magistrate may not assume to himself the administration of the Word and sacraments, or the power of the keys of the kingdom of heaven: yet he hath authority, and it is his duty, to take order, that unity and peace be preserved in the Church, that the truth of God be kept pure and entire; that all blasphemies and heresies be suppressed; all corruptions and abuses in worship and discipline prevented or reformed; and all the ordinances of God duly settled, administered, and observed. For the better effecting whereof, he hath power to call synods, to be present at them, and to provide that whatsoever is transacted in them be according to the mind of God.
The above condemns a non-ordained man to assume 'to himself the administration of the word and sacraments'. This would include preaching.
Ch 27
IV. There be only two sacraments ordained by Christ our Lord in the gospels, that is to say, Baptism and the Supper of the Lord: neither or which may be dispensed by any but a minister of the Word, lawfully ordained.
'Minister of the word' says much. The distinction between a 'minister of the word' and one who is not a 'minister of the word' must be considered. If I read the word to my family, I am not administering the M of G, nor am I preaching to them. I am exhorting, witnessing, educating as a parent is called to do.
Ch 28
II. The outward element to be used in the sacrament is water, wherewith the party is to be baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, by a minister of the gospel, lawfully called thereunto.
Since the sacraments are a means of grace and can only be distributed by an ordained man, 'called thereunto', it would follow that preaching falls under the same criteria.
From the Directory for the Publick worship of God:
Of the Preaching of the Word.
PREACHING of the word, being the power of God unto salvation, and one of the greatest and most excellent works belonging to the ministry of the gospel, should be so performed, that the workman need not be ashamed, but may save himself, and those that hear him.
It is presupposed, (according to the rules for ordination,) that the minister of Christ is in some good measure gifted for so weighty a service, by his skill in the original languages, and in such arts and sciences as are handmaids unto divinity; by his knowledge in the whole body of theology, but most of all in the holy scriptures, having his senses and heart exercised in them above the common sort of believers; and by the illumination of God’s Spirit, and other gifts of edification, which (together with reading and studying of the word) he ought still to seek by prayer, and an humble heart, resolving to admit and receive any truth not yet attained, whenever God shall make it known unto him. All which he is to make use of, and improve, in his private preparations, before he deliver in public what he hath provided.
earl40
Puritan Board Professor
So if all are commanded to call people to faith and repentance and to obey all His commandments why are all not baptizing which is also commanded? Do you do all what Jesus commands?
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
If one looks at the scriptures systematically, applying the appropriate doctrines in the systematic fashion, aligning those doctrines as the scriptures are exegeted in a correct manner, when questionable terms come to the forefront, applying these systematic definitions will always clarify how these terms are being intended and used. For example, when we see the term preach, preacher, preaching, etc., if we apply the mentality that these terms automatically fall under a church polity, it can be clearly seen that these statements are to be interpreted along the lines of said polity; what we have otherwise, is anarchy-which is quite visible in this age. As it was mentioned earlier in this thread, go back 200 years or so and u cannot find any of these issues.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Definitions and terminology:
Again, I will say; this all just comes down to calling a thing what it is...everyone can keep 'keeping on', just make sure you call the thing what it truly is.
Again, I will say; this all just comes down to calling a thing what it is...everyone can keep 'keeping on', just make sure you call the thing what it truly is.
To be clear you are saying that the Confession teaches that the the means of Grace are limited to ordained Ministers? No one can be saved except by the preaching of a ordained Reformed Minister? What you are saying would exclude salvation for a lot of people who were saved in bad churches. A person could never be saved in a evangelical/charismatic church, or for that matter any church that is not a true church?
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
As I have mentioned (as well as some others) earlier, if preaching is ever divorced from the actual means of grace and those that are lawful in it's distribution, is it ok for women to preach on street corners and if so, what if someone asks to be baptized? Did the commission ever imply that it is ok for one to solely preach, divorced from the ability to place water on recipients?
The commission tells us to make disciples by baptizing them and to follow what Christ has said.
The commission tells us to make disciples by baptizing them and to follow what Christ has said.
Another way to think of all this is the proposal that a regulative principle applies to all we seek to do and undertake for God. So that in corporate worship we don't just make it up- we seek to know from Scripture the specific things God has commanded in public worship. Outside of public worship, we know that God has also prescribed regulations, which include restrictions, in evangelism- non-ordained men don't baptize. So the ide of positive commands and also prohibitions is already there as pertains to evangelism. The duty then is to search the Scriptures to find out God's will. As Scott and others have said, the regulative principle for evangelism is found out to be, when a systematic study is done, that the preaching of the gospel and conversion of men is everywhere expected to be accomplished by ordained, sent men. The duties of lay people are also outlined and have been gone over several times in our thread.
This is not curmudgeonly, hyper-Calvinistic meanies trying to inhibit the spread of the gospel. This is a seeking to know God's prescribed order so that the greatest fruit for the gospel may be borne. It always has to be repeated- lay people should speak warmly of Christ whenever they have an opening, should commend him to others, should tell of the great things God has done for them and invite them to come to the waters and drink, come to those who minister the message of reconciliation and hear for themselves. Whatever is done in lay witnessing, keep that distinction.
This is not curmudgeonly, hyper-Calvinistic meanies trying to inhibit the spread of the gospel. This is a seeking to know God's prescribed order so that the greatest fruit for the gospel may be borne. It always has to be repeated- lay people should speak warmly of Christ whenever they have an opening, should commend him to others, should tell of the great things God has done for them and invite them to come to the waters and drink, come to those who minister the message of reconciliation and hear for themselves. Whatever is done in lay witnessing, keep that distinction.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Bill,
No. I am not saying that. Surely, God uses the M of G primarily; as we can see in the confession, " The visible Church....out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation." ch 25
However, when we 'share' truth (we don't preach), give witness, etc. we are speaking truth and God can use it to convert men. This is not typical, mind you as we can see in Rom's ch 10, God uses the preacher:
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ro 10:13–15.
But, no one has said in this thread anything contrary; ultimately, we have just pressed definitions and terminology. The commission is akin to the body local; it would not function properly without the pinky toe-we all play a part; however, technically speaking, when we refer to Matt 28, we are referring to the biblical hierarchy and how that polity functions and works it's way down to that toe, in particular.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Truth is truth; it doesn't matter if it is given by a full blown Arminian that reads, verbatim, from God's bible-men will be saved as God regenerates those even in aberrant settings; consider Roman Catholicism; the priest reads the gospel; God uses it to convert men-they eventually leave this aberrant setting. The same can be said of anyone who reads, witnesses, etc. Just don't call it preaching. ;P
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
I have an issue with this statement, Earl. Since the means only works through the ordained, I would say what I do personally is not that; to be technically accurate. If I am reading to my daughter and she is converted under it, it is the HS distributing the means of grace, not I.
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