Leading to Christ

[Ed Walsh]

This entire thread about the obligation, and the mistaken idea you and I as laypersons are obligated to the task of evangelism. I am sorry but as alluded to previously the "ordinary" way people come to Jesus is by preaching (which Our Lord can use the preachers in the scripture BTW). Any other extraordinary way, such as a dorm buddy who thinks they "led" (this for Josh) another to Christ, speaks against Romans 10:14

Hi Earl,
I am still in the midst of reading through all the posts so if what I say has been mentioned before please understand.

Here's a question: Does your view of Romans 10:14 bar parents from "preaching" teaching the gospel to their children? What about "masters" and servants?

Deuteronomy 6:6-7
6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.

Q. 29. What are the duties of masters to their servants?
A. To be meek and gentle towards them, forbearing threatening, Eph. 6:9; to instruct them in the principles of religion, Gen. 18:19; to see to their external observance of the Sabbath, Ex. 20:10; and to pay them punctually their wages, Deut. 24:15. (Fisher's Catechism)

What about the third commandment and the duty of the father or other head of the household to enforce the Sabbath? Must he do this without the gospel?

Exodus 20:10
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

BTW - I agree that laymen should never set themselves up as or proclaim himself a preacher with a congregation under him, etc. But to not share the gospel, if one is able, is going against the tenor of Scripture and all that it means to be human. What did the early Christians go the lions for? Did they say nothing? Were they supposed to say nothing? I also agree that there should be no guilt trip placed on every member of the congregation to be a "preacher." In some instances, perhaps, some people should be dissuaded from sharing the gospel. But to think that a Christian can say just about anything EXCEPT the gospel is a bit strange to me.

Luke 6:45
A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

Acts 4:20
For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.

To think that I am forbidden from explaining the gospel to a friend or employee in the hope that God will grant repentance would be as unnatural for me as a fish out of the water.

 

[earl40]

Hi Earl,
I am still in the midst of reading through all the posts so if what I say has been mentioned before please understand.

I understand because this thread is a tad long and many of your questions are answered in previous posts.

Here's a question: Does your view of Romans 10:14 bar parents from "preaching" teaching the gospel to their children? What about "masters" and servants?.

Notice how you use the word preaching with quotation marks. This tells me you are using it a qualified sense which is good and I approve of. This was addressed by my quote from Pastor Winzer in an earlier post which should be enlightening to all here. For to use the words Preach and evangelizing in the biblical sense is limited to Pastors alone in scripture and their duty.

BTW - I agree that laymen should never set themselves up as or proclaim himself a preacher with a congregation under him, etc. But to not share the gospel, if one is able, is going against the tenor of Scripture and all that it means to be human. What did the early Christians go the lions for? Did they say nothing? Were they supposed to say nothing? I also agree that there should be no guilt trip placed on every member of the congregation to be a "preacher." In some instances, perhaps, some people should be dissuaded from sharing the gospel. But to think that a Christian can say just about anything EXCEPT the gospel is a bit strange to me.

This has been answered earlier and no one is saying that one may not share The Gospel. Though to expect God to work out salvation via unbiblical means (Romans 10:14) is in my opinion unbiblical.

To think that I am forbidden from explaining the gospel to a friend or employee in the hope that God will grant repentance would be as unnatural for me as a fish out of the water.

One must jump out of the water to see how God works through the means He has prescribed in scripture, which is prescribed exclusively to the ordained Pastor.

 

[BG]

One must jump out of the water to see how God works through the means He has prescribed in scripture, which is prescribed exclusively to the ordained Pastor.

The exclusivity of the Bishopry, or the divine right of Bishops? If only the Bible was in Latin, then we would not have to worry about the rabble thinking they should minister to others. If only Rome had been willing to reform just a little we could put some of these people on the Rack

MT 5:15
Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

PS 96:1-3
Oh sing to the LORD a new song;
sing to the LORD, all the earth!
Sing to the LORD, bless his name;
tell of his salvation from day to day.
Declare his glory among the nations,
his marvelous works among all the peoples!
For great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised;

James 5:19-20

My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Prov 11:30 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life and whoever captures souls is wise

Phm 1:6
and I pray that the sharing of your faith may become effective for the full knowledge of every good thing that is in us for the sake of Christ.

 

[Jeri Tanner]

Charles G. Dennison, "Evangelism and the Church" (https://opc.org/os.html?article_id=158&issue_id=46):

"Without a doubt, great differences exist within the church concerning evangelism. I have endeavored to approach the subject with reverence knowing that many recent voices of the Reformed tradition disagree with me. Therefore, my desire is to treat this subject with charity.

"Important, at the outset, is an affirmation of my commitment to the evangelistic ministry of the church. On two occasions I have presented my position (once in Sewickley and once in Pittsburgh); each time people have left to bear tales about what they thought I said. To their way of thinking, I oppose evangelism. This is untrue. The question is not whether evangelism should be done, but how and by whom. Invariably, many who disagree with me conclude I do not believe in evangelism simply because I do not accept their personal view of it.

"In order to focus the discussion, let me enumerate my chief concerns. First is that of the church (people of God) and the Word. The people of God have been made to suffer guilt and frustration because they have been placed beneath a burden the Word never intended them to bear. Evangelicals of our day have been convinced that the individual members have an obligatory and definite evangelistic calling which involves them directly in presenting the gospel to the unregenerate. I believe this position to be unscriptural and that it has not only injured the evangelistic ministry of the church but confused the body of Christ with regard to its proper obligations.

"The second chief concern is that of church and office. Major tragedies have been created for the church because of a blurring of biblical office. In jeopardy is the biblical position on calling. The Reformation tenet, "the priesthood of all believers," has been mishandled so as to teach that the laity is welcomed to all the responsibilities of the ordained. Such a position results in disintegration not because of a simple violation of order but because of disobedience."

This quote really doesn't do justice to the entire, brief article by Charles Dennison. He goes into the historic Reformed view including the duties of lay people, and how our modern day view of evangelism has hurt the cause of the gospel's going forth; how our view of the church has disintegrated and the consequences; and more. Understanding what's being argued here does not bring restriction on the going forth of the gospel; it brings great freedom and causes that going forth to flourish.

 

[Jeri Tanner]

How would you answer the person who says they were lead (edit to led) to Jesus and saved by the conversation of a coworker or dorm buddy? I ask in light of Romans 10:14 which in my opinion is exclusive to preachers. In other words, does not Romans 10:14 exclude such thinking that one can believe without a preacher?

It helps to consider context. Paul is asking, "How will peoples who've not heard the gospel be reached if no preacher is sent?"

So on the context of Romans 10; at first as I thought about it, the way Jack put it, that Paul is asking, "How will peoples who've not heard...", put me in mind of far-flung missionary enterprises; so that we think of foreign lands in terms of needing a preacher to be sent, while the work of evangelism close to home can be done by laity and ordained ministry alike.

But Paul's context isn't talking about that. He's talking about pastors being sent, not as we think about it to far-off lands, but in the sense of being ordained and commissioned. 'Laborers sent forth for the harvest' (Luke 10:2). Paul's mission field, specifically, in Romans 10 is the Gentiles, who were both nearby and next door, and also far away.

So in my thinking, Romans 10 does claim that the right and effective hearing of the gospel does depend on a sent laborer, I.e. a sent preacher of the gospel; being sent not having to do primarily with travel, necessarily, but with commission.

Again, this is not to say that all believers including laity may not speak to others about Christ!! Edit to add: that I believe as I know do all of us, that God does use our words with others even as he uses our way of life lived out before others. We have biblical duties found in Scripture to speak to others in our households and in our church. And to those outside both institutions, we may speak in all kinds of ways to all kinds of people about Christ.

 

[TylerRay]

I'm surprised that I haven't seen much discussion on this thread of the passage that contains the clearest expression of the commission to preach the gospel. I mean that passage in Matthew 28 that we call the Great Commission. Note the language used there:

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (vv18-20)

Note that the commission involves two elements: teaching and baptizing. That is, the ministry of the Word and sacraments. If this text is to be our paradigm for evangelism (and I think most would admit that it is), then it is clear that the ones commissioned to evangelize are the ministers of the Evangel.

 

[timfost]

Calvin on Rom. 10:14:

"No other word has he mentioned here but that which is preached, because it is the ordinary mode which the Lord has appointed for conveying his word. But were any on this account to contend that God cannot transfer to men the knowledge of himself, except by the instrumentality of preaching, we deny that to teach this was the Apostle's intention; for he had only in view the ordinary dispensation of God, and did not intend to prescribe a law for the distribution of his grace."

If Calvin is correct, this would moot the OP.

 

[Jeri Tanner]

Calvin on Room. 10:14:

"No other word has he mentioned here but that which is preached, because it is the ordinary mode which the Lord has appointed for conveying his word. But were any on this account to contend that God cannot transfer to men the knowledge of himself, except by the instrumentality of preaching, we deny that to teach this was the Apostle's intention; for he had only in view the ordinary dispensation of God, and did not intend to prescribe a law for the distribution of his grace."

If Calvin is correct, this would moot the OP.

"It is true that Calvin spoke often of what we might call "lay witnessing." Although there is no such notion in the Institutes, many references are found throughout his sermons and commentaries.[11] But to be fair to Calvin, his position, while including the act of speaking up for Christ, was the witness of the total life of the believer rather than that of a specialized program or isolated segment of one's schedule.

"Proof that Calvin's emphasis is out of step with the contemporary evangelical understanding of evangelism is the general lack of patience among evangelicals for Calvin at this point. Evangelicals may find an occasional encouragement in Calvin's work but, admittedly, the emphasis lies elsewhere.

"As the Reformed position developed, the laity were seen under obligation to work hard, do good, attend the means of grace, give cheerfully, and pray incessantly. Such "reverent behavior," not excluding the good word for Jesus, would hopefully have effect upon one's neighbor (Heidelberg Catechism, Question 86); but the focus was upon righteous living, not aggressive evangelism. In this way, the people of God are salt, light, and a city set on a hill (Matt. 5:13-16). And what about evangelism and preaching of the gospel? In the mind of the Reformed church, that task belonged to the ordained (The Second Helvetic Confession, 18)." (From the article by Dennison I linked to above.)

I would add that commentaries are good but only insofar as they agree with Scripture.

 

[TylerRay]

Calvin on Room. 10:14:

"No other word has he mentioned here but that which is preached, because it is the ordinary mode which the Lord has appointed for conveying his word. But were any on this account to contend that God cannot transfer to men the knowledge of himself, except by the instrumentality of preaching, we deny that to teach this was the Apostle's intention; for he had only in view the ordinary dispensation of God, and did not intend to prescribe a law for the distribution of his grace."

If Calvin is correct, this would moot the OP.

Right--God is not bound by his own ordinances. They are, however, ordinances. We shouldn't expect him to work apart from them (they are what he revealed he would use), but we shouldn't despise the work of God when he chooses to use extraordinary means, like those in the Middle East who are being converted through visions. Sometimes he even works apart from means altogether, as with children regenerated in the womb.

Edit: Note that Calvin doesn't address the matter of people who are not ministers evangelizing here--he only maintains that God, as the WCF puts it, "works when, and where, and how He pleases" (note that the quote from the WCF is given in the context of "elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word" ).

 

[Jeri Tanner]

"But what was the laity's obligation to the unconverted? The exposition of the law of God and the Lord's Prayer in the catechisms provide the Assembly's answer. While dealing with the law of God, the Standards point out the believer's duty irrespective of the spiritual condition of those to whom the duty is due. Regarding prayer, note particularly the Westminster Larger Catechism, Question 191, and the Westminster Shorter Catechism, Question 102. Christians are "to pray ... that ... the gospel [be] propagated throughout the world" and that "ourselves and others [be] brought into [the kingdom of grace]."

"The Assembly had within it those who advocated a modern view of evangelism and it rejected their position.[12] It faced the question of the laity's relationship to the unconverted; its answer was to do good, live circumspectly, and offer prayer."

Prayer. What did Christ tell his disciples to do about the fields white for the harvest? He told them to pray that God would send forth laborers. This is where we as lay people (and of course this charge to pray is to those in ministry as well) do the great, secret work we're called to. What does the angel in Revelation pour out of the vial when the work is completed? The prayers of the saints. This is how we co-labor in the cause of Christ. We fail to labor in tears and pleadings for this sending forth of laborers, because we think we think as lay members that we're the laborers. Our modern views on evangelism mess everything up- our prayers, our assurance regarding our duty as lay members, and our witness! because we're undermining God's appointed means of spreading the gospel. Get his appointed means right, and our interactions with unbelievers will be right. And our prayers will bear fruit.

 

[Dachaser]

Lots of words are being tossed around here, though I don't believe people are processing.

Evangelism is an characteristic of an office and officer. Most believe this office to be abrogated-some denoms still use it for their ordained men who are in field ministry. The term is restricted to officers.

Commission: think of an officer in our militaries that are 'commissioned'. The great commission was given to the officers of the church. All God's people that make up the body function in the commission; some secondarily, i.e. laypeople, and primarily, i.e. officers.

I don't believe anyone has said in this thread that only officers are to speak about Christ but that we need to be consistent with our verbiage. Don't call it preaching and don't call it evangelizing. Feel free to call it what it is, sharing, witnessing, etc.

God uses His bride to distribute the means of grace every Lord's day. It is here where the gsoepl is officially disseminated. The WCF tells us that outside of the church, 'there is no ordinary possibility of salvation.'. The Divines make mention of this, because it is integral to the gospel message.

Jeri made mention of:



The above is true and the reason we have this thing is secondarily to the Arminian/dispensational error on two fronts.
1) The idea of rushing out to give the gospel so as none fall through the cracks and 2) the idea that when the last Gentile is saved, Christ will return, i.e. the 'fulfillment of the gentiles has come in'.

There is the position of being called as an Evangelist, and also all Christians are commanded to evangelize for Christ, by being those who by both words and deeds are faithful witnesses to Him, living Epistles as Peter calls all of us.

 

[Dachaser]

Tim, I believe the ministry of the Church is to call people to faith and repentance. That in no way means that individual Christians shouldn't speak to people. I do encourage you to read the articles I linked to.

All of us as saved are to be witnesses of the Gospel by word and deed, and there are also those gifted and called as Evangelists. All are to witness, but not all gifted to do the work as an Evangelist.

 

[Dachaser]

So may we read Rom 10:14 with it "exclusive statement" and the whole of scripture to see if one can believe through the means of a "dorm buddy"? I don't know one instance that this exception is granted, and my "narrow" thinking is formed by scripture, which also is confirmed by experience conta to many who think they were converted by unordinary means.

Any sinner saved is ordinarily converted by the holy spirit using the Gospel message, and all of us have the privileged to be used by God to lead someone to Jesus.

 

[Dachaser]

"But what was the laity's obligation to the unconverted? The exposition of the law of God and the Lord's Prayer in the catechisms provide the Assembly's answer. While dealing with the law of God, the Standards point out the believer's duty irrespective of the spiritual condition of those to whom the duty is due. Regarding prayer, note particularly the Westminster Larger Catechism, Question 191, and the Westminster Shorter Catechism, Question 102. Christians are "to pray ... that ... the gospel [be] propagated throughout the world" and that "ourselves and others [be] brought into [the kingdom of grace]."

"The Assembly had within it those who advocated a modern view of evangelism and it rejected their position.[12] It faced the question of the laity's relationship to the unconverted; its answer was to do good, live circumspectly, and offer prayer."

Prayer. What did Christ tell his disciples to do about the fields white for the harvest? He told them to pray that God would send forth laborers. This is where we as lay people (and of course this charge to pray is to those in ministry as well) do the great, secret work we're called to. What does the angel in Revelation pour out of the vial when the work is completed? The prayers of the saints. This is how we co-labor in the cause of Christ. We fail to labor in tears and pleadings for this sending forth of laborers, because we think we think as lay members that we're the laborers. Our modern views on evangelism mess everything up- our prayers, our assurance regarding our duty as lay members, and our witness! because we're undermining God's appointed means of spreading the gospel. Get his appointed means right, and our interactions with unbelievers will be right. And our prayers will bear fruit.

I still do not see where the scriptures themselves make such a large division between the clergy and the laity in regards to being used to evangelize the lost. i would tend to see it as the Lord using laity to witness , and the clergy to train and mature those now saved in the faith.

 

[Gforce9]

I still do not see where the scriptures themselves make such a large division between the clergy and the laity in regards to being used to evangelize the lost. i would tend to see it as the Lord using laity to witness , and the clergy to train and mature those now saved in the faith.

This is the good expression highlighting the difference between the confessionally Reformed and pop-Evangelicalism

 

[Scott Bushey]

Greg,
Agreed. God is a God of divine order; this is where systematics come in. God is a great engineer!

 

[BG]

It is the RC view also.

This is the good expression highlighting the difference between the confessionally Reformed and pop-Evangelicalism

The work of the ministry is to be done by the people of the church. It is not the shepherd who reproduce but it is the sheep who reproduce.

 

[Gforce9]

It is the RC view also.


The work of the ministry is to be done by the people of the church. It is not the shepherd who reproduce but it is the sheep who reproduce.

Bill,
I believe that pastors are called "Ministers of the Gospel" for a reason. I agree the laity have a function; an important one, like prayer, financial support, hospitality,..., but as Tyler has said well, there are things entrusted to the officers alone. I am unconvinced of the popular notions of the priesthood of believers. I am open to hearing others arguments, but they had best be good ones....

 

[TylerRay]

It is the RC view also.


The work of the ministry is to be done by the people of the church. It is not the shepherd who reproduce but it is the sheep who reproduce.

Sheep reproducing is fine, but don't leave it up to the sheep to find lost sheep!

 

[Jeri Tanner]

Tyler, I'd say that the term sheep reproducing as fitting for lay members, puts us right back in the lay evangelism mode. I wouldn't doubt that lay members 'find' more lost sheep than pastors do. I would say that the terminology we use concerning the witness of lay members should carefully accord with Scripture.

 

[TylerRay]

Tyler, I want to go on record as holding out that the term sheep reproducing as fitting for lay members, puts us right back in the lay evangelism mode. I wouldn't doubt that lay members 'find' more lost sheep than pastors do. I would say that the terminology we use concerning the witness of lay members should carefully accord with Scripture.

Jeri,
Sorry, I was being facetious and equivocating. By sheep reproducing, I was thinking of the Church growing through the growth of Christian families, contra Bill's use of the metaphor in reference to evangelism.

Happily, I haven't had any qualms with anything I've read from you on this thread. I think we're very much on the same page.

 

[Jeri Tanner]

Jeri,
Sorry, I was being facetious and equivocating. By sheep reproducing, I was thinking of the Church growing through the growth of Christian families, contra Bill's use of the metaphor in reference to evangelism.

Happily, I haven't had any qualms with anything I've read from you on this thread. I think we're very much on the same page.

Ah, I see! Sorry- my humor detector must be fogged. Wish I'd caught it, that's pretty good.

 

[Cymro]

Perhaps much of the debate is waylaid by the
terms used. To lead to Christ has Billy Graham connotations, it might be better if the expression was, to point to Christ. Which we all are to do by lip and life. I seem to remember that Lloyd Jones when touching on Acts8:4 stated, that on the scattering of believers they went everywhere “gossiping the gospel”,and thereby made a distinction to preaching. This is exampled with Bunyan, who stood behind two housewives who were gossiping the gospel to each other, and the arrows of the King penetrated. It is the privilege of every child of God to hold forth the word of life according to their ability, but the instituted office of a Minister of the gospel is a privilege that is not to be undermined.

 

[Jack K]

Edit to add: that I believe as I know do all of us, that God does use our words with others even as he uses our way of life lived out before others.

Yes. This is all I've been looking for. An acknowledgment that God might use our words, so that we don't end up saying, "No, it is not possible that you were converted through a talk with your layman roommate."

 

[BG]

Bill,
I believe that pastors are called "Ministers of the Gospel" for a reason. I agree the laity have a function; an important one, like prayer, financial support, hospitality,..., but as Tyler has said well, there are things entrusted to the officers alone. I am unconvinced of the popular notions of the priesthood of believers. I am open to hearing others arguments, but they had best be good ones....

So believers are not priests? That is an interesting thought.

Sheep reproducing is fine, but don't leave it up to the sheep to find lost sheep!

You believe it is the ministers job to GO and FIND the lost?

 

[TylerRay]

You believe it is the ministers job to GO and FIND the lost?

I believe it is their job (or part of their job) to minister the Gospel to unbelievers.

 

[Dachaser]

This is the good expression highlighting the difference between the confessionally Reformed and pop-Evangelicalism

I would still like to see the scriptures used to define that just clergy are used to evangelize, as they seem to have the ministers much more working with the saints, and not the lost.

 

[Dachaser]

It is the RC view also.


The work of the ministry is to be done by the people of the church. It is not the shepherd who reproduce but it is the sheep who reproduce.

The Holy Spirit uses the laity to spread the good news to the lost, and the clergy to instruct and them them once saved.

 

[Dachaser]

Bill,
I believe that pastors are called "Ministers of the Gospel" for a reason. I agree the laity have a function; an important one, like prayer, financial support, hospitality,..., but as Tyler has said well, there are things entrusted to the officers alone. I am unconvinced of the popular notions of the priesthood of believers. I am open to hearing others arguments, but they had best be good ones....

We Baptists do see the priesthood of believers are being found in the Bible though.

 

[Dachaser]

I believe it is their job (or part of their job) to minister the Gospel to unbelievers.

The pastors main task seems to be to instruct andf teach and edify the saved though.